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2016 Madone vs. 2016 Venge VIAS

19K views 47 replies 12 participants last post by  Dagger9903 
#1 ·
#2 · (Edited)
Tour Magazine agreed, and essentially for the same reasons... but it scored them both the same in the wind tunnel, rather than giving Venge a slight edge.

I feel like the differences still maybe make it a tossup, depending on how you fit on one or the other ... and personal taste.
I disagree on the aesthetics ... I give the VIAS an edge, but I'm prob in minority on that.

It was interesting in this story that we finally got something close to straight talk on the VIAS's brake issues. I suspect that they did the usual bike press thing and pulled the punch a little, but even allowing for that it wouldn't be enough to keep me off the bike.
Cavendish and Sagan disagree I guess, but they're just uh....world champions.
 
#3 ·
Lol. Yeah, I guess I am the opposite. I appreciate what both bring to the table, but I like the Madone design a lot more and don't like the look of the front end of the VIAS much at all. But if we are talking absolute beauty, the De Rosa SK Pininfarina has to be in the discussion and near the top IMO. I have no idea what the wind tunnel numbers on that bike (and I kind of don't care all that much to be honest).
 
#5 ·
It seems like these two and the Cervelo S5 are the big 3 when it comes to aerodynamics. I think the S5 is supposed to be the lightest and most aero overall. It's also the most affordable, but there aren't that many colors available.
 
#6 ·
Don't forget the Felt AR FRD and the Canyon Aeroad (unfortunately not sold directly here in USA currently).

Cervelo. Felt. Trek. Specialized. Canyon.

Pick your priority of price, weight, comfort, aero, proprietary parts, ease of purchase....etc. Those 5 are very close aero wise.


Edit: I believe you can also throw in the BMC Time Machine, Giant Propel and the new Scott Foil into that list. So make it 8.
 
#11 ·
Good stuff, I guess my feelings on the Felt are that it's a really nice bike, but I don't have to think about the electronic and mechanical thing at all with these other bikes. They also seem to have superior cable routing systems (which always seems to be a disappointment with Felt bikes). I guess in my mind it's sort of outdated to have to choose at all, but to each his own.
 
#24 ·
Maybe you don't see it, but you are still doing the same thing (which is fine by me to be honest).

I never expressed an interest in a 1x set-up, nor did I mention eTap. You are still discussing De Rosa and whether the SK is an innovative design or something new as if that is in some way germaine to the discusion we were having. It is clear that you are only mentioning all of those things to push the Felt.

If you are going to quote me, at least capture what I said:

"Good point, but I often disregard the Canyon bikes because they aren't a real option here as you indicated above. I like the look of the Felt AR a lot, but I am not a fan of the rear brake placement and the fact that you have to choose a mechanical or electronic frameset at all, so that one is kind of out for me as well. The AR1 comes in at a great price though."

Maybe I was less than clear, but that is the point in the conversation where I shifted from talking about aero data to personal preference and ease of purchase. I like the Felt, but not as much as you and not enough for it to make the list of my top 3 aero road bikes. There is no big 4 for me, sorry to dissapoint you.

"[Y]ou are doing this forum and community a disservice and that needs to be pointed out with the reality of the matter." Please tell me you are kidding when you say this, right? Everything said in here is just a matter of opinion. What I have said is clearly just one guy's thoughts on this and I have acknowledged that over and over throughout the thread. It actually appears to be you that is under the impression that your word is gospel that must be adopted by others. The Felt has nice wind tunnel numbers and is a fine design, but based on my own personal preferences, I do not consider it to be among the top three aero bikes on the road and as an individual that gets to make up his own mind about such topics, I am entitled to reach that conclusion. There is no chart or aero test that is going to make me like a rear brake placed behind a bb. Nor is there any chart or aero test that is going to make me interested in buying a $4000 frameset that I have to run a 1x set-up on if I want to go mechanical on in 2016, sorry. I think eTap is great by the way, but there are too many options out there at that price point that allow me to run whatever system I want to consider the AR FRD among my top 3. I'm not buying what you are selling and it is what it is....
 
