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  1. #1
    Jno
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    Beyond the benefits, what other effect(s) of deeper wheels?

    I have read the reviews, recommendations and the comparisons between most upgrade wheels. I am not a serious rider for whom marginal gains matter a great deal, so i am at least as interested in the less desirable consequences. I am looking at modest depth (eg dura ace c40). Can anybody speak to extent of wind effects, durability, maintenance hassles or other?

  2. #2
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    FWIW, deep section wheels may make you look sexy and you may pick up more chicks. Then again, they may make you look like a poseur.

    You don't want these if you are going to be on roads with fast moving traffic when 18-wheelers barrel by at 60mph.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

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  3. #3
    Adorable Furry Hombre
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    Wind effects vary with depth and profile.

    I have seen people bring 60-80mm rims on Tour de Nebraska....and LOL'd....those folks learn their lesson quick about Great Plains surface windage.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    FWIW, deep section wheels may make you look sexy and you may pick up more chicks. Then again, they may make you look like a poseur.

    You don't want these if you are going to be on roads with fast moving traffic when 18-wheelers barrel by at 60mph.
    I recall that scene from Braking Away...

    My dentist, who does tris, jumped at some Zipp 808 wheels and really regrets it. Deathly in crosswinds. I expect him to at least change the front wheel to a 404 for next season. Loves the wheels as long as there's no wind, but really, when is that?

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    Generally speaking there's nothing depth specific about "durability, maintenance hassles or other"

    What there is a correlation with is replacement cost though. If you break or wear out brake track with a non proprietary rim we're talking maybe $150 replacement including labor. If you trash a deep carbon rim we're talking big bucks. I don't even know if Shimano sells c40 rim only but you can bet it would be pricey if they did.

    Not to imply needing a replacement any time soon would be likely but it's far from one-in-a-million type chance for sure so replacement cost is something to factor in.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jno View Post
    I have read the reviews, recommendations and the comparisons between most upgrade wheels. I am not a serious rider for whom marginal gains matter a great deal, so i am at least as interested in the less desirable consequences. I am looking at modest depth (eg dura ace c40). Can anybody speak to extent of wind effects, durability, maintenance hassles or other?
    In addition to all the right-on comments about wind and gains, you need to consider your weight. Somebody who weights 50 kg (110 lb) is going to get blown around a lot more than somebody who weighs 100 kg (220 lb).

  7. #7
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    Get the 858 NSW. No cross wind issues at all.

  8. #8
    Jno
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    Thanks

    Thanks for the suggestions. Itíll take more than fancy wheels to delude spectators about my sexiness but the caution about very deep wheels is appreciated. I wonder then if a rim depth in 40s would typically also catch enough cross wind that it might push me significantly offline (either far off line, or quickly/unavoidably offline). I am 175 lbs and ride a few thousand km per yr on roads driven by lots of lumber trucks. Getting blown or drawn into one would be fatal. Thanks in advance if anybody can describe

  9. #9
    Forever a Student
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jno View Post
    Thanks for the suggestions. Itíll take more than fancy wheels to delude spectators about my sexiness but the caution about very deep wheels is appreciated. I wonder then if a rim depth in 40s would typically also catch enough cross wind that it might push me significantly offline (either far off line, or quickly/unavoidably offline). I am 175 lbs and ride a few thousand km per yr on roads driven by lots of lumber trucks. Getting blown or drawn into one would be fatal. Thanks in advance if anybody can describe

    Anything 45mm and over can get you blown into traffic, depending on your weight.

    35mm is the limit of what's safe and not effected much at all by the wind.
    use a torque wrench

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMsRepBike View Post
    Anything 45mm and over can get you blown into traffic, depending on your weight.

    35mm is the limit of what's safe and not effected much at all by the wind.
    Agree. The rims on my first racebike were over 40 mm, and I found them tricky and even dangerous in crosswinds. Experienced riders probably can handle it, but deep wheels are not for me. (I am +/- 145 lbs)

  11. #11
    Jno
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    Thanks again

    Thanks MMsRepBike for the specificity of your answer. I will start limiting my search to depths of less than 40.

    Quote Originally Posted by MMsRepBike View Post
    Anything 45mm and over can get you blown into traffic, depending on your weight.

    35mm is the limit of what's safe and not effected much at all by the wind.

