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  1. #1
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    32h or 36h for the bigger rider? HED Belgiums Plus 32h vs Velocity Dyads 36h.

    I created a thread asking something a little bit more broad/vague but i have a specific question and request opinions versus my ignorant thoughts.

    Im currently 270ish and I will be riding road for the majority of my rides with the hope to get on a little gravel just to get from one trail to another. Both wheelsets will be for disc version bikes.

    Im thinking about picking up one of these two wheelsets:
    1. HED Belgium Plus 32h with Chris King hubs. 3x lacing with double-butted spokes.
    2. Velocity Dyad 36h with White Industries hubs. 3x lacing with double-butted spokes.

    Im really trying to understand if there is a "large" difference between 32h vs 36 hole? I understand that 36h is heavier and better suited for my weight right now but in 6+ months... my weight will change and the 32h should be fine? While Im more of a fan of the HED Belgiums mainly because Im familiar with the name and they just look "better" to me... the Velocity Dyads might fit the gravel profile better in the long term use if I choose to take a ride in that direction.

    From my understanding... a 40h is said to not produce much differences than the 36h in regards to 4x lacing or anything else but Im asking to confirm that current train of thought.

    TIA

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    32h or 36h for the bigger rider? HED Belgiums Plus 32h vs Velocity Dyads 36h.

    I would look at it this way... why not get the 36h and have peace of mind? Any potential weight penalty will be wiped away as you lose weight.
    Last edited by Opus51569; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opus51569 View Post
    I would look at it this way... why not get the 36h and have piece of mind? Any potential weight penalty will be wiped away as you lose weight.
    I know this answer is not adequate but mainly because I like the HED Belgiums more in terms of aesthetics but the Belgiums do not come in 36h. They stop at 32h. =(

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtiClydesdale View Post
    I know this answer is not adequate but mainly because I like the HED Belgiums more in terms of aesthetics but the Belgiums do not come in 36h. They stop at 32h. =(
    I'll offer a bit of a different view. 32h on a modern rim is a lot of spokes. The mere percent increase in spoke count from 32 to 36 is just under 10% (obviously) whereas going from 20 to 24 to 28 to 32 is a series of much bigger though diminishing steps.

    When we've done static stiffness testing we've found a near flatline beyond 28. Plus at 36 the distance between spoke holes in the rim is tiny, the hub flanges are just perforated... Nothing's ever free.

    It's quite strange to be on this side of the conversation after years and years of railing against the 'how few spokes can I get away with?' trend.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtiClydesdale View Post
    I know this answer is not adequate but mainly because I like the HED Belgiums more in terms of aesthetics but the Belgiums do not come in 36h. They stop at 32h. =(
    So... we're really looking for validation... NTTAWWT. Get the Belgiums then, and keep an eye out for errant potholes. You should be fine.
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  6. #6
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    The real difference for you, IMO, are that you may be riding your bike home if you brake 1 of the 36 spokes but you may be calling for an Uber if 1 of the 32 spokes brakes. However, neither of these outcomes is warranted; just anticipated probable outcomes under different degrees of safety.

    Would a 32h HED Belgium+ build to a good wheel for you? I think so. Would it be less worthy than a 36h Dyad? I dont think so.
    I think at that level and particularly between these two rims, one being wider than the other, the difference in spoke count is somewhat bridged and the builder quality remains the important variable. Additionally, the HED seems to have higher consistency in quality than the Dyad and that often means more even spoke tensions which tends to help spoke longevity.

    If you prefer to remain with a 36h rim the likes of HED Belgium+, then the H+Son Archetype may also be a decent choice for you at the same quality, almost the same finish and half the cost of the HED. Its got rim brake tracks but is non-machine-walled so the finish remains on them.

    Another choice you may consider is triple-butted spokes for a bit of extra insurance at the elbows.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  7. #7
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    Just my opinion, but I'd go with the 32h Belgium Plus.

    Background: I have 2 wheelsets that are in almost constant use. 1 is my Campag Record 32h w/Belgium Plus, the other is a Campag Chorus 32h w/Dyad, DT Competition spokes w/brass nipples on both. The Belgium are on my primary road bike, the Dyad are on my fast commuter.

