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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    OP, a couple of posts ago you mentioned that you just liked the CK R45D hub because of its color possibilities and in particular orange. This is a very true statement and often enough the main reason of choice for a lot of people when faced with the dilemma which hub to use. This and the preconceived notion that "most expensive" equates to an indiscriminate "best" for all and everything.

    At this point you have been exposed to a considerable discussion about the subject and hopefully with enough information to start formulating your own assessment or at least questions. IMO, one of the best sources available to you is the manufacturer of the hubs you are considering. The Chris King bunch is good group of people and IMO will guide you right. They also have a wide array of offerings so they may suggest a more robust hub for you than the R45D. At the end of the day, these are the people who will warranty your hub so their suggestion should count more. Same holds true with the White Industries folks (no orange hub there though).
    dcgriz... I whole heartedly agree with you. I have sent inquiry emails to both vendors a few days ago and Im hoping to hear anything back. I do acknowledge that the "contact" emails may or may not be replied to but my hope is for some detailed guidance between the differences of the two.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    They are durable. But so are pretty much all decent hubs so durability isn't a reason to pay the premium for CK over, say, White Industries.
    Quote Originally Posted by dirtiClydesdale View Post
    Thats a great point and an easy substitute to save money overall! Especially if they are both durable! I really appreciate the clarification!
    I have disassembled or rebuilt several brands of hubs, and I believe Novatec and Bitex are made just as well as any of the brands that cost 3-4 times as much. Though they do have a more plain vanilla appearance.

    The Novatec freehub has a steel insert called the Anti Bite Guard which prevents the notching that many aluminum freehubs have trouble with.

    I built these 32h HED wheels with centerlock disc hubs just last week.

    32h or 36h for the bigger rider? HED Belgiums Plus 32h  vs Velocity Dyads 36h.-hed-rims-novatec-hubs-1-.jpg

    32h or 36h for the bigger rider? HED Belgiums Plus 32h  vs Velocity Dyads 36h.-hed-rims-novatec-hubs-5-.jpg

    32h or 36h for the bigger rider? HED Belgiums Plus 32h  vs Velocity Dyads 36h.-hed-rims-novatec-hubs-7-.jpg

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtiClydesdale View Post
    dcgriz... I whole heartedly agree with you. I have sent inquiry emails to both vendors a few days ago and Im hoping to hear anything back. I do acknowledge that the "contact" emails may or may not be replied to but my hope is for some detailed guidance between the differences of the two.
    Forget the emails and get on the phone. You will get results.

    Edit to add: Dont ask about the differences with another hub. Tell them what your intended purpose is, your weight, your pedaling style, your desires on performance, etc. and ask them to recommend the most suitable hub from their line-up for you.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    With my DS tensions at around 130kgF, I get around 55kgF NDS tensions which is sufficient tension. I doubt that any experienced wheel builder would consider this a serious problem.
    That is not even half, more close to a third! How can one be satisfied with that?
    I like the spokes on both sides to go zing when plucked and not zing on the right and clonk on the left side, maybe I'm strange that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Have you ever heard of the law of diminishing returns?
    No, but after I looked it up, I don't see why it applies here, because working with thinner spokes is hardly more difficult than working with thicker spokes.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanpole View Post
    That is not even half, more close to a third! How can one be satisfied with that?
    There are at least a few experienced wheelbuilders in this thread, a couple who weigh at least 50lbs more than I do who build perfectly reliable wheels this way. To my knowledge, none of them have had wheels fail due to insufficient NDS spoke tensions.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanpole View Post
    I like the spokes on both sides to go zing when plucked and not zing on the right and clonk on the left side, maybe I'm strange that way.
    Strange? We all have our quirks.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
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    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    There are at least a few experienced wheelbuilders in this thread, a couple who weigh at least 50lbs more than I do who build perfectly reliable wheels this way. To my knowledge, none of them have had wheels fail due to insufficient NDS spoke tensions.
    I don't doubt that, but I can't bear these imbalances.
    My rear wheels have Shimano 7speed hubs spacered up to 130mm or former 9/10 speed hubs with 7speed freehub bodies on them.
    With today's hubs it would be 2:1 or nothing for me.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanpole View Post
    I don't doubt that, but I can't bear these imbalances.
    My rear wheels have Shimano 7speed hubs spacered up to 130mm or former 9/10 speed hubs with 7speed freehub bodies on them.
    With today's hubs it would be 2:1 or nothing for me.
    The 130/55 tensions I mentioned are with an 11-speed freehub. With a 7-speed or an 8-9-10 speed freehub, it's not even worth a thought.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    There are at least a few experienced wheelbuilders in this thread, a couple who weigh at least 50lbs more than I do who build perfectly reliable wheels this way. To my knowledge, none of them have had wheels fail due to insufficient NDS spoke tensions.
    I waited to see how you would reply to beanpole's comment on:

    Quote Originally Posted by beanpole View Post
    That is not even half, more close to a third! How can one be satisfied with that?
    I like the spokes on both sides to go zing when plucked and not zing on the right and clonk on the left side, maybe I'm strange that way.
    .
    A couple of thoughts to add to your statement :
    Regardless of what we would have desired to have on NDS tension we are severely limited by four things. DS tension, hub flange offset, hub flange diameter and symmetric or asymmetric shape of rim. The resulting DS/NDS tension ratio dictates what the NDS tension would be, given the DS tension. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why the DS tension has been creeping up since the 11s cassettes came out to fix the problems we did not have.

    The 11s hubs of today have made the bracing angles to be steeper and thus reducing the tension ratio of the past eras. What this means is that where NDS of 65 kgf for a 7s hub was acceptable before, now a NDS of 55 kgf is, because there arent any other choices left other than maybe asymmetric rims and fancy lacing patterns which come with their own sets of problems. Nevetheless, 55kgf at the NDS is a good tension to have with a symmetric rim and usually you pay top dollar for the hub that will allow you to have it. The real problem is if you cant develop anything over 47 or 48kgf and there would be the case for the more exotic lacing patterns to be possibly considered rather than picking another hub which is what I would do.

    So basically, a rear symmetric wheel will go zing on the DS and 45%zing on the NDS. I dont know if 45%Zing=Clonk but I do know that as long as the DS Zing is uniform across the DS and the NDS 45%Zing is uniform across the NDS, the wheel is good to go.

    Interestingly enough and to demonstrate how the 11s has changed our thoughts on what hub geometry is acceptable, the 11s DT 240S has developed to be a top performance hub when referring to its tension ratio compared to its peers while a 10s DT 240 was really at the bottom of the list before. Same exact hub.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanpole View Post
    Nobody said that.
    I think he was saying he gets it right before taking a ride so he doesn't get home finding the wheel out of true. Very bad. The spokes should be well seated and equally tensioned around the rim, before putting the wheel on the bike. No thuds. You want those spokes to sing!

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    I waited to see how you would reply to beanpole's comment on:

    A couple of thoughts to add to your statement :
    Regardless of what we would have desired to have on NDS tension we are severely limited by four things. DS tension, hub flange offset, hub flange diameter and symmetric or asymmetric shape of rim. The resulting DS/NDS tension ratio dictates what the NDS tension would be, given the DS tension. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why the DS tension has been creeping up since the 11s cassettes came out to fix the problems we did not have.

    The 11s hubs of today have made the bracing angles to be steeper and thus reducing the tension ratio of the past eras. What this means is that where NDS of 65 kgf for a 7s hub was acceptable before, now a NDS of 55 kgf is, because there arent any other choices left other than maybe asymmetric rims and fancy lacing patterns which come with their own sets of problems. Nevetheless, 55kgf at the NDS is a good tension to have with a symmetric rim and usually you pay top dollar for the hub that will allow you to have it. The real problem is if you cant develop anything over 47 or 48kgf and there would be the case for the more exotic lacing patterns to be possibly considered rather than picking another hub which is what I would do.