#28 ·
Ride them all and I think you'll see that the only choice is the Trek. It's as fast as any of them but it rides better than any of their non-aero bikes. Smoother, better handling, better front end stability. Add the P1 program so you can get spec and fit ala'carte and nothing else compares.

The Trek and Specialized are the only next-gen aero road bikes in terms of integration and purpose specific engineering and design. The rest are decidedly last generation. While the VIAS is as fast in a wind tunnel, it's not in the same league in any other aspect. Heavier (a lot..), harsh ride and marginal brakes. People who are paid to ride it refuse to.
 
#29 ·
Yes to your first paragraph, with the caveat that a bike has to fit you.

As to the madone and VIAS version of venge being the only next-gen aero bikes ... i understand where you're coming from, what with the hidden cables and brakes.
But if you don't value those things, or feel like they are balanced out by the difficulties they create, then that's not exactly true. the Trek is a first-gen aero bike for that company, and kudos for knocking it out of the park on the first try.
The Venge is the second generation. And so is the S5, which is much different from the first gen S5... , it's just a year ahead of Specialized and Trek in the design cycle.
The Scott also is a second generation aero bike, with smart changes...
The third generation will likely yield pretty small aero improvements, especially for the top frames in the wind tunnel, but focus much more on getting the weight down and ride quality up as the others chase the Madone's advantages in those areas, particularly ride quality.
That isolation was a slick, slick move to deal with what is the chief complaint about aero frames for many, though not me.
But if you define that by
 
#30 ·
I wasn't referring to generation as revision cycles (though the last-gen Madone was their 1st aero road bike) but generations of clear division between a lower level of design and refinement and a clearly higher one.

There will continue to be "last gen" aero bikes released in upcoming model years.
 
#31 ·
I understand your points, but honest people can disagree, and I for one do. I think I would have agreed, based on appearance and number of new features, claimed performance edge etc... until the Tour and Velo pieces and the aero numbers were clear. The S5 is probably as fast or faster than the Venge in the real world, depending on where you ride and some of the others were close enough that the performance advantage vs. the top five or six bikes may either not be there or be insignificant...
Out of the box thinking doesn't necessarily count as a generation of advancement if it doesn't quite work (see: Chevrolet Corsair). So, the brakes on the Venge, maybe not. If its successful design advances mainly consist of dropped seat stays and an integrated cockpit, well, there are other bikes that have the same.
Are the tucked away cables a significant positive advance? If tour says some of the other bikes, including the S5, are that close (1 watt?)... that's arguable.

It does seem flatly clear that the Madone has the edge because it does so many things so well... including smoothed in brakes that work and and that isolating seat system, which sounds like a step forward. Think the argument is stronger that it is "next gen", and you could also argue, based on the results of its various innovations, that it may be the only bike that is.

the previous Madone wasn't really an aero bike. More an all-arounder that actually admitted such a thing as drag exists. Kamm approach was not particularly innovative it was more of an R3 / R5 than S3 / S5.
Hell, even the Tarmac has tried to get drag down, but that does't make it an aero bike.
 
#32 ·
Hell, even the Tarmac has tried to get drag down, but that does't make it an aero bike.
I once read Chris Yu talking about that very point somewhere (I will try to find it). Orbea also made similar design choices with the new Orca. It's not truly an aero bike, but they used shapes that reduce drag. The same can be said of both the new SS Evo Hi Mod and the new Giant TCR, but on those models the sizing of tubes was simply reduced to decrease both weight and drag.
 
#36 ·
Bicycle tire Tire Wheel Bicycle wheel rim Bicycle frame


Madone Project One, with Lightweight wheels

Some vital stats:

Ride really nice for an aero bike. The isospeed feature is real, it's immediately noticable upon riding the bike. I would go further to say that the Isospeed feature is one of the things that makes this bike stands out from the rest of the other aero bikes (hard to put a price on speed and comfort). The integrate brakes direct mount and are solid, not like the Venge Vias.

Some cons about the bike (when compared to a regular road bike). Integrate brakes are definitely harder to install and adjust that the typical calipers from Shimano, Sram. Running the brake housing is also a b*tch. Running the Di2 cables take some planning (need to get longer cables (additional $50) and different Di2 junction box (additional $100)). Headset spacers are also a little cumbersome. Everything is so integrated that once the bike is assembled, it's hard to change anything. I wouldn't want to travel with this bike due to the cumbersome of installing the headset spacers (yes, they are really cumbersome).