    I've had the Dyad a couple of years longer than the Belgium, but they have approx 1/2 the miles the Belgium have on them. The miles might be a bit tougher since it is commuting so I have about 15 lbs more on the bike + the bike itself is 5 lbs heavier (I'm 185, not quite a clydesdale) but the Dyad are showing signs of cracking around the spoke holes.

    Spoke tension is within the range Velocity recommends, but I'm seeing discoloration around the spoke holes as well as the start of some cracks. The guy that built the wheels (he built both sets) was and wasn't surprised with the Dyad. He said his early builds with them were bulletproof, but the latter builds seemed to have cracking problems. Given my weight he didn't expect any issues with them. FWIW he no longer builds Dyad but that is more likely due to supply issues than too many issues with the rims.

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    I've actually ridden 70 miles with a friend who broke one of his 32 spokes literally 3 miles into a big ride. This was pre-November. He ripped the broken spoke out and said "eh, there's 31 more."

    I haven't done it in a while, but have on several occasions tested (on purpose) that a well-built 24h rear only needs 11 non-drive spokes. It needs all dozen drive side spokes, but it'll do pretty well without one of the nds spokes. And a 20h front is going to be pretty hopeless if a spoke breaks. But we're a LONG way from any of that with a 32h build.

    I would choose a HED rim over a Velocity rim 11 times out of 5. And H+ are pretty nice, but "almost the same finish"? A stretch. Archetypes are also machined as other rim brake rims usually are, their nuance (similar to FLO30) being that they are anodized post-machining. That anodized finish can be thought of as temporary - it's not durable.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtiClydesdale View Post
    I created a thread asking something a little bit more broad/vague but i have a specific question and request opinions versus my ignorant thoughts.

    Im currently 270ish and I will be riding road for the majority of my rides with the hope to get on a little gravel just to get from one trail to another. Both wheelsets will be for disc version bikes.

    Im thinking about picking up one of these two wheelsets:
    1. HED Belgium Plus 32h with Chris King hubs. 3x lacing with double-butted spokes.
    2. Velocity Dyad 36h with White Industries hubs. 3x lacing with double-butted spokes.

    Im really trying to understand if there is a "large" difference between 32h vs 36 hole? I understand that 36h is heavier and better suited for my weight right now but in 6+ months... my weight will change and the 32h should be fine? While Im more of a fan of the HED Belgiums mainly because Im familiar with the name and they just look "better" to me... the Velocity Dyads might fit the gravel profile better in the long term use if I choose to take a ride in that direction.

    From my understanding... a 40h is said to not produce much differences than the 36h in regards to 4x lacing or anything else but Im asking to confirm that current train of thought.

    TIA
    There is a notable problem in both the rims recommended. Both Dyad and Belgium don't have brass eyelets in the spoke holes. The eyelets prevent the rims from cracking around the spoke holes. You'll replace the rim from the brake surfaces on the sidewalls getting concave and thinning out, to the point I've seem them pull apart from spoke tension. If the rim doesn't have eyelets, it'll likely start coming apart around the spoke holes sooner than the brake blocks get paper thin.

    Campy has some great 32 and 36 spoke rims that are "wide" and have these brass eyelets. Ambrosio and Sun have some inexpensive 32 and 36 hole rims with eyelets, perfect for carrying loads and touring. They'll last 2 or 3 times the Dyad and Belgium.

    Also: butted spokes are lighter, absorb shocks nicely, and are torsionally very strong and stiff. But they're really easy to "wind up," twist, when building or touch up truing, and then they break. Straight gauge spokes, like 14 mm in back and 15 mm in front, don't twist as easily and true with less hassle. Straight gauge are also the most commonly available at bike shops if you commute or tour.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 4 Weeks Ago at 05:22 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    butted spokes.............are torsionally very strong and stiff. But they're really easy to "wind up," twist, when building or touch up truing, and then they break.
    What? I'll give you this on the mechanics of Torsion from Wiki -"torsion is the twisting of an object due to an applied torque". So if they're "very strong and stiff" how can they be "easy to wind up"?