    So basically, a rear symmetric wheel will go zing on the DS and 45%zing on the NDS. I dont know if 45%Zing=Clonk but I do know that as long as the DS Zing is uniform across the DS and the NDS 45%Zing is uniform across the NDS, the wheel is good to go.

    Interestingly enough and to demonstrate how the 11s has changed our thoughts on what hub geometry is acceptable, the 11s DT 240S has developed to be a top performance hub when referring to its tension ratio compared to its peers while a 10s DT 240 was really at the bottom of the list before. Same exact hub.

    Excellent detailed explanation, DC.

    I think what Beanpole was insinuating is that he uses thinner spokes on the NDS in order to get more equal spoke tensions. Is this really a good practice?
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  11. #61
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    You don't get measurably more tension on the NDS by using thinner spokes. I built 6 dished wheels yesterday, each of them with differentiated spoke gauges (thicker on loaded side, thinner on unloaded side).

    Lifetime I have built about 1.5 zillion dished wheels with same spokes both sides, and 1.25 zillion with differentiated spokes. Obviously I'm speaking hyperbolically, I've no idea how many I've built of either, but the total is several thousand.

    The reason we began and persist with it is that the thicker spokes give, through our iterative testing and observation, more long term radial stability to the build. They don't stretch. The thinner spokes on the unloaded side are not tensioned to nearly the same percent of their tensile strength, so that extra strength/stretch resistance is unnecessary.

    In foregoing that unnecessary strength on the unloaded side, you get in return a slightly lighter wheel and spokes that yield more easily should they come out of tension in a momentary shock/overload. Both might be distinctions without differences, but we feel strongly enough that it all works that we suffer the operations and stocking headache of doing it.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    You don't get measurably more tension on the NDS by using thinner spokes. I built 6 dished wheels yesterday, each of them with differentiated spoke gauges (thicker on loaded side, thinner on unloaded side).

    Lifetime I have built about 1.5 zillion dished wheels with same spokes both sides, and 1.25 zillion with differentiated spokes. Obviously I'm speaking hyperbolically, I've no idea how many I've built of either, but the total is several thousand.

    The reason we began and persist with it is that the thicker spokes give, through our iterative testing and observation, more long term radial stability to the build. They don't stretch. The thinner spokes on the unloaded side are not tensioned to nearly the same percent of their tensile strength, so that extra strength/stretch resistance is unnecessary.

    In foregoing that unnecessary strength on the unloaded side, you get in return a slightly lighter wheel and spokes that yield more easily should they come out of tension in a momentary shock/overload. Both might be distinctions without differences, but we feel strongly enough that it all works that we suffer the operations and stocking headache of doing it.
    Thank you for this clarification, Dave. So in short, it sounds like there are some minute advantages to thinner NDS spokes, but more equal spoke tensions are not a measurable advantage.

    It could be that Beanpole got the false impression that you get more NDS tension because of a higher tone - zing instead of clunk.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  13. #63
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    @Lombard

    A thinner butted spoke arrives to its elastic tension range at a lower tension than a thicker butted spoke when tensioned at the same load. This is desirable as it helps to maintain spokes from loosening up and eventually break when the wheel is exposed to impacts.

    That's the theory anyway behind using lighter gauge spokes on the NDS than the DS. It took hold after the effects of the poor tension ratio of the 11s hubs started being felt when the NDS spokes were struggling to keep tight at tensions below 50 kgf. Nothing to do, IMO, with maintaining equal tensions if I understand the claim you mentioned correctly.

    I respect November Dave's explanation on why he is doing this, considering the wide audience he is dealing with and its diverse requirements. However, I have not found this to be a necessary evolution on how I build my own wheels, at least as is demonstrated by the results of my own use.

