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  1. #26
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    Are Ultegra 6800 Hubs available in Disc now?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migen21 View Post
    Are Ultegra 6800 Hubs available in Disc now?
    Shoot! I forgot he has discs. No, they are not and I doubt they will ever be.

    The OP mentioned R45 not R45D which is the centerlock or ring drive version of the R45. Anyway, my bad......the equivalent in the Shimano line would be the XT centerlock; only in 32h though.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  3. #28
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    Ok, mea culpa - I just looked at November Wheels custom disc clinchers - 28/28 HED Belgium Plus clincher with bladed spokes, brass nipples on White T11's and custom built by November Dave himself for just a tad over $900 (Dave am I seeing this right)?

    OP, go buy those wheels.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    I bolded and underlined a segment of your post because I'll attempt to make this the focus of my post.

    I have several CK R45 hubs and I do really like them for what they are. Every time I take them apart to oil them I remind myself how Impressed I am of how they are put together. If there is one thing I dont like about them is the constant attention their preset needs and at this note I would offer my opinion that the CK R45 (or the T11 for that matter) is not the right hub for what you are starting out to do.

    The hub I would use if I was at your position (and I have been close to it, BTW) is the Ultegra 6800. Its a very durable, set-and-forget. Maybe you grease it once a year if you get caught riding in the rain. It's not very popular because of its availability only in 32 or 36h and its weight but rest assured the extra 80 or so grams will not affect you one bit.

    Later on its quite possible your focus will be on other cycling related aspects and that time may be more appropriate for more "racy" oriented stuff like the CK Racing45.

    Just my $0.02 having been there...
    dcgriz... yes my fault. I just shortened the CK R45 on my own ignorance because I had no clue on the difference in nomenclature.

    My future plans, if this information helps, will never to race but to only include centuries for causes. I liked to do the Amtrak (SoCal) century from Irvine to San Diego and they also had a wounded warrior project century but it was never as large as the amtrak one. Now, that I moved to North Dallas... the only one Im aware of is the hotter than hell but this heat is something I have never dealt with so I need to learn where I stand after I get some semblance of getting back to 100 miles. Im 46 years old and the most I hope to obtain is maybe a gravel ride someday other than the centuries.

    Of course, I would like to research options, in regards to hubs or even possibly a replacement rim for the velocity? HED Belgiums were what I had on my Cervelo R3 and that lasted me 5 years so thats pretty much the main reason why Im following it up with another HED rim. The Chris King R45D hubs come in orange, (I know... kinda stupid reason, but I thought why not match the hub to the bike for some aesthetic niceties?) but the option is going with the White Industries only for the stronger freehub. If titanium is actually stronger than a CK alu hub?

    edit: I forgot to mention that the shop stated that they would give me credit for the existing wheelset on either the BMC RM 01 or the Trek Domane that I plan to purchase. Also, they were willing to give me 10% off the price as long as I order the wheels the same day as the bike. So, that should cut some expense on the wheels somewhat. The shop said that they have a "master wheelbuilder" but I have no clue what the "master" portion means other than typical sales lingo. So, overall, I think the price of the new wheelset will not totally kill the budget since I will have the percentage plus credit from the stock wheelset. /crossing-fingers

  5. #30
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    As I understand it, the benefit of a Titanium freehub body is that it's less susceptible to being 'notched' by the cassette rings, which can be problem for big powerful riders. Aluminum is more susceptible.

    Here is a picture of a severely notched freehub body I found randomly on the Internet.



    When they get notched like this, the cassette cog rings can rotate and cause issues, and not to mention it can make getting the cassette off pretty challenging.

    That said, I don't think aluminum freehub bodies are a deal breaker (I guess that is obvious for me). Quite a few manufacturers use freehub bodies made from aluminum. If you aren't andre griepel and keep your cassette torqued down tight, I don't think you are going to have too much trouble.

    Also, this is a replaceable part.

    The one in my 15k mile wheelset have some signs of notching, but nothing severe enough to warrant replacing it. I'm definitely not making Andre Griepel power, and my knees don't love climbing, so I mostly stick to flats and rollers unless I'm on a charity ride or something.
    Last edited by Migen21; 02-25-2017 at 12:59 PM.

  6. #31
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    Put some spokes in your wheel. At 270 you really need all you can get. THe gains may be little, but they are still gains. We always had a saying when building motors, You can't argue with Cubic inches.