    And if anyone is winding up a spoke "when building or touch up truing" to the point that they break, they have no business building a wheel. I can't even break a Sapim Laser (2.0/1.5/2.0 - the ultimate in butting) from applied torsion.

    I won't even comment on the eyelets preventing rim cracking. Don't make me go to the trouble of posting a photo.
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    I was nearly the same size and weight as the OP (I was 270lbs at that time) when my bike shop ordered me some 'bomb proof' wheels for a bike I had just purchased back in 2014. I didn't know what questions to ask, so trusted them to make the right decisions. I ended up putting 15k miles on a set of HED Belgiums on King hubs. They were 28/28 and I never even had to have them trued.

    Finally, last last summer, on an easy recovery ride after a big long ride with lots of climbing (105 miles/8400ft), one of the aluminum nipples failed on the drive side. I took them to a local wheel builder who rebuilt them with brass nipples. I full expect them to last a long long time.

    If I had it to do again (and I do - new bike with 12mm thru axles) I'd order the same wheels again, but definitely brass nipples instead of alloy (because duh, now I know better!). I'm lighter now (215-220lbs) and I fully expect them to last long long time. If it were another rim brake bike I'd even consider 24h/28h, but with the 160mm rotor in front I think I'll stick with 28h/28h and see how it goes.

    I know it seems crazy to some, and I know a lot of people lighter than me have had terrible experiences with wheels. Maybe I just got lucky... Maybe I'm just easy on wheels.. I dunno. For my own needs, 32h front wheels seems like overkill (24h is likely plenty), and arguably 28h is plenty in the back, given the right combination of components and build quality.
    Last edited by Migen21; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:34 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    What? I'll give you this on the mechanics of Torsion from Wiki -"torsion is the twisting of an object due to an applied torque". So if they're "very strong and stiff" how can they be "easy to wind up"?

    And if anyone is winding up a spoke "when building or touch up truing" to the point that they break, they have no business building a wheel. I can't even break a Sapim Laser (2.0/1.5/2.0 - the ultimate in butting) from applied torsion.

    I won't even comment on the eyelets preventing rim cracking. Don't make me go to the trouble of posting a photo.
    You've built more wheels than I have, that's for sure. So why not be a little less dismissive of the idea that perhaps a brass eyelet will strengthen a spoke hole so the spokes can't pull out and shred the aluminum rim around the hole? True or false?

    My experience with butted spokes is what I said, they're harder to true because they twist very easily. I had to hold the spoke above the nipple with a needle nosed wrench to make sure it didn't turn when truing, so am surprised at your response. I also edited out a phrase on brass eyelets: yes, the aluminum rims will fracture around the hole even under the brass eyelets, as you imply but don't explain. But they still last much longer than the identical rim would without the eyelet. Rim alloys may be improved, but aluminum still cracks under repeated stress such as a wheel goes through.

    "Torsion" is the wrong word perhaps. Meant to say "tension" if there's a difference in result, as in "tensioning spokes" to a given tension, determined by plucking or a tensionometer. An old idea passed around by wheel builders is that thinning the spoke down in the middle absorbs shocks better. Straight gauge transfers significantly more of the stress to the elbows on the hubs, which is where most spokes break.

    At the same tension as straight gauge, these skinny spokes also held up as well, because the stress was from the ends, along the length of the spoke. Very hard to break a wire by pulling it only. It doesn't bend. In fact a few builders would tell you the 1.5 mm would absorb just enough shocks to prevent the spoke from breaking at the bend on the hub. Straight gauge spokes would transfer all the shocks to the bend, and would break sooner than butted spokes. What was your experience on that issue?