    The first thing I do when considering a build is to calculate what would be the theoretical NDS tension based on the hub and spoke length I plan on using. If I don't get a NDS tension around 55 kgf or more then I look for another hub. I use the same type spokes on both sides; mostly Race or Force. I no longer use cx-ray or Lasers as much as I used to, because, frankly, I haven't found the performance benefits of doing so. Also, I dont race, so a millisecond speed increase is not something I care about any longer. The extra few grams in savings from spoke gauge reduction is not in my crosshairs either. The lightest wheelset I would want to have underneath me would not go below the 1650 gram range anyway. I know, quite boring, but my wheels stay put as I build them. Tire selection however is a different story as I opt for the supplest I can find and often run them with latex tubes.

    Edit to add: In case anybody is interested, the formula to calculate the theoretical NDS tension is Td/Tn=(Wn/Wd)*(Ld/Ln)
    Where T=tension, W=hub flange spacing, L=spoke length, n=NDS and d=DS
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    The first thing I do when considering a build is to calculate what would be the theoretical NDS tension based on the hub and spoke length I plan on using. If I don't get a NDS tension around 55 kgf or more then I look for another hub. I use the same type spokes on both sides; mostly Race or Force. I no longer use cx-ray or Lasers as much as I used to, because, frankly, I haven't found the performance benefits of doing so. Also, I dont race, so a millisecond speed increase is not something I care about any longer. The extra few grams in savings from spoke gauge reduction is not in my crosshairs either. The lightest wheelset I would want to have underneath me would not go below the 1650 gram range anyway. I know, quite boring, but my wheels stay put as I build them. Tire selection however is a different story as I opt for the supplest I can find and often run them with latex tubes.
    I totally get this, 100%. There's a bit of a prisoner's dilemma as regards weight when you actually sell wheels - make them as light as people want but below the limits of what they can be and suffer the consequences (some have done this), merely claim that they're as light as people want them to be so you get the sale and suffer rare consequences as people who shop on weight rarely actually weigh what they buy (this is perhaps prominent to prevalent), or make them what weight they need to be and state the weight as such and suffer low sales.

    We do as much as we can to slalom through that minefield, which certainly includes getting rid of whatever weight we know is not beneficial that is not heinously expensive to get rid of. Obviously if you are building wheels for yourself you can choose to go in whichever direction you decide with only yourself to answer to.

    The point that dcgriz makes about thinner gauge spokes getting to an elastic tension range, which I did a poor job of articulating in my earlier post, may have some fruit. I've never gotten into the metallurgy of how different spokes behave at various percents of their tensile strength. It could be that there is a difference there, I don't know, I just know that what we do works and works well and sometimes that has to be good enough.

    I know that in ropes (for those who don't know I have an extensive background in high performance sailing) you actually match a rope material and diameter to a purpose based on that. Dyneema ropes, for example, actually much better at very high percents of their tensile strength. Aramids not so much. You'll be hearing more about Dyneema in bikes as it's making its way into frames under the Innegra (sp?) trade name. Dyneema is itself a trade name, as I recall it's actually classed as UHMWPE - Ultra High Molecular Weight Poly Ethylene.

  15. #65
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    Rope on a sailboat? ROPE? Just don't say "the rope that runs up to the pointy end".
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    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  16. #66
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    @November Dave

    If this was my livelihood, I would not change anything from my winning formula either
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Rope on a sailboat? ROPE? Just don't say "the rope that runs up to the pointy end".
    On a spool, it's rope. When it gets cut, it becomes line. True story. But no one calls it line - it's sheets, halyards, braces, etc.

    Thanks DC!

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    That's the theory anyway behind using lighter gauge spokes on the NDS than the DS. It took hold after the effects of the poor tension ratio of the 11s hubs started being felt when the NDS spokes were struggling to keep tight at tensions below 50 kgf. Nothing to do, IMO, with maintaining equal tensions if I understand the claim you mentioned correctly.
    OK, I worded that badly. When I said "more equal spoke tensions", I meant DS vs. NDS, not equal spoke tensions within a side. Sorry, my bad.

