Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    16

    Contemplating Ardennes/Belgium+ Disc Wheelset - # Spokes for 185lbs?

    Had several folks recommend HED wheels for me. The ardennes only come in 24H. The HED site claims ~195lbs rider limit. I weigh 180-190 depending on time of year. I'm a hard rec rider who does many 100mi++ rides over the season with lot's of climbing and long descents around the SF Bay Area.

    Between the remoteness of the rides I often do, my skirting close to the weight limit, and the increased(?) stress disc breaking might put on the spokes, I'm a bit squirrelly about 24H wheels. Oddly the Ardennes don't go higher but the Belgium+ disc rims to (24/28/32).

    Was thinking of 24F/28R (though I saw one poster suggest he would go with 32 rear... no idea of their weight/riding).

  2. #2
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    7,877
    Let's say you end up not having any problems with a 24 spoke rear wheel for argument sake. What will you have gained by taking the chance to fine out? Hint, the answer is: nothing. So why bother finding out if you can 'get away with it' when you stand nothing to gain.

  3. #3
    A wheelist
    Reputation: Mike T.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    11,185
    There can be no downside to 32 spokes in the rear wheel - except for a gain of about 30 grams/1oz of extra weight over a 28 spoke wheel. But the benefits of those spokes will be real.
    .
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder's with motivation, information and resources.

    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  4. #4
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,534
    Quote Originally Posted by hebecb View Post
    Between the remoteness of the rides I often do, my skirting close to the weight limit, and the increased(?) stress disc breaking might put on the spokes, I'm a bit squirrelly about 24H wheels. Oddly the Ardennes don't go higher but the Belgium+ disc rims to (24/28/32).

    Was thinking of 24F/28R (though I saw one poster suggest he would go with 32 rear... no idea of their weight/riding).
    Running equipment at the limit of its tolerance is never a great idea - especially if you ride in very remote areas. 24F/28R is OK for rim brake wheels. I build my own rim brake wheels 24F/32R.

    Personally, I would build disc wheels 32 spoke, 3 cross on both front and rear as the braking forces on the hubs are tremendous. I would go for the HED Belgium+, White Industries CLD or XMR hubs, DT Aero Comp spokes and brass nipples.

    They will weigh a little more than the Ardennes, but will give you many more trouble-free miles. And trust us when we tell you, you won't go noticeably faster on the lighter wheels unless you are a racer. If that's the case, save the ultra-light delicate equipment for race day and ride something else all other times. Also keep in mind that more spokes give you a stiffer wheel.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  5. #5
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    16
    Thanks for the thoughts folks. For the record, I was never seriously contemplating running 24 in the rear. Thanks for the thoughts folks. I currently run 32 front and back and really was wondering if it's overkill but, as you all have pointed out; the additional weight is not of great consequence but hopefully the second-guessing I experience humping up Coleman Valley will be made up for with peace of mind bumping down (anti) Joy Road :-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    ... brass nipples ...
    BTW Lombard, why brass? Longevity? Stiffness? Aesthetics??

  6. #6
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    7,877
    Quote Originally Posted by hebecb View Post
    Thanks for the thoughts folks. For the record, I was never seriously contemplating running 24 in the rear. Thanks for the thoughts folks. I currently run 32 front and back and really was wondering if it's overkill but, as you all have pointed out; the additional weight is not of great consequence but hopefully the second-guessing I experience humping up Coleman Valley will be made up for with peace of mind bumping down (anti) Joy Road :-D


    BTW Lombard, why brass? Longevity? Stiffness? Aesthetics??
    If you get good alloy nips they are the better choice. Recommending brass would be based on outdated information.

    This is what sapim says: In the past, aluminum nipples had only one positive argument, the weight. All other features like corrosion resistance, friction, stiffness were specific to brass nipples. This changed in the last years drastically. All our aluminum nipples are now anodized. Salt spray tests showed better results than brass nickel plated nipples. You can choose 7 different colors. We had been able to reduce friction with a special coating. As an effect you don’t need to oil or grease the nipple like you should with the brass version. For the last three years, Sapim has used the 7075 material and have additional strength added by the heat treatment T6. Alloy nipples are now stronger than brass. Aluminum nipples are more expensive but for sure much better than brass. For those who care about weight, special colors and quality, aluminum nipple is advised.


    ...and they sell brass also so no reason to believe it's marketing BS.

  7. #7
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    21
    I'm about the same weight as you. Mine are rim brakes but I went with the HED Belgiums with 28f/32r.
    I've been bouncing around Sonoma county with these wheels for the last 4,000 miles and they're still as true as the day I got them.
    I paired these with the White Industries T-11 hubs. It's a great wheelset.

  8. #8
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,534
    Quote Originally Posted by hebecb View Post
    BTW Lombard, why brass?
    Mainly corrosion resistance. However, if you are to believe what Sapim now says and Jay quoted, that gets thrown out the window. This is the first I've heard this new take.