    If the spoke twists and doesn't twist back when the wheel is stress relieved by hand, it will break. So you're agreeing, a person who has any bidness truing wheels better be careful not to twist the spokes when tensioning. I'm saying that is very easy to do with butted spokes, not as easy to do with straight gauge spokes. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    I had to hold the spoke above the nipple with a needle nosed wrench to make sure it didn't turn when truing,
    Let the spoke twist!
    Instead of squeezing (and thus nearly cutting) the spoke with a wrench you could apply a piece of duct tape on the spoke, so you can see when the twisting stops and the pulling begins. After that you can take out the twist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    If the spoke twists and doesn't twist back when the wheel is stress relieved by hand, it will break.
    No, it won't.
    The "stress relieve" will happen during the ride, the spoke snaps back and you end up with a wheel that is out of true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    There is a notable problem in both the rims recommended. Both Dyad and Belgium don't have brass eyelets in the spoke holes. The eyelets prevent the rims from cracking around the spoke holes. You'll replace the rim from the brake surfaces on the sidewalls getting concave and thinning out, to the point I've seem them pull apart from spoke tension. If the rim doesn't have eyelets, it'll likely start coming apart around the spoke holes sooner than the brake blocks get paper thin.

    Campy has some great 32 and 36 spoke rims that are "wide" and have these brass eyelets. Ambrosio and Sun have some inexpensive 32 and 36 hole rims with eyelets, perfect for carrying loads and touring. They'll last 2 or 3 times the Dyad and Belgium.

    Also: butted spokes are lighter, absorb shocks nicely, and are torsionally very strong and stiff. But they're really easy to "wind up," twist, when building or touch up truing, and then they break. Straight gauge spokes, like 14 mm in back and 15 mm in front, don't twist as easily and true with less hassle. Straight gauge are also the most commonly available at bike shops if you commute or tour.
    I am sorry to say this but you are fundamentally incorrect in all of the points you brought up. The reasons on Why? are available in the higher quality wheelbuilding books.
    We could discuss it further after you become more familiar with these concepts.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    I've actually ridden 70 miles with a friend who broke one of his 32 spokes literally 3 miles into a big ride. This was pre-November. He ripped the broken spoke out and said "eh, there's 31 more."

    I haven't done it in a while, but have on several occasions tested (on purpose) that a well-built 24h rear only needs 11 non-drive spokes. It needs all dozen drive side spokes, but it'll do pretty well without one of the nds spokes. And a 20h front is going to be pretty hopeless if a spoke breaks. But we're a LONG way from any of that with a 32h build.

    I would choose a HED rim over a Velocity rim 11 times out of 5. And H+ are pretty nice, but "almost the same finish"? A stretch. Archetypes are also machined as other rim brake rims usually are, their nuance (similar to FLO30) being that they are anodized post-machining. That anodized finish can be thought of as temporary - it's not durable.
    My last experience with a broken spoke was several years ago and left me stranded in the middle of nowhere. Wheel was a Mavic Ksyrium SL with the gigantic aluminum spokes and in perfect working order. I was riding the back-country roads when two farm dogs took after me. One caught up but missed my right heel and got its snout in the wheel. I must of been doing 25-28mph at the time. The impact was so much I thought the chainstay on my Specialized was toast. Was able to keep the bike right-side up and kept on going. A hundred yards or so later, I stopped to check the damage. The spoke (DS) was rotated more than 90 deg starting at about 1" above the nipple but was still in one piece. The chainstay seemed ok under the mucus and hair left on it. Both dogs disappeared after the lead dog got injured. I thought of bending the spoke back but looking at how all of the black anodizing had disappeared I was skeptical about damaging it further and decided to leave as it was. I rode the bike for about a mile, maybe a bit less, and then with a loud "snap" the spoke broke into three pieces and the wheel became totally unridable no matter what I tried of doing. Weight wise, I must of been in the 230lbs range at that time.

    I would also choose a HED over a Velocity, 11 out of 11 times but for reasons more prevalent to the wheel builder than the wheel rider (although I may make an exception with the Quill to try it out).