    And what Dave said was that thinner spokes will not really help that. But the impression I get from your explanation is that since the thinner spoke gets to its elastic range at a lower tension, it is less likely to come loose over time. But in life, there is theory, and then there is practice. You have built exactly the same wheels that I did with the same hubs. I believe you weigh at least 50lbs more than I do and none of them have failed you.

    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    I totally get this, 100%. There's a bit of a prisoner's dilemma as regards weight when you actually sell wheels - make them as light as people want but below the limits of what they can be and suffer the consequences (some have done this), merely claim that they're as light as people want them to be so you get the sale and suffer rare consequences as people who shop on weight rarely actually weigh what they buy (this is perhaps prominent to prevalent), or make them what weight they need to be and state the weight as such and suffer low sales.
    OK, if you build and sell wheels commercially and it's your lively hood, that's a totally different story. In the road bike world, a little less is good, much less is better and dangerously less is just enough. And what you can charge is inversely proportional to what the end product weighs. So I clearly understand where you are coming from. Another issue is while you have deadlines to build before customers become impatient and go somewhere else, I can take as long as I want and only have my own sanity to contend with.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
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    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    OK, I worded that badly. When I said "more equal spoke tensions", I meant DS vs. NDS, not equal spoke tensions within a side. Sorry, my bad.
    No problem. Just to be clear ..... the tension on the NDS is what is being developed by the tension on the DS and the bracing angles of the spokes. The gauge of the NDS spokes will neither increase or decrease that. What they will do is stretch proportionally to their thickness so a thinner spoke is expected to reach its elastic range sooner.
    Don't ask me for quantitative numbers 'cause I dont recall anymore. They may be floating around in Google-land though ......
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    No problem. Just to be clear ..... the tension on the NDS is what is being developed by the tension on the DS and the bracing angles of the spokes. The gauge of the NDS spokes will neither increase or decrease that. What they will do is stretch proportionally to their thickness so a thinner spoke is expected to reach its elastic range sooner.
    Don't ask me for quantitative numbers 'cause I dont recall anymore. They may be floating around in Google-land though ......
    Interesting. Some time just for S&G's, I'll get out one of my old guitars, put the spoke tensiometer on each string and see what it reads. Then I can find out for sure how much tension I need to get a zing instead of a clonk.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Interesting. Some time just for S&G's, I'll get out one of my old guitars, put the spoke tensiometer on each string and see what it reads. Then I can find out for sure how much tension I need to get a zing instead of a clonk.
    Much simpler to clip this on your stand
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 32h or 36h for the bigger rider? HED Belgiums Plus 32h  vs Velocity Dyads 36h.-img_0645.jpg  
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    Much simpler to clip this on your stand
    A couple of years ago I tried my guitar tuner clamped onto my wheel stand and it worked fine but I found that plucking and listening to the tones was just as accurate as reading off the screen. So I shelved the idea. It's not a bad idea though (for relative tensions!) for someone with not a great sense of tone (I take weekly guitar lessons).
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    A couple of years ago I tried my guitar tuner clamped onto my wheel stand and it worked fine but I found that plucking and listening to the tones was just as accurate as reading off the screen. So I shelved the idea. It's not a bad idea though (for relative tensions!) for someone with not a great sense of tone (I take weekly guitar lessons).
    Look at it as an artificial enhancement of a not so enhanced musical ear. Good to quickly equalize tensions during the build. I'm still a numbers man though and that's how I finish it.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    Much simpler to clip this on your stand

    I did get one of these and tried it for awhile. But I didn't find it gave consistent readings. And like you, I'm more of a numbers guy, so I went back to my tensiometer.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  25. #75
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    All... I went to a wheelbuilder today to speak about this wheelset HED Belgium Plus 32h disc and White Industries hubs... but he recommended the DT 240s since it wont break the bank. My question is are the 240s a worthwhile investment vs the White Industries or are the 350s better to get into? (Im not really sure what the difference from the 240s vs 350s? Other than weight.) Or should I just plainly stick with White Industries?

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