    I'd like to hear from some of the wheel builders here on this topic as well.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  9. #9
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    20,554
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    All our aluminum nipples are now anodized. Salt spray tests showed better results than brass nickel plated nipples.
    However, one nick in the anodizing, like from your spoke wrench or from the steel threads on a spoke, and this all goes out the window. A single gap in the anodization and you have a corrosion path to the aluminum underneath.

  10. #10
    grizzly moderator
    Reputation: dcgriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,714
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Irons View Post
    However, one nick in the anodizing, like from your spoke wrench or from the steel threads on a spoke, and this all goes out the window. A single gap in the anodization and you have a corrosion path to the aluminum underneath.
    Precisely! When this happens, corrosion works underneath the anodized layer creating a blister which eventually flakes off exposing more untreated aluminum.
    I tried the Sapim last year, on a wheel I use during the summer in a coastal area I frequent, wondering whether the spoke wrench would be liable on scratching the anodized layer deep enough to compromise longevity due to corrosion. So far so good.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  11. #11
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,534
    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    Precisely! When this happens, corrosion works underneath the anodized layer creating a blister which eventually flakes off exposing more untreated aluminum.
    I tried the Sapim last year, on a wheel I use during the summer in a coastal area I frequent, wondering whether the spoke wrench would be liable on scratching the anodized layer deep enough to compromise longevity due to corrosion. So far so good.

    Ahhh, I was hoping you would post here, DC. I don't expect anything would fail in only one year unless it were REALLY bad or you rode every day in salt spray and rain.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  12. #12
    grizzly moderator
    Reputation: dcgriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,714
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Ahhh, I was hoping you would post here, DC. I don't expect anything would fail in only one year unless it were REALLY bad or you rode every day in salt spray and rain.
    Not a matter of failing in one year. Corroding aluminum shows signs of powdery accumulations way before failing and after it starts there is nothing one could do to stop it.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  13. #13
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    Not a matter of failing in one year. Corroding aluminum shows signs of powdery accumulations way before failing and after it starts there is nothing one could do to stop it.
    But then it's a relatively straightforward matter of replacing it, no?

  14. #14
    grizzly moderator
    Reputation: dcgriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,714
    Quote Originally Posted by hebecb View Post
    But then it's a relatively straightforward matter of replacing it, no?
    Yes, which could lead to rebuilding the wheel.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  15. #15
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    Yes, which could lead to rebuilding the wheel.
    Ok but, to quote your quote, how important is that? How often, in your experience, do multiple nipples start to corrode. I don't have enough data points. The last time I replaced a wheel I did have multiple corroded nipples but that was after many (8?) years of service. ​

  16. #16
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Bflath View Post
    I'm about the same weight as you. Mine are rim brakes but I went with the HED Belgiums with 28f/32r.
    I've been bouncing around Sonoma county with these wheels for the last 4,000 miles and they're still as true as the day I got them.
    I paired these with the White Industries T-11 hubs. It's a great wheelset.
    i'm leaning towards 32/32 with Belgiums and White Disc Hubs. Tempted to get a blue hub and nipples to match the trim on my new ride but was warned (above) about nipple corrosion (I shudder every time I think about that ;-) )

  17. #17
    grizzly moderator
    Reputation: dcgriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,714
    Quote Originally Posted by hebecb View Post
    Ok but, to quote your quote, how important is that? How often, in your experience, do multiple nipples start to corrode. I don't have enough data points. The last time I replaced a wheel I did have multiple corroded nipples but that was after many (8?) years of service. ​
    Neither a right nor a wrong answer on that question. I'd like to see at least 20,000 miles out of each wheelset before needing to rebuild it. Brass nipples will last for that long and then some. Not sure for the anodized aluminum yet.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  18. #18
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    436
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    If you get good alloy nips they are the better choice. Recommending brass would be based on outdated information.

    This is what sapim says: In the past, aluminum nipples had only one positive argument, the weight. All other features like corrosion resistance, friction, stiffness were specific to brass nipples. This changed in the last years drastically. All our aluminum nipples are now anodized. Salt spray tests showed better results than brass nickel plated nipples. You can choose 7 different colors. We had been able to reduce friction with a special coating. As an effect you don’t need to oil or grease the nipple like you should with the brass version. For the last three years, Sapim has used the 7075 material and have additional strength added by the heat treatment T6. Alloy nipples are now stronger than brass. Aluminum nipples are more expensive but for sure much better than brass. For those who care about weight, special colors and quality, aluminum nipple is advised.


    ...and they sell brass also so no reason to believe it's marketing BS.
    This is interesting. I wonder if they're talking about one of their nipples in particular? I've seen lots of corroded alloy nipples and for years have preferred brass.

  19. #19
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: 4slomo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    116
    Check alloy nipples when disassembling a wheel. I've never seen anodizing or other surface treatment last at the nipple seat contact, resulting from building a wheel.
    Hey everybody, ride my wheels! They ride good, real