    Incidentally, the OP uses disk brakes so the anodizing on the Archetype brake tracks should not be affected.
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    Lots of replies here, some of it conflicting. Dirti C., the most helpful advice here is from the two known Clydes in this thread - DCGriz and Migen. So I'm sure both of them have first hand experience of the frustration of wheel failures. In fact, I was about to post and caution to you about the aluminum CK hub freebody until I saw Migen's post about his success with these. Somehow, common sense was telling me an aluminum freehub body and a 270lb. man were a bad combo. I was obviously wrong. After 15K miles, a wheel doesn't owe you anything.

    Mike T., while not a Clyde, also knows what he's talking about - he's a very experienced wheelbuilder who has been building wheels for about 5 decades. It was he and DC Griz who encouraged and motivated me to take up wheel building. Lots and lots of excellent info on his website.

    Sorry Fred, your advice conflicts with everything I have read. I am really surprised you as a longtime bike mechanic, you would be giving advice like this. As others have said, spoke windup is not the bogeyman you see it to be. Mike T. explains the "two steps forward, one step backward" method of dealing with this. And as Migen said, any spoke windup will be relieved after a few rides and will result in an out-of-true wheel. Irrelevant point as a good wheel builder will stress relieve his/her wheels before they even go on the bike.

    Also not a relevant point is eyelets vs. no eyelets. There are both good and crappy rims with eyelets and without eyelets. Eyelets do not necessarily make a better rim. More likely, eyelets are sometimes a crutch on an already weak rim to compensate. In other words, saying rims with eyelets are always stronger is like saying when you are shopping for a mortgage, you should always look for the lowest interest rate and ignore things like fees, points, balloon payments, etc.

    Bottom line is you probably won't go wrong with the HED Belgium Plus 32h with Chris King hubs. 3x lacing with double-butted spokes. I have yet to hear of a HED Belgium rim failing. I have heard of quite a few QC issues with Velocity rims. As Migen said, you might want to find out whether the nipples on those are brass or aluminum as that was his point of failure. You want brass as aluminum can corrode over time.


    Last edited by Lombard; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:42 AM.
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  18. #18
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    Those 15k mile King hubs still have the original freehub body. There are some gouges, but insignificant at this point.

    Body weight isn't a direct correlation to freehub body stress. Power to weight ratio is a better determinant. But being 250+ pounds, and having 55 year old knees, it's not like I was seeking out climbing challenges either.

    I told the OP in PMS that I'm always very careful how I verbalize things in threads like this.

    28/28 HED/King wheels work really well for me. Everything I could ask for in an all around wheel.

    That may not be everyone's experience.

    I have a riding buddy who is 30 pounds lighter than me (still a Clyde), who shreds wheels and tires like they are made out of paper. I think he has gone through three sets of wheels (varying sources and quality) in the time I've owned my HED/Kings. I very rarely get flats. He gets them quite frequently. I would be comfortable putting the ratio at 10 to 1.

    We live in the same neighborhood, and ride the same roads and trails for the most part. It's all difficult to explain.

    Some people are just harder on wheels than others, and he and I are on opposite ends of that spectrum.

    I told the OP that my experiences are my own, and ultimately for him I'm only one data point. He needs to consider many and the be willing to accept the risk vs reward of his wheel options.

    $1200 is a lot of money.



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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migen21 View Post
    Those 15k mile King hubs still have the original freehub body. There are some gouges, but insignificant at this point.

    Body weight isn't a direct correlation to freehub body stress. Power to weight ratio is a better determinant. But being 250+ pounds, and having 55 year old knees, it's not like I was seeking out climbing challenges either.

    I told the OP in PMS that I'm always very careful how I verbalize things in threads like this.

    28/28 HED/King wheels work really well for me. Everything I could ask for in an all around wheel.

    That may not be everyone's experience.

    I have a riding buddy who is 30 pounds lighter than me (still a Clyde), who shreds wheels and tires like they are made out of paper. I think he has gone through three sets of wheels (varying sources and quality) in the time I've owned my HED/Kings. I very rarely get flats. He gets them quite frequently. I would be comfortable putting the ratio at 10 to 1.

    We live in the same neighborhood, and ride the same roads and trails for the most part. It's all difficult to explain.

    Some people are just harder on wheels than others, and he and I are on opposite ends of that spectrum.