  12. #12
    Boyd Cycling owner
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    Some of the newer rim shapes perform really well in crosswinds, even in the deeper depths.
    Here is South Carolina during the spring time we have races around an industrial airport which could pretty much be nicknamed the factory of wind. Races are regularly ran during 25mph winds (groups of 2-5 riders all over the place) and I have always used 60mm depth for those races.
    A lot of it has to do with tire size as well. If you are running a 28mm tire that is going to have worse crosswind handling and stability compared to a 23mm or 25mm tire.

    If you are going with a good mid depth rim under 50mm that has good aerodynamics at the higher yaw angles (above 10degrees) you will likely see the crosswind stability is ok with those. It's certainly not going to steer you off the road.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by coachboyd View Post
    If you are running a 28mm tire that is going to have worse crosswind handling and stability compared to a 23mm or 25mm tire.
    Say what now? Do you have any independent testing done from a third-party to validate such claim? Or is this just coming from your own "feel/observation"?

  14. #14
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    yes, we can measure that in the wind tunnel and we can see it in the CFD software when designing the rim shapes and the tire to rim interface.

    Crosswind stability is all about the center of pressure. When the wind blows from the side it hits the rim both in front of the fork and behind the fork. Lets take the older V shape rims as an example. When you have a crosswind you have a good airfoil shape on the front of the wheel and a poor airfoil shape on the backside of the wheel. This puts the center of pressure towards the back of the wheel. So when the wind blows it will push on the backside of the wheel and will try to steer the wheel.
    If you have ever been riding in a heavy crosswind and felt like you were steering into the wind, this is why.

    With the newer shapes that are aerodynamic in all wind angles (most modern rim shapes), you have a good airfoil shape on the front and back of the wheel. This takes the center of pressure and moves it forward over top of the skewer. In the CFD software you can plot where the pressure hits. With the center of pressure over top of the skewer, you are still getting hit by the wind, but it's pushing the wheel versus steering it. This is what everybody talks about when they say "having better crosswind stability".

    Now, when the air flows over the backside of the wheel and onto the tire, tire size can affect how the air hits that area. On a 23mm tire, with a wider rim profile, the air will flow over the rim and over the tire. However, introducing larger tires creates a "pocket" and the airflow gets disrupted. This will create a situation where instead of flowing over the rim and over the tire, the wind will push on that tire. This brings the center of pressure backwards from the skewer and introduces crosswind instability again.

    This is purely for crosswind handling and a lot of times in situations like descending or crits, the larger tire is still better to have. However, when I am looking at situations like Kona tri for example I recommend the riders to use a 23mm tire up front and a 25mm tire in the back. With Kona being windy from the side a lot, that narrower tire up front will give the better stability and aerodynamics.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jno View Post
    Itíll take more than fancy wheels to delude spectators about my sexiness but the caution about very deep wheels is appreciated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    FWIW, deep section wheels may make you look sexy and you may pick up more chicks.
    Until you get passed by them.

    As for the concerns of crosswind, the front wheel is affected much more than rear.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by coachboyd View Post
    yes, we can measure that in the wind tunnel and we can see it in the CFD software when designing the rim shapes and the tire to rim interface.

    Crosswind stability is all about the center of pressure. When the wind blows from the side it hits the rim both in front of the fork and behind the fork. Lets take the older V shape rims as an example. When you have a crosswind you have a good airfoil shape on the front of the wheel and a poor airfoil shape on the backside of the wheel. This puts the center of pressure towards the back of the wheel. So when the wind blows it will push on the backside of the wheel and will try to steer the wheel.
    If you have ever been riding in a heavy crosswind and felt like you were steering into the wind, this is why.

    With the newer shapes that are aerodynamic in all wind angles (most modern rim shapes), you have a good airfoil shape on the front and back of the wheel. This takes the center of pressure and moves it forward over top of the skewer. In the CFD software you can plot where the pressure hits. With the center of pressure over top of the skewer, you are still getting hit by the wind, but it's pushing the wheel versus steering it. This is what everybody talks about when they say "having better crosswind stability".

    Now, when the air flows over the backside of the wheel and onto the tire, tire size can affect how the air hits that area. On a 23mm tire, with a wider rim profile, the air will flow over the rim and over the tire. However, introducing larger tires creates a "pocket" and the airflow gets disrupted. This will create a situation where instead of flowing over the rim and over the tire, the wind will push on that tire. This brings the center of pressure backwards from the skewer and introduces crosswind instability again.

