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  1. #1
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    Anyone know a good source to read about lacing/building asymetric wheels

    I'm going to be building a wheel using an asymetric rim. I've read Jobst Brandt's book and a few other sources, but haven't seen much that specifically discusses asymetric (off-center) wheelbuilding. I really don't want to screw up the lacing. Anyone know a good source for reading about this or a good video ?


    Thank !

  2. #2
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    There's nothing different about the build procedure that I can think of. You just build it as you would any other wheel.

    You would do the lacing in exactly the same way as a conventional rim. Correctly of course
    Last edited by bikerjulio; 06-11-2017 at 03:31 AM.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjulio View Post
    There's nothing different about the build procedure that I can think of. You just build it as you would any other wheel.

    You would do the lacing in exactly the same way as a conventional rim. Correctly of course
    You have to orient the wheel properly and lace with spokes going out of the rim correctly...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joegoersch View Post
    You have to orient the wheel properly and lace with spokes going out of the rim correctly...
    as always
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joegoersch View Post
    You have to orient the wheel properly and lace with spokes going out of the rim correctly...
    The spoke bed will be toward the NDS of the rim. That's all you need to know that is different. After that, lacing, truing and dishing are done the same way. As far as tensioning, pay attention to the DS tension. The NDS tension will be what it will be. NDS tension will be higher than that of a symmetrical rim - which of course, is the whole idea behind an asymmetrical rim.

    Good that you read Brandt's book. Before you start, I will suggest that you invest in Roger Musson's excellent e-book "Professional Guide to Wheel Building". Read it start to finish:

    http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

    This is the best $12 you will ever spend. The book comes will free lifetime updates.

    I also suggest you read up on our very own Mike T.'s wheelbuilding page. It is a wealth of knowledge and it's free:

    Wheels
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  6. #6
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    I wasn't trying to be funny. If one is building with an asymmetric rim, then presumably one knows why one is using that rim and will orient it correctly.

    Other than that obvious point I truly cannot think of anything I do differently in an offset rim wheel build.
    Last edited by bikerjulio; 06-11-2017 at 06:01 PM.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjulio View Post
    I wasn't trying to be funny. If one is building with an asymmetric rim, then presumably one knows why one is using that rim and will orient it correctly.

    Other than that obvious point I truly cannot think pf anything I do differently in an offset rim wheel build.
    Thanks. I last built wheels 20 yr ago-MA40--still true!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joegoersch View Post
    I'm going to be building a wheel using an asymetric rim. I've read Jobst Brandt's book and a few other sources, but haven't seen much that specifically discusses asymetric (off-center) wheelbuilding. I really don't want to screw up the lacing. Anyone know a good source for reading about this or a good video ?


    Thank !
    Go to Mike T.'s web pages and you will learn a lot. You can find the link in the sticky at the top of this forum.

  9. #9
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    Thanks, it's great reading !

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Irons View Post
    Go to Mike T.'s web pages and you will learn a lot. You can find the link in the sticky at the top of this forum.
    I don't think I have anything about asymmetric rims do I? Hehehe, I haven't read the site myself for a while Not that there's really much different about building with asymmetrics. I do remember that as my last personal wheels were those.

    I guess getting the rim the right way round plus the knowing that there is nothing else is the knowledge that the newbs need.
    .
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder's with motivation, information and resources.

    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  11. #11
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    Mike,
    Maybe a crazy question. I just read your wheelbuilding site and noticed with interest all the ways to stress relieve a wheel. Why not just take the wheels for a ride to relieve tension, remove tire and do final truing ? I realize a professional wheelbuilder couldn't do this (at least if he wanted to stay in business), but if you are building your own...???

    Thanks..great site ! I REALLY learned a lot !!!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joegoersch View Post
    Mike,
    Maybe a crazy question. I just read your wheelbuilding site and noticed with interest all the ways to stress relieve a wheel. Why not just take the wheels for a ride to relieve tension, remove tire and do final truing ? I realize a professional wheelbuilder couldn't do this (at least if he wanted to stay in business), but if you are building your own...?
    Stress relieving makes the wheel more stable. Not stable in the sense of falling apart but stable in terms of not requiring a lot of attention. Yes, you can put them on the bike and ride but then expect to have to do a fair bit of touchup as everything beds in. Stress relieving also helps with getting more uniform tension.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joegoersch View Post
    Mike,
    Maybe a crazy question. I just read your wheelbuilding site and noticed with interest all the ways to stress relieve a wheel. Why not just take the wheels for a ride to relieve tension, remove tire and do final truing ? I realize a professional wheelbuilder couldn't do this (at least if he wanted to stay in business), but if you are building your own...???
    Thanks..great site ! I REALLY learned a lot !!!
    Sure that's one way and probably the way I did it for the first few decades. But now we all know better; how you build the most perfect wheels and "going for a ride", to me, is amateurish at best.

    The whole process of "optimizing" (the word I use on my site to lump all the effects together) doesn't take a total of 5 minutes in a whole wheel build. Do it right Joeg!

    Edit - oh by the way - one of my buddies did it that way when he replaced a rim the night before our training laps on a MTB race circuit. By the end of lap 1 his wheel was unrideable. Everything had loosened off. Another buddy had a spoke wrench so we saved #1 buddy's day.
    .
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder's with motivation, information and resources.

    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Sure that's one way and probably the way I did it for the first few decades. But now we all know better; how you build the most perfect wheels and "going for a ride", to me, is amateurish at best.

