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  1. #1
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    CK R45 hubs..slow?..

    I recently bought a used (2013) set of Zipp 303's with Chris King R45 hubs. The original owner claimed to have raced and maintained them regularly in the recommended manner. I also lubed the ring gear and bearings and adjusted them (twice!) They spin nice and round in my truing stand, but on my bikes they seem slow..
    Maybe it's just my butt feel, but comparatively, on two different bikes, they are slower than my Mavic R-Sys wheels (2009) even though they are 4 oz. lighter.
    They are mounted with Vittoria tubs (elites) and the R-Sys are Vittoria clincher Pave's...both 25mm.
    Do you think it's time for a bearing change?...or are CK just slower?

  2. #2
    changingleaf
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    If they rotate slower when clamped into the bike than they do when sitting in the truing stand then you may have the preload set too tight. The skewers load the hub so the preload adjustment on the hub needs a little bit of play before mounting into the frame.

  3. #3
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    Bearings are a tiny part of what slows a rider down. Unless you lubed them with super clue or they are so tight they are binding they are almost certainly not slowing you down by a perceivable amount.

    I once had a rear hub where I rode around with what a mechanic called a "totally cooked" bearings because I was a bit clueless and I definitely did not get for feel any faster with new ones.

  4. #4
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Bearings are a tiny part of what slows a rider down. Unless you lubed them with super clue or they are so tight they are binding they are almost certainly not slowing you down by a perceivable amount.
    I'm always amazed at people who can "feel" how much slower their hubs are.

    Wheel hubs have around ~1-3 watts drag. Which equates to about 0 to 0.1mph difference. I don't know how you feel that.
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    Pictures of speedometer or it didn't happen.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by changingleaf View Post
    If they rotate slower when clamped into the bike than they do when sitting in the truing stand then you may have the preload set too tight. The skewers load the hub so the preload adjustment on the hub needs a little bit of play before mounting into the frame.
    Thanks,..I tried different skewer clamping loads..snug but not tight...re-adusted preload, maybe I was a little too "within spec" ie; a 1/8 turn back...the rear seems markedly better, the front about the same..I'll re-mount the chain and give it a try...

  7. #7
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    It could be noise that's making them feel slower. As I recall, the Chris King rear hub is super noisy. And I think Mavic hubs are virtually silent. I have some super noisy Carbon Ti hubs with FSE rims and the noise was a real distraction. I put some slick honey grease in the pawls and it's quieted down substantially. And the bike "feels faster" now IMO.

  8. #8
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    Interesting. I've had the opposite experience.

    My very first set of 'nice' wheels was a pair of HED Belgium C2's on CK R45D. Later, I had a bike with some DT 240's, and it 'felt' much slower. Other bikes I've had since have had other hubs (DT 350's, HED, and White Industries). For some reason, the bike with the CK hubs always felt like it rolled much freer than the others. It's almost certainly not true. At least not in any substantial way. It was just a 'feel' thing that I could never really quantify in any way.

  9. #9
    teoblar
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    I believe that hub drag can manifest itself several different reasons (grease, high POE, seals, overloaded/underloaded, etc.) My anecdotal two cents: I had a wheelset on DTSwiss hubs and my chain would slap the chainstay when I coasted or backpedaled. There was so much drag on the cassette that it was pushing the chain forward almost to the point of reverse chain suck (would that be chain blow?).

  10. #10
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    I have a set of wheels with R45s, and for whatever reason, I prefer my Easton Echo hubs. They feel better, however worthless of a statement that is. The R45s could probably use some love though... they do have a lot of freehub drag and the higher-mileage Eastons have basically none.

    But if you don't like them, sell 'em! They're are worth quite a bit on the used market.

  11. #11
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    awhile back I put 3 bikes with 3 different hubs on the stand, one with DT Swiss 240, one Dura Ace 9000 hub, one with CK R45, and gave them a hard spin, repeat several times each. Each time, the DT always come out on top, then Dura Ace, then CK. The DT really outlasted the Dura Ace and CK as the later 2 are closer together. It was just a fun thing to try, I'm not in anyway saying CK hub is slower than the other 2 on the road with a person riding the bike, because it doesn't feel like it's slow to me. But I sure like the quiteness of the Dura Ace though.