    I would never recommend 28 tiny bladed spokes to someone of your size.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch562 View Post
    Put some spokes in your wheel. At 270 you really need all you can get. THe gains may be little, but they are still gains. We always had a saying when building motors, You can't argue with Cubic inches.

    I would never recommend 28 tiny bladed spokes to someone of your size.
    Did you read November Dave's post (Post #4 in this thread), or any of my personal experiences with 28/28's at 270lbs?

    36h and even 32h spokes are really overkill for most general purpose road cycling applications (again, see Daves comments about diminishing returns).

    Maybe if you are out riding in the wilderness and your life depends on your ability to ride home, it might be worth doing, but for daily rides out of your garage, on your local roads, it's really not necessary to go that high in most cases.

  8. #33
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    Sounds about right. But... Normally this isn't the kind of thing I'd ever do on a forum but this also isn't the kind of thing that happens normally. Anyhow, a guy bought a set of HED Belgium+ Disc with red WI CLD hubs in November (great month) then promptly blew his back out and probably will never be able to use them. He's in SD area. We'd agreed to list them as this week's featured build on our site, but this is literally a perfect fit here - right wheels, seems like a local-ish situation...

    He will sell them for roughly 20% off his original cost. The wheels have never even had tires installed.

    PM me for details if you'd like, OP

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migen21 View Post
    Did you read November Dave's post (Post #4 in this thread), or any of my personal experiences with 28/28's at 270lbs?

    36h and even 32h spokes are really overkill for most general purpose road cycling applications (again, see Daves comments about diminishing returns).

    Maybe if you are out riding in the wilderness and your life depends on your ability to ride home, it might be worth doing, but for daily rides out of your garage, on your local roads, it's really not necessary to go that high in most cases.
    What Dave would do and I would do are 2 different things. He doesn't build my wheels.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Good observations & opinions as usual ND. I've had King hubs (still have 'em on my MTB) for about 20 years and it's never been about "extra longevity" above other hubs. It's always about 1) I want 'em, 2) I can afford 'em, 3) my Mrs is ok with the purchase. Nothing else. One thing about them that gets coffee-shop bragging points (or rolled eyes) is that King makes ball bearings in house. Who else does that eh?

    I would never buy them again though as I know that less expensive hubs will do what I need from them - even BHS type hubs.

    I'm not getting any deeper into the "wheelbuilding" aspects of this thread as the topics are non-arguable and at least you and Griz has it sorted.

    But someone might enjoy this pic. It's an old early '90s Bontrager offset rear MTB rim of mine. The ferrule didn't stop this nipple hole from cracking. The radial crack (diagnosed by hacksaw) was along the base of a radial web that linked the two faces of the rim. The anecdote to go along with it is that it's the last rim of mine that ever suffered a cracked nipple hole. All my non-eyelet rims and eyeletted Open Pros have never cracked.


    Wait a minute!

    Easy to see the original crack was along the rim to the side of the spoke hole, then as the rim weakened, the spoke pulled the rim and eyelet up and caused the radial crack. This is obvious from the length of the parallel crack, which is much further along than the radial crack off the hole.

    So in this pix the eyelet didn't make a difference. The rim alloy was so weak, it didn't separate at the hole, but alongside. The rim couldn't hold its shape against the tug of the spoke.

    Agree, eyelets are probably used to strengthen the spoke holes on cheap alloy rims, but in 35 years, 8 of them meching in shops, I only ran into rims splitting radially beneath the eyelets a few times. I encountered cracked rims around non-eyeleted spoke holes much more frequently. As I never knew how strong the alloys used in a given replacement rim would be, and also treated rims as replaceable as hubs always outlast rims, I've always taken the eyelet route.

    I'm also quite skeptical that enlarging the holes to accommodate eyelets provides a LESS durable wheel. The strength is determined by how snug the nipple seats on the spoke hole/eyelet, not necessarily the diameter of the hole. Spokes in eyeleted rims are quite strong, as the nipple is wider than the spoke and has more area to seat on, making it as strong as the alloy, brass, and stainless steel materials provide.

    Properly tensioned, the eyeleted rims I've encountered have always held up longer than non-eyeleted ones. If we're talking about loads of 270#, this is a good reason to go with eyelets. Add a few more spokes, like go to 36, the problem of rim deformation goes down even more.