    I told the OP that my experiences are my own, and ultimately for him I'm only one data point. He needs to consider many and the be willing to accept the risk vs reward of his wheel options.

    $1200 is a lot of money.
    Point well taken. $1,200?? The OP didn't quote a price on those wheels. IMHO, $1,200 is too much to pay for a set of wheels, period. But that's just me. I would be willing to spend $700 tops. I'm guessing the CK hubs are the most expensive part of those. A pair of Shimano Ultegra 6800 hubs are about one fourth the cost and just as strong and durable, if not more. The expense in the CK hubs is in the lightweight.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    The expense in the CK hubs is in the lightweight.
    This is a bit of an oversimplification. CK is one of the few hub manufacturers that DOESN'T play the "my hubs are lighter than yours" game. Their product descriptions are laced with references to "responsible product weights" and hubs that "weigh what they need to weigh in order to do what we want them to do." As someone who's aware of most everything on the hub market and has built with a huge subset of that, I find their approach to be noteworthy.

    There is an enormous array of hubs that are both lighter and less expensive than CK. Literally zero percent of the cost driver behind CK hubs is weight.

    Cost drivers for CK, in no particular order, include but are not limited to medical-grade machining precision (CK actually started out making medical devices), domestic US production, expensive processes that do drive quality (material stock, forging, machining), superior bearings produced in-house, availability of color and lacing options, and a 5 year warranty (warrantees don't come for free). Some of the price is also due to the cachet and appeal of CK, so there is a bit of "what the market will bear" in there.

    The OP's application is one where Ultegra hubs are an applicable choice, as they are only available in 32 and 36 hole drilling, and Ultegra hubs are generally regarded as very good hubs. Depending on application, they may offer as much as a CK does in any particular application. I don't think you'll find a ton of support for the notion that they are in any respect superior to CK hubs, though.

    This is all coming from a person who has had more frank conversations about the price implications of CK hubs than certainly all but a few in the world. They are expensive. The overwhelmingly most common sentiments among people who get them - "I've always wanted a set of them," "they are the most beautiful things you can put on a bike," and "I can afford it and I just want to know I'm getting the best there is." And it is more or less those and only those people to whom I don't present a more objective argument that favors other less expensive choices.

    I get critiqued and criticized on the internet all day every day, and I welcome it, and I think that consumers should critique any component of any purchase decision. But as we do that, can we please at least keep the facts straight?

    On other thread-related topics, if you or your builder can't control spoke windup please find someone else to build your wheels. That is a primary element of basic wheel building competence. And the arguments against eyelets significantly outweighs those for. Anything that an eyelet does can be done better by a washer, and drilling larger spoke holes than necessary simply to accommodate an eyelet is terrible engineering.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Point well taken. $1,200?? The OP didn't quote a price on those wheels. IMHO, $1,200 is too much to pay for a set of wheels, period. But that's just me. I would be willing to spend $700 tops. I'm guessing the CK hubs are the most expensive part of those. A pair of Shimano Ultegra 6800 hubs are about one fourth the cost and just as strong and durable, if not more. The expense in the CK hubs is in the lightweight.
    Chris King Wheels

    $1200 is MSRP for the disc version of the Alloy Ride wheel in 28/28 - built. You can likely get them cheaper online or if your LBS offers you a frequent buyer discount (I got my rim brake set for ~$800 a few years ago).

    $1200 is low compared to the price of the high end carbon wheelsets.

    Worth noting that I've seen 'custom' builds featuring this hub/rim combo on Ebay for less money, but if you dig into the details, they are not using the same spokes, and are expensive to ship - the build quality is also unknown - which is a big deal for us non-wheelbuilder types.

    This hasn't been discussed much in this thread, but I'm sure the wheel builders here will agree with this - probably more important than the number of spokes or the quality of the components is the quality of the build itself - and the willingness of the builder to stand behind their work. Especially as a clyde.

    My next set of wheels, regardless of what it is, will come from a small local shop who employs a custom builder who is well regarded and stands behind his work. I like supporting folks like this.