    This is purely for crosswind handling and a lot of times in situations like descending or crits, the larger tire is still better to have. However, when I am looking at situations like Kona tri for example I recommend the riders to use a 23mm tire up front and a 25mm tire in the back. With Kona being windy from the side a lot, that narrower tire up front will give the better stability and aerodynamics.
    So this is your study? Until there are more than just 2 third-party analysis that come to the same conclusion, you're just talking out of your a$$.

    Prove me wrong and provide at least 3 independent studies that conclude the same as you then I'll believe you.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keoki View Post
    Prove me wrong and provide at least 3 independent studies that conclude the same as you then I'll believe you.
    You're putting up a pretty high bar here. I'm not sure I've ever seen 3 independent studies of anything. Unless you count every fall as a test of gravity.

  18. #18
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    Here's some good reading for you.
    https://altairhyperworks.com/html/en...431_MNGodo.pdf

    What we have done is not really a "study". Just noting what actually happens with wind flowing over objects at different speeds and shapes.
    www.boydcycling.com Handcrafted Revolution

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by coachboyd View Post
    Here's some good reading for you.
    https://altairhyperworks.com/html/en...431_MNGodo.pdf

    What we have done is not really a "study". Just noting what actually happens with wind flowing over objects at different speeds and shapes.
    Thanks! I'll read it.

    What year was this published? It seems like the tests were done sometime back in 2006 or 2007?

    Also, there is no mention of what we're talking about - 23mm tire is better in the cross wind vs. 28mm.
    Last edited by Keoki; 01-18-2018 at 01:52 PM.

  20. #20
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    We've seen the exact same thing when we've gone to the wind tunnel. It's valid. I have literally no dog in the aerodynamic fight here - whatever you want to believe about how much faster you're going to go is yours to keep yourself up late at night with, but wider tires consistently show more cross wind handling effects. This post from several years ago mentions it but doesn't go deep into it.

    And again, if 1 or 3 watts is going to make someone blow by you, there are bridges in Brooklyn and London and various other places I'd be happy to sell you. There was one in Washington that had particular difficulties with cross winds if I recall...

  21. #21
    Wandering
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keoki View Post
    So this is your study? Until there are more than just 2 third-party analysis that come to the same conclusion, you're just talking out of your a$$.

    Prove me wrong and provide at least 3 independent studies that conclude the same as you then I'll believe you.
    Do you have studies contradicting Coach Boyd & November Dave? You seem to have pretty strong feelings about this ....
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    FWIW, deep section wheels may make you look sexy and you may pick up more chicks.
    Can confirm.
    Ghurarmu shirkushí agh azgushu. Zant ya apakurizak. GŻl-ní anakhizak.

  23. #23
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    The newer Shimano C40 rims are actually less than 40, they should be the same depth as the previous generation C35s. A little deeper than shallow rims, enough to definitely add some bling factor but not a huge danger in crosswinds.

    I have had 3 sets of C24s (RS80-C24, RS81-C24, DA9000-C24) and just started using a pair of NOS DA9000-C35s that I got at a really good price. I've been happy with these Shimano carbon/aluminum blend wheels for the most part... I definitely like the aluminum braking tracks. Of all of them I liked the RS81-C24s the least. I would note that there are some complaints that there is braking pulsation that can be somewhat mitigated by toeing in brake pads... I did experience this with one set but not the others.

    So far I'm liking the C35s but in all honestly I don't think they are doing anything for me performance-wise compared to the C24s other than weighing me down an extra 150g :-) ...

  24. #24
    changingleaf
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    Many modern rims under 45mm will handle well in cross winds and be very durable.

  25. #25
    Jno
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    Revised question

    My 2nd post wasnít clear and I donít know how to delete it entirely but I am hoping to learn something about wheels in the tier below Zipp and Enve because I expect to make compromises at the C$ 2000-2500 price and want the compomises to be informed ones. Assuming all of the quantifiable variables are equal ( price, weight, rim depth around 35-40), is there a consensus that carbon is still preferable, or that carbon is to be avoided, and why? (I donít ride in rain or descend mountains so braking conditions are generally optimal).
    Last edited by Jno; 01-21-2018 at 04:58 AM.

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