    The spokes hold the wheel true, not the rims. The fewer the spokes, the more the rim has to take up the stress. The weaker the link created by the spokes becomes, and if one breaks, forget truing with a spoke wrench and pedaling home. You're done. Call home.

    Bontragers were crap, witness this one breaking outside the spoke hole first. So this is a bad example if one is trying to prove a point.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 02-25-2017 at 02:28 PM.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch562 View Post
    What Dave would do and I would do are 2 different things. He doesn't build my wheels.
    To clarify, I wouldn't recommend 28/28 for the Op or someone his size. Chances are it would be fine so long as they're very well built. There is a point of diminishing returns in lateral stiffness at 28, but there are still other things that happen that 32 would help with.

    I checked the set I mentioned and they're 28/28, I'd thought they were28/32.

    Largely because a good built on a Belgium+ rim (and to further clarify, a Belgium+ is a better rim than a regular Belgium - the tooling for the B+ must just be about perfect) allows for something approaching perfectly even spoke tension, all the spokes are hard at work all the time. I believe that that difference to a Velocity rim, which in my experience can't be built to as uniform a spoke tension, makes the B+ 32 a straight up better wheel than a 36h Dyad.

    We also spec heavier gauge spokes on the loaded side of wheels. The benefit to stiffness is debatable but the benefit to stability of the build seems to have proven itself beyond doubt in our experience.

    A couple of people sent PMs about theeheels, I'll be able to return them Monday. Unplugging now and racing tomorrow. Because when it's 55* in February why not have a race?

    Oh - R45 is so named because it has a 45 point ratchet mechanism. Not because it's a racing hub.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    .........snipped

    Oh - R45 is so named because it has a 45 point ratchet mechanism. Not because it's a racing hub.
    I tried to illustrate the point that the OP does not need a hub designed for racing applications.

    If you dont believe me that the R45 is such hub, then you may believe the manufacturer; from the CK website:

    PRODUCT DETAILS
    When we set out to design our R45 hub we had over 30 years of bearing experience and 20 years of building hubs under our belts. The R45 is the culmination of that experience; we focused on creating a lightweight road racing hub that utilized hallmarks of Chris King components: precision, performance, and quality. Our R45 rear hub combines a redesigned RingDrive™ system with 45 teeth for lower drag and near instant engagement with a lightweight hub body and our legendary made-in-house bearings.


    The R45 release followed the now called Classic for the purpose of addressing what was stated above.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanpole View Post
    No, it won't.
    The "stress relieve" will happen during the ride, the spoke snaps back and you end up with a wheel that is out of true.
    Thanks for the correction. Yes, the preferable way is to overturn the spoke more than needed and turn back to take out the twist, rather than holding it with a metal tool. Don't crimp that sucker.

    Also didn't mention the obvious: after stress relieving the spokes by pressing the rim sideways all around, you have to true it again, this time not a lot, so its easier to get it right turning the wrench and backing off with each adjustment. I always found this easy on straight gauge spokes, more difficult on butted spokes. They twist in the middle 1.5 section more than at the ends.

    So yeah, the wheels should be stress relived before riding on them, that's for sure. Twisted spokes straightening under rider loads may not break initially, but they'll get scored at the bends and break down miles later on the road. I also go around the rim and squeeze the spokes with the hands, then check the true, before considering the wheel ready for mounting on the bike.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    To clarify, I wouldn't recommend 28/28 for the Op or someone his size. Chances are it would be fine so long as they're very well built. There is a point of diminishing returns in lateral stiffness at 28, but there are still other things that happen that 32 would help with.
    November Dave... FYI, I plan on keeping a 32h front/rear. Migen was only using his personal example of using a 28h.

    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    Largely because a good built on a Belgium+ rim (and to further clarify, a Belgium+ is a better rim than a regular Belgium - the tooling for the B+ must just be about perfect) allows for something approaching perfectly even spoke tension, all the spokes are hard at work all the time. I believe that that difference to a Velocity rim, which in my experience can't be built to as uniform a spoke tension, makes the B+ 32 a straight up better wheel than a 36h Dyad.
    I also appreciate this info and makes me feel alot comfortable in going with the HED B+ 32h rim.