  22. #22
    A wheelist
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    Good observations & opinions as usual ND. I've had King hubs (still have 'em on my MTB) for about 20 years and it's never been about "extra longevity" above other hubs. It's always about 1) I want 'em, 2) I can afford 'em, 3) my Mrs is ok with the purchase. Nothing else. One thing about them that gets coffee-shop bragging points (or rolled eyes) is that King makes ball bearings in house. Who else does that eh?

    I would never buy them again though as I know that less expensive hubs will do what I need from them - even BHS type hubs.

    I'm not getting any deeper into the "wheelbuilding" aspects of this thread as the topics are non-arguable and at least you and Griz has it sorted.

    But someone might enjoy this pic. It's an old early '90s Bontrager offset rear MTB rim of mine. The ferrule didn't stop this nipple hole from cracking. The radial crack (diagnosed by hacksaw) was along the base of a radial web that linked the two faces of the rim. The anecdote to go along with it is that it's the last rim of mine that ever suffered a cracked nipple hole. All my non-eyelet rims and eyeletted Open Pros have never cracked.


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 32h or 36h for the bigger rider? HED Belgiums Plus 32h  vs Velocity Dyads 36h.-bonty-offset.jpg  
    Last edited by Mike T.; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:06 AM.
    .
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder's with motivation, information and resources.

    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Lots of replies here, some of it conflicting. Dirti C., the most helpful advice here is from the two known Clydes in this thread - DCGriz and Migen. So I'm sure both of them have first hand experience of the frustration of wheel failures. In fact, I was about to post and caution to you about the aluminum CK hub freebody until I saw Migen's post about his success with these. Somehow, common sense was telling me an aluminum freehub body and a 270lb. man were a bad combo. I was obviously wrong. After 15K miles, a wheel doesn't owe you anything

    ....

    Bottom line is you probably won't go wrong with the HED Belgium Plus 32h with Chris King hubs. 3x lacing with double-butted spokes. I have yet to hear of a HED Belgium rim failing. I have heard of quite a few QC issues with Velocity rims. As Migen said, you might want to find out whether the nipples on those are brass or aluminum as that was his point of failure. You want brass as aluminum can corrode over time.


    I appreciate your input with DCGriz and Migen. Overall, I honestly thought of Chris King RC45 hubs because I saw an article with them on. But, your point in regards to aluminum and big guys is very accurate. While Im sure each mfg hub can have its issues... I would prefer to make the wheelset as bombproof as possible. With that said... going with White Industries with the titanium freehub might alleviate the aluminum vs big dude weight factor.

    I surely didnt pick CKs because of the expense but honestly... for myself, my health is worth whatever expense. TBH. Im just truly looking for the a set of wheels that can get me down 75+ lbs and then I can re-evaluate the situation. But even then... I kinda feel that I would like this to be my 5-year rims that last as long as the bike does.

    From what Im grabbing from this post... Im thinking HED Belgium Plus rims with CK/White Industries Titanium freehub 32h on front/back with double butted spokes and brass nipples. I honestly have no clue what that will run me but I do intend to strike some sort of deal with the lbs I plan to purchase the bike from. Like asking for 10-15% off of parts and creation of the wheel instead of asking it off the bike? If anything, that will be my two most wanted items, the custom wheelset creation and the pro fit! (Im sure pro fit is not the appropriate term but the "advanced" fit.)

  24. #24
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    Making value judgments about how much something worth in terms of money on a message board is fraught with peril.

    It's a very individual thing. One persons $1200 is another persons $12000 dollars and another persons $12.

    I get a kick out of the 'is this used bike worth $500?" or 'is this upgrade worth it'? threads. The answer is always 'Maybe!'. It's your money - how much do you like having it vs that shiny new thing? I can't tell you how much your money means to you - but, if I have some experience to share, I can tell you about that and let you use that information to make a decision. What I can't do is say 'yes, that upgrade is easily 'worth it'.

