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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    What, now they're selling carbon tires???? Wow.....I gotta get that!!!!
    LOL! Ok, the tubular tires failed in the Tour of Oman.

  2. #52
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    The Trek carbon wheels were all carbon and I probably did get lucky. No idea whether they were rebranded or not.

    I've done some searching about some of November Dave's comments. The 30 mm carbon wheels on my new Giant TCR weigh 1334 grams per Giant's website. I have found several sets of aluminum rim wheels that weigh less than 100 grams more, which I will probably use when/if the Giant rims fail out of warranty. I do think there's an aero advantage to deeper wheels but the cost of the carbon rims compared to similar weighing aluminum rims is ridiculous. I've had different wheels on different bikes and I think the hubs make a significant difference as well as the wheel material.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDCowboy View Post
    I do think there's an aero advantage to deeper wheels.....
    Oh definitely! They will make you about 0.1mph faster at sustained speeds of 20mph!

    Quote Originally Posted by JDCowboy View Post
    I've had different wheels on different bikes and I think the hubs make a significant difference as well as the wheel material.
    And they may make you an additional 0.05mph faster!

    OK, I'm being admittedly snarky. My point is unless you are competing in a race for a large sum of money, it won't matter.

    Lighter rims may make you feel faster because they will spin up faster from a stop. Once up to speed, you won't notice a difference.

    And hubs? Yes, we are all impressed by hubs that will spin forever in the work stand. But given all the other forces on the bike, you won't notice this either except in extreme cases. Just about all the well known hubs out there are quite good as far as this issue is concerned.

    I can tell you for sure that my gravel bike with 500+g rims is just as fast as my road bike with 450g rims. There is a 5lb. difference between the total weight of each bike. The hubs in the road bike spin freer in the stand than those on the gravel bike. I'm not a lightweight, but not a clyde either at 175lbs.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  4. #54
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    I've heard the argument that deeper wheels and better hubs only make you feel faster, and that may be correct. But if they make you feel faster then you feel faster! I have had 50 mm wheels and I felt they allowed me to stay in a paceline and group at speed easier than the shallower wheels I replaced. I have nice hubs on my current bike and I think they make a difference. I am rarely the fastest up the hill but I am never the last down the hill. I also weigh about 175 and I go down hill (in a straight line) faster in the same position than most others. I may be wrong, but I attribute that to the aerodynamics of the bike and the smoothness of the hubs. My observation is that my bike rolls faster than than many other bikes so that if I traded bikes with the guy or gal next to me, they would go faster downhill on my bike than I would on theirs. No way to know unless we actually traded, but that is what it seems like to me. I would also guess that your gravel bike would not keep up with your road bike up or down hills even if they had the same tires. It may be a small difference but I'll bet there is a difference. Thanks for the post.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDCowboy View Post
    I've heard the argument that deeper wheels and better hubs only make you feel faster, and that may be correct. But if they make you feel faster then you feel faster!
    Granted, if that make you enjoy your bike more and want to ride more, then it's all good.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDCowboy View Post
    I am rarely the fastest up the hill but I am never the last down the hill.
    Precisely where aero equipment will make a difference. However, your position on the bike (race vs. upright) will make more difference than aero wheels. On uphills, aero won't make any difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDCowboy View Post
    I also weigh about 175 and I go down hill (in a straight line) faster in the same position than most others. I may be wrong, but I attribute that to the aerodynamics of the bike.....
    Possibly.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDCowboy View Post
    ....and the smoothness of the hubs.
    Probably not. What you would notice is if your hub bearings are worn or they are cheap hubs. Any good quality hub - Shimano, White Industries, Chris King, DT, etc. - will probably be equal in rolling resistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDCowboy View Post
    I would also guess that your gravel bike would not keep up with your road bike up or down hills even if they had the same tires. It may be a small difference but I'll bet there is a difference.
    Possibly a small difference. What was surprising to me is that the difference was not perceivable. At the same time, the gravel bike feels much more stable, planted and compliant giving me more confidence on the much less than perfect roads in my county.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  6. #56
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    Thanks for the comments, Lombard. I just went from an 09 Madone, which was a great bike but I was ready for a change, to a Giant TCR with the integrated seat post. The Giant is both subjectively and objectively faster (my times on the same roads are faster on the Giant). One of the more interesting differences was the downhill stability of the Giant TCR. It is much more stable and goes faster easier on the downhill turns than the Madone, running the same size tires. The Giant actually has slightly more aggressive geometry than the Madone.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDCowboy View Post
    Thanks for the comments, Lombard. I just went from an 09 Madone, which was a great bike but I was ready for a change, to a Giant TCR with the integrated seat post. The Giant is both subjectively and objectively faster (my times on the same roads are faster on the Giant). One of the more interesting differences was the downhill stability of the Giant TCR. It is much more stable and goes faster easier on the downhill turns than the Madone, running the same size tires. The Giant actually has slightly more aggressive geometry than the Madone.
    I had the same experience when I went from a 2007 Trek Pilot OCLV to my 2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon. The stability is so much better on the Cannondale. The Trek feels like a noodle in comparison. Carbon technology came a long way in 7 years.

    The gravel bike I just bought, of course, is way more stable for the obvious reasons of what it is designed for. Wider tires, CroMo steel frame and a slightly longer wheelbase will obviously make a bike more stable. What surprised me is that I initially expected the gravel bike to feel slower. It didn't. It actually feels just as fast if not faster! Placebo effect of a new bike? Hmmmmm, don't think so. Two other riders I let try it out and they said the same thing!
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  8. #58
    changingleaf
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    If you're getting a new bike I highly recommend disc brakes. They solve the problem you are confronted with, plus you have much better and more reliable braking. The biggest negative is that the bike will be a little heavier. The second issue is that if you need to switch wheels you may need to adjust the brakes or true the rotors and that can be a bit of a learning curve.

    You should be able to trust oem rim brake rims, but will not get much if any improvement in braking.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by changingleaf View Post
    The biggest negative is that the bike will be a little heavier.
    The biggest negative is that the bike will be heavier, uglier, less aerodynamic and will require more maintenance. Fixed.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notvintage View Post
    The biggest negative is that the bike will be heavier, uglier, less aerodynamic and will require more maintenance. Fixed.
    Actually, the new disc brake bikes are almost right at the same weight as rim brake bikes. You can get them well under 17 pounds.

    Aerodynamics is actually starting to get better than rim brake counterparts. Look at the new bikes that completely hide the cables in the frame. Plus there is no bulky caliper brake catching wind.

    Ugly is a point of view, but personally something like the new BMC Timemachine with disc brakes, or the new Ridley Noah SL disc looks super attractive to a lot of people.

    Maintenance. Just got done riding my gravel bike with disc brakes. Abused it all season long (some good crashes, mud, and sticks), and now I finally have a squealy front brake. It's going to take me 30 seconds to put in new brake shoes, and if I have to replace the rotors it'll take another minute (centerlock FTW).

    It's not going to be for everybody, but I think it's a much nicer system (especially with the descending I do).
    www.boydcycling.com Handcrafted Revolution

  11. #61
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    Yup, disc wheels (and centerlock) if buying a new bike, especially if riding near the mountains.

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