    The whole process of "optimizing" (the word I use on my site to lump all the effects together) doesn't take a total of 5 minutes in a whole wheel build. Do it right Joeg!


    Gotcha! Thanks.


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  15. #15
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    See my edit!
    .
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder's with motivation, information and resources.

    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joegoersch View Post
    Mike,
    Maybe a crazy question. I just read your wheelbuilding site and noticed with interest all the ways to stress relieve a wheel. Why not just take the wheels for a ride to relieve tension, remove tire and do final truing ?
    It sounds like a whole lot more trouble to keep removing wheel and tire and re-true it, than to just do it right in the first place by stress relieving the wheel before you even put it on the bike. And as Mike said with the experience his buddy had, there is a good chance the wheel will relieve itself to the point of being unrideable. Wouldn't you rather have a wheel you don't have to touch up later?
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    It sounds like a whole lot more trouble to keep removing wheel and tire and re-true it, than to just do it right in the first place by stress relieving the wheel before you even put it on the bike. And as Mike said with the experience his buddy had, there is a good chance the wheel will relieve itself to the point of being unrideable. Wouldn't you rather have a wheel you don't have to touch up later?
    Yup. All good points. Got it.


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  18. #18
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    I just finished building my wheels. Took me a long time, but the came out great. Kinlin xr31 rims (asymmetric rear, symmetric front), DT 350 hubs and Sapim Race spokes. I found, quite by accident, that a good way not to rush is to order rims before the frame and have the shipment of the frame get delayed a few weeks. Even had I build them quicker--no bike to ride. So no rush

    One question I have. I've read that increased spoke tensions do not make wheel stronger. I realize that as long as compression does not relieve tension, no benefit. But wouldn't greater tension help, e.g. when a rider hits a curb and put tremendous compression on bottom of rim ?

    Thanks everybody for your help !

  19. #19
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    Joegoersch,

    Taking your time will serve you well as a successful wheelbuilder. It sounds like you are off to a great start. Before you know it, you will have the wheelbuilding bug!

    As far as your question, Mike T. and others may be able to elaborate. So for reference, let's look at the bike from the side as it's moving. We will call the top, bottom, left and right of each wheel N, S, E and W. From what I understand, I don't think this would be of benefit as far as a road hazard impact. Anybody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but if you hit something hard enough to compress the bottom of the rim and have less tension momentarily in the N and S direction, that energy has to go somewhere. It appears to be that at the same time, you will increase tension in the E and W direction.

    So if you are within the range of acceptable tensions, it stands to reason that if you hit something hard enough to lose enough tension that you taco your rim, greater tension in that same scenario may cause enough excess tension to crack spoke holes or even pull a spoke through.

    Of course this is all hypothetical, because if you hit something that hard, you will most likely be thankful that wheel damage is your only problem.

    Now, from a longevity stand point, let's just say that while too little tension can cause spokes to fail early due to fatigue from excessive spoke flexing, too much tension puts more stress on rim spoke holes. As Mike T. once put it, which would you rather have to replace, a broken spoke or a broken rim?
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  20. #20
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    Right. Good points. You would be limited by tension on upper spokes. However, in at least on analysis that I have read, the increased tension seems to be divided by many spokes on top, whereas fewer lower spokes share in relative compression...

  21. #21
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    Wow. Wheels were true. Tensions great. I put tubeless tire on. Spokes slack !!! HUGE drop in tension.

    Is there any consensus on whether tension should be set with tire on or off ?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joegoersch View Post
    Wow. Wheels were true. Tensions great. I put tubeless tire on. Spokes slack !!! HUGE drop in tension.

    Is there any consensus on whether tension should be set with tire on or off ?
    It is normal for tension to be less once you have an inflated tire on. Think of the inflated tire as a boa constrictor squeezing the rim.

    It certainly shouldn't be HUGE. My tensions went down about 1-2 graduations. This is perfectly normal. Granted I have never setup tubeless. I don't think there should be a difference between tubed and tubeless. In this instance, pressure is pressure.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  23. #23
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    There's a difference between rims too I think with some being considered "softer". I would have thought those Kinlins would have been on the stronger end though. I have that rim with no particular problem, although mine is a tubed 40 mm low pressure tire for gravel. Perhaps some tires are tighter than others as well.

    More information about tire, pressure, and tension drop would be useful.

    I'll step aside and let the real expert(s) chime in.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  24. #24
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    [QUOTE=Lombard;5167026] It is normal for tension to be less once you have an inflated tire on. Think of the inflated tire as a boa constrictor squeezing the rim.

    It certainly shouldn't be HUGE. My tensions went down about 1]


    I'm having trouble trying to paste link, but if you Google "tire pressure and spoke tension mtbr.com" you will see nice graphs showing 50% tension drops !!! Several people have noted this.

    I understand WHY tension has dropped. What is less clear is what to do about it. I am not in a hurry to remove goop filled tire.

    I don't want to tension spokes with tire on and exceed tension limits when tire comes off. Nor do I want to bike with slack spokes...

  25. #25
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    exceed tension limits when tire comes off.
    I wouldn't worry about this part. A working rotating wheel goes through constant cycles of decreased and increased tension as it revolves. ie a lot of the time a spoke is more highly tensioned than when at rest.

    If it's really bad then there's nothing wrong with a little retensioning while the tire is on. Better than loose spoke breakage from tension going to zero while in motion.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

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