  12. #12
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    I don't really do the clincher thing, but my experience is that Pavé tubulars roll a lot nicer than the Elites. I wouldn't discount that as a factor.

  13. #13
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by teoblar View Post
    I believe that hub drag can manifest itself several different reasons (grease, high POE, seals, overloaded/underloaded, etc.) My anecdotal two cents: I had a wheelset on DTSwiss hubs and my chain would slap the chainstay when I coasted or backpedaled. There was so much drag on the cassette that it was pushing the chain forward almost to the point of reverse chain suck (would that be chain blow?).
    Did it ever occur to you that maybe they needed to be serviced? Threads like this make me laugh...I'm pretty sure that most of the people starting them or posting in them don't have any idea how the drive mechanisms in any of these hubs work. Or have any idea how cartridge bearings work and what 'preload' means...and whether their hubs are even adjustable. I show customers how the drive mech works on hubs all the time because most of them are so easy to pull apart and also because most of them need to be cleaned/lubricated on a regular basis. Most people have heard the term 'pawl' somewhere along the line and think every hub has them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Did it ever occur to you that maybe they needed to be serviced? Threads like this make me laugh...I'm pretty sure that most of the people starting them or posting in them don't have any idea how the drive mechanisms in any of these hubs work. Or have any idea how cartridge bearings work and what 'preload' means...and whether their hubs are even adjustable. I show customers how the drive mech works on hubs all the time because most of them are so easy to pull apart and also because most of them need to be cleaned/lubricated on a regular basis. Most people have heard the term 'pawl' somewhere along the line and think every hub has them.
    Although I appreciate your response and opinion, if you had read the original post you would know the the hubs had been disassembled, cleaned and re-lubed in keeping with CK's maintenance instructions (twice!) AND the previous owner had maintained them on a regular...actually when I disassembled them for the first time, they required very little cleaning...
    I've enjoyed your "technical" input in the past, even learning something once in awhile, but offering an opinion just for the sake of being rude is a bit much...

  15. #15
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by ls1togo View Post
    Although I appreciate your response and opinion, if you had read the original post you would know the the hubs had been disassembled, cleaned and re-lubed in keeping with CK's maintenance instructions (twice!) AND the previous owner had maintained them on a regular...actually when I disassembled them for the first time, they required very little cleaning...
    I've enjoyed your "technical" input in the past, even learning something once in awhile, but offering an opinion just for the sake of being rude is a bit much...
    You do realize he was replying to someone else??

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    You do realize he was replying to someone else??
    It did not seem particularly relevant to the post you're referring to..but if Cxwrench was commenting specifically to that post, my apologies to him....

  17. #17
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by ls1togo View Post
    ..but if Cxwrench was commenting specifically to that post, my apologies to him....
    Well considering he quoted that post, he was commenting specifically.

  18. #18
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ls1togo View Post
    Although I appreciate your response and opinion, if you had read the original post you would know the the hubs had been disassembled, cleaned and re-lubed in keeping with CK's maintenance instructions (twice!) AND the previous owner had maintained them on a regular...actually when I disassembled them for the first time, they required very little cleaning...
    I've enjoyed your "technical" input in the past, even learning something once in awhile, but offering an opinion just for the sake of being rude is a bit much...
    Understood. And I was replying to someone else...easy to figure out cuz I quoted his post. If you greased it when you put it back together try cleaning it out and using some good quality motor oil instead. When the R45 first came out King used grease and there was a problem w/ the drive ring sticking. They (King) advised us to use oil. I put Mobil 1 in ours and never had another problem.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Understood. And I was replying to someone else...easy to figure out cuz I quoted his post. If you greased it when you put it back together try cleaning it out and using some good quality motor oil instead. When the R45 first came out King used grease and there was a problem w/ the drive ring sticking. They (King) advised us to use oil. I put Mobil 1 in ours and never had another problem.
    Got it!, Thanks for the always informative advice...I did use Mobil 1...btw, I've ridden it several more times since my original post and now believe it's mostly in my head!.. but I did find out the preload adjustment on these (my) wheels is very sensitive and it's important to get right.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    They (King) advised us to use oil.
    What weight?

  21. #21
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisgah2000 View Post
    What weight?
    Doesn't really matter...say 5w-30. Motor oil. Not gear oil. Not transmission fluid although that would probably work fine.
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