I'm beginning to think that Sram Etap, or any future wireless shifting system, is a must for any highly integrated aero bike. It's priceless not having to run the electrical cables. But alas, you still need to run brake cables, unless they invent wireless brakes too.

I would say that between the solid brakes and Isospeed features, Madone P1 owns the Venge Vias, hands down.

And I hope that Trek will never ever make a disc-brake version of this bike. Disc would totally ruin its look.

Weight? this is a size 52, and it's under UCI weight limit.

Cost? You don't wanna know. Clavicula crank is coming though.
 
#38 · (Edited)
At the LBS where this frame was purchased, the rep said they don't give bro deals to their sponsored riders on the P1. We're not their sponsored rider. But they ended up giving us a nice discount that is inline with most bro deals at this level. But we also paid cash. If you bring cash, you'll get bro deal or very close to it! We shopped at 2 local trek dealers and found out the saving difference was over $500.

I knew this build would be light compared to other aero bikes past and present, but I was pleasantly surprised when she hit the scale at just a hair over 14.5 lbs. The Clavicula crank will knock it under 14.5 for sure.

My wish for Trek. Make lighter brakes for P1 frame please. They could have used some carbon fiber in making these brakes (eg, the brake covers, brake arms), and yes carbon fiber brakes would probably raise the price up probably another $500, but the currently calipers feel like boat anchors on this sort of build. Wish there were lighter aftermarket brakes, but alas being integrated these brakes are proprietary.

btw, the Serotta Ottrott in the background rides just as nice, smoother in fact, and just as fast if you can push close to 400w ;-) , and no I do not feel any more flexing on the Serotta than on the Trek. But no doubt the trek is more aero, and the placebo effect of riding the trek gains me another 5 mph, I feel ;-)
 
#40 · (Edited)
H1, bike size 52. I think the P1 has a relatively tall headtube for even smaller sizes.

I know a guy with a Storck and using pretty much using the lightest components available to buy, and in size 48 it weighs like 10.5 lbs. That's so crazy. Cost on his build is close to $20k.

I've never been a big fan of Trek. Always have found their bikes to be boring with average quality. In other words, nothing special. However, with this new Madone, they hit a homerun IMO. They did almost everything right from the start. The aero features are legit and not gimmicky, real aero R&D science went into this frame. The craftsmanship is quality, paint job is quality. Their Asian frames don't have the same craftsmanship quality and feel. And if there's one thing that could put the icing on the cake is if they had made their brake calipers using carbon fiber, which would make a homerun into almost a grandslam IMO. I hate to bag on their brakes calipers because for integrated brakes they are solid performers,.. but really they're boat anchors at this level,.. and sadly we can't change them out.

Compare this Madone to the other equivalently priced highend frames such as C60, Evo, F8, Vias, I'd say you're getting more of your money's worth in this latest Madone, quite easily hands down, if we're comparing it "overall". But since this thread is about Vias vs Madone, I'll say this personally, the ride quality of the Madone dominates the Vias, easily hands down! This alone makes the Madone a winner over the Vias. Specialized was so focused on aero that they completely lost sight of comfort, and got blindsided by the Trek IMO.
 
#41 ·
Ah my size.. Eventhough I could go 54 if I had too. Was hoping the TT would be a little less sloped but I guess H2 would be worse. Anyways love it.. Agree with the US made comment .. My wife had a series 6 Madone when the six was still done in the US
 
#42 ·
The fact the Madone is being ridden in the classics (cobbles) and winning + hardly any pros are seen on the Venge ViAS. The Trek is the clear winner between the two bikes imo and if I had to pick one of them the Madone is the clear choice.

I don't know if there has been a bigger "fail" in terms of R&D and marketing spent than the ViAS.
 
#47 ·
The way theyve designed it is really slick and having fitted di2 on it myself its easy to do and not as difficult as some of the reviews say. Much prefer it to the Canyon and other cockpit layouts. Will be interesting to see if its a design Trek stick with or if other manufacturers follow the same. Mechanical though would be a pain.
 
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