    In regards to the hub... racing or not, I just liked the hub for its color possibilities to match the bike. I really dont care for a "super light" hub but again Im just looking for more durable and bombproof hubs. In this thread, I think the CKs have been proven to have great durability as long a Im not treating them hard! My rides will primarily be on the road losing weight... not jumping off curbs or tree stumps! =)

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    The fewer the spokes, the more the rim has to take up the stress. The weaker the link created by the spokes becomes, and if one breaks, forget truing with a spoke wrench and pedaling home. You're done. Call home.

    Bontragers were crap, witness this one breaking outside the spoke hole first. So this is a bad example if one is trying to prove a point.
    I broke a spoke on one of the infamous Bontrager paired spoke wheels mid-ride. It was a 24 spoke rear. To be fair, I was able to true the wheel well enough to ride 30 more miles without any brake or stay rub. Took the bike to my shop that evening and he found the spoke hole cracks. Junk at only 4K miles and I'm only 170lbs!
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtiClydesdale View Post
    In this thread, I think the CKs have been proven to have great durability as long a Im not treating them hard! My rides will primarily be on the road losing weight... not jumping off curbs or tree stumps! =)
    They are durable. But so are pretty much all decent hubs so durability isn't a reason to pay the premium for CK over, say, White Industries.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Thanks for the correction. Yes, the preferable way is to overturn the spoke more than needed and turn back to take out the twist, rather than holding it with a metal tool. Don't crimp that sucker.

    Also didn't mention the obvious: after stress relieving the spokes by pressing the rim sideways all around, you have to true it again, this time not a lot, so its easier to get it right turning the wrench and backing off with each adjustment. I always found this easy on straight gauge spokes, more difficult on butted spokes. They twist in the middle 1.5 section more than at the ends.

    So yeah, the wheels should be stress relived before riding on them, that's for sure. Twisted spokes straightening under rider loads may not break initially, but they'll get scored at the bends and break down miles later on the road. I also go around the rim and squeeze the spokes with the hands, then check the true, before considering the wheel ready for mounting on the bike.
    I have never had to do a "follow up" truing after the first ride. Anybody who says you have to do this is not stress relieving their wheels properly.

    Granted I have never built wheels with 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes. The builds I have done are with DT Competitions (2.0/1.8/2.0) and DT Aero Comps (2.0/2.3-1.2/2.0). Aero Comps are a bit more expensive, but a breeze to build with compared to round spokes as you can instantly see the spoke wind.

    I follow Mike T.'s stress relieving bible here:

    Optimizing your spokes -

    Method 1. Perform this once only, just after you have got a fair amount of tension in the wheels. Where the "heads in" spokes exit the hubs – take the plastic tipped hammer and tap the spoke bend a little flatter. This does not take much effort. You can also use your thumb to flatten this curve when lacing these "heads in" spokes. They will reach the rim easier and better. You're actually bending the spoke where it exits the hub. You need to do this so that the spoke contains no residual tension due to this curve. Verrrry important!

    Method 2. Perform this after every "round" of truing or tensioning. Grasp parallel pairs of spokes on each side – one pair in each hand - while wearing leather gloves and squeeze them in the hands as hard as you can. Go all around the wheel once.

    Method 3. Perform once. Take the screwdriver handle and slightly twist the final spoke crosses around each other. Be gentle here. Place the screwdriver handle in the final cross and above it, press down slightly and twist the two spokes around each other. This is not really a "twist" but just a slight, very slight bending. The spokes will do this themselves if you don't do it but then they might lose a minute bit of tension too.

    Method 4. Do this after each "round" of added tension - press downinto the final spokecrossing, from the rim side of the cross, towards the hub. I use an old screwdriver handle for this (it's my nipple driver above).Use a screwdriver handle, an old LH crank or a wooden dowel (like a 6" piece of old broom handle).

    Method 5. Do this once after you have a fair amount of tension on the spokes. Take a thin punch and a hammer. Tap the head of each spoke to seat the head squarely in the hub flange. I said "tap"................not "pound the **** out of". We're just seating the head in the flange and aligning the head.

    Method 6. Place wheel flat on floor with the rim part nearest to you touching the floor. A piece of cardboard or carpet will prevent the QR from scratches. With hands at 9 & 3 o'clock, press down gently but firmly and quickly. Rotate wheel 1/8th turn & repeat for one full turn of the wheel. Turn wheel over and repeat. The pings you hear are spokes unwinding. But if you have identified and removed all twist, as outlined above in the section "Spoke Twist......" there shouldn't be any left. Check for true afterwards. Repeat this after each stage or "round". You can't repeat this one too often.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migen21 View Post
    As I understand it, the benefit of a Titanium freehub body is that it's less susceptible to being 'notched' by the cassette rings, which can be problem for big powerful riders. Aluminum is more susceptible.