    Back on topic... any hub or rim that will get you down the road safely and reliably is 'good enough'. Everything else is just icing, right? How light is it? how much faster will it make you go up the hill (or down the hill), how long will it last? How difficult is it to service? How much curb appeal does it have? We all give all of these things weight when we buy things - some people drive Mercedes, when a 12 year old Kia works just as well for driving to work and to buy groceries.

    I really appreciate Dave's take on the King hubs. His description of them is exactly what my impression is of them after 3 years of having them. and I LOVE them (I just wish they could be easily converted to different axle standards). Does anyone 'need' a Chris King hub? Is it going to make their bike faster, or stronger, or last longer than a hub half that price? Not in any measurable way.

    I was new (again) to cycling in 2014 when I started riding again after about 25 years of being a fat guy sitting on the couch watching TV. When I bought my 'nice' bike (BMC GF-01), it was explained to me that the supplied wheels were more of a lightweight racing wheel. I dont recall specifically, but it was something made by DT Swiss with 20/24 spoke, and probably not suitable for my application int he long term - and suggested I get something a little more robust. The gave me some store credit for them which I applied to something 'better'. Most of the wheels they had hanging on the wall were carbon Enve's and Reynolds, and most of the Dura Ace line of wheels, which were also not really applicable. I had never heard of Chris King or HED and didn't know anything about them (or any other wheel/hub sets for that matter), but the shop manager described the wheel to me, explained why the HED Belgium Plus on CK hubs was a good match, and said they had several customers riding them who were very happy. I took them at their word and had them order them.

    Did they oversell me? Absolutely - they could have sold me a much less expensive 36 hole double-walled touring/rando rim on a decent hub with heavy gauge spokes and I would have probably been fine, and maybe even had a similar experience with them. And if that were the case I'd probably be here in this thread telling everyone about how great they are.

    You guys are all experienced riders, and some of you are experienced wheel builders - you've had your own experiences to reference, and all kinds of customer stories to share. I don't have that - I just have me - As I said, I may be a statistical outlier. All I can do is share my own experience and let the folks reading make their own decisions about how to spend their money.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtiClydesdale View Post
    I appreciate your input with DCGriz and Migen. Overall, I honestly thought of Chris King RC45 hubs because I saw an article with them on. But, your point in regards to aluminum and big guys is very accurate. While Im sure each mfg hub can have its issues... I would prefer to make the wheelset as bombproof as possible. With that said... going with White Industries with the titanium freehub might alleviate the aluminum vs big dude weight factor.

    I surely didnt pick CKs because of the expense but honestly... for myself, my health is worth whatever expense. TBH. Im just truly looking for the a set of wheels that can get me down 75+ lbs and then I can re-evaluate the situation. But even then... I kinda feel that I would like this to be my 5-year rims that last as long as the bike does.

    From what Im grabbing from this post... Im thinking HED Belgium Plus rims with CK/White Industries Titanium freehub 32h on front/back with double butted spokes and brass nipples. I honestly have no clue what that will run me but I do intend to strike some sort of deal with the lbs I plan to purchase the bike from. Like asking for 10-15% off of parts and creation of the wheel instead of asking it off the bike? If anything, that will be my two most wanted items, the custom wheelset creation and the pro fit! (Im sure pro fit is not the appropriate term but the "advanced" fit.)
    I bolded and underlined a segment of your post because I'll attempt to make this the focus of my post.

    I have several CK R45 hubs and I do really like them for what they are. Every time I take them apart to oil them I remind myself how Impressed I am of how they are put together. If there is one thing I dont like about them is the constant attention their preset needs and at this note I would offer my opinion that the CK R45 (or the T11 for that matter) is not the right hub for what you are starting out to do.

    The hub I would use if I was at your position (and I have been close to it, BTW) is the Ultegra 6800. Its a very durable, set-and-forget. Maybe you grease it once a year if you get caught riding in the rain. It's not very popular because of its availability only in 32 or 36h and its weight but rest assured the extra 80 or so grams will not affect you one bit.

    Later on its quite possible your focus will be on other cycling related aspects and that time may be more appropriate for more "racy" oriented stuff like the CK Racing45.

    Just my $0.02 having been there...
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

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