    Here is a picture of a severely notched freehub body I found randomly on the Internet.



    When they get notched like this, the cassette cog rings can rotate and cause issues, and not to mention it can make getting the cassette off pretty challenging.

    That said, I don't think aluminum freehub bodies are a deal breaker (I guess that is obvious for me). Quite a few manufacturers use freehub bodies made from aluminum. If you aren't andre griepel and keep your cassette torqued down tight, I don't think you are going to have too much trouble.

    Also, this is a replaceable part.

    The one in my 15k mile wheelset have some signs of notching, but nothing severe enough to warrant replacing it. I'm definitely not making Andre Griepel power, and my knees don't love climbing, so I mostly stick to flats and rollers unless I'm on a charity ride or something.
    Some people have problems with aluminum freehub gouging, others don't. My only guess other than rider weight and riding style is probably the fact that there are different alloys of aluminum - some softer, some harder. Just my guess.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
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    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I have never had to do a "follow up" truing after the first ride. Anybody who says you have to do this is not stress relieving their wheels properly.
    Nobody said that.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Granted I have never built wheels with 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes.
    You should start, you will get better wheels.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Granted I have never built wheels with 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes.
    Quote Originally Posted by beanpole View Post
    You should start, you will get better wheels.
    Really?? And what is your basis for this wisdom? What could I hope to achieve besides saving a few grams of weight? Inquiring minds want to know.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Really?? And what is your basis for this wisdom? What could I hope to achieve besides saving a few grams of weight? Inquiring minds want to know.
    First, do you get any kind of tension on the rear left side spokes when you have thick spokes on both sides? Thinner spokes on the left side helps you to get a tension there that is not close to zero.
    Second, due to being more elastic in the middle part thinner spokes are less prone to breaking at the elbows.

    Ever heard of "The bicycle wheel" by Jobst Brandt? Good reading for the inquiring mind...

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanpole View Post
    First, do you get any kind of tension on the rear left side spokes when you have thick spokes on both sides? Thinner spokes on the left side helps you to get a tension there that is not close to zero.
    With my DS tensions at around 130kgF, I get around 55kgF NDS tensions which is sufficient tension. I doubt that any experienced wheel builder would consider this a serious problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanpole View Post
    Second, due to being more elastic in the middle part thinner spokes are less prone to breaking at the elbows.
    2.0/1.8/2.0 or the bladed spokes I mentioned have enough butting so they flex in the middle, not at the more vulnerable j-bend or nipple. If a little is good, more isn't necessarily better. Have you ever heard of the law of diminishing returns?

    Quote Originally Posted by beanpole View Post
    Ever heard of "The bicycle wheel" by Jobst Brandt? Good reading for the inquiring mind...
    I own it and I'm quite familiar with it. Another excellent book for wheel builders is Roger Musson's "Professional Guide to Wheelbuilding". It is $12 and includes lifetime free revisions:

    Wheelbuilding book for cycle wheels

    It is an excellent read.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    They are durable. But so are pretty much all decent hubs so durability isn't a reason to pay the premium for CK over, say, White Industries.
    Thats a great point and an easy substitute to save money overall! Especially if they are both durable! I really appreciate the clarification!

  25. #50
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    OP, a couple of posts ago you mentioned that you just liked the CK R45D hub because of its color possibilities and in particular orange. This is a very true statement and often enough the main reason of choice for a lot of people when faced with the dilemma which hub to use. This and the preconceived notion that "most expensive" equates to an indiscriminate "best" for all and everything.

    At this point you have been exposed to a considerable discussion about the subject and hopefully with enough information to start formulating your own assessment or at least questions. IMO, one of the best sources available to you is the manufacturer of the hubs you are considering. The Chris King bunch is good group of people and IMO will guide you right. They also have a wide array of offerings so they may suggest a more robust hub for you than the R45D. At the end of the day, these are the people who will warranty your hub so their suggestion should count more. Same holds true with the White Industries folks (no orange hub there though).
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

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    By Pepper in forum Bikes, Frames and Forks
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    Last Post: 10-19-2004, 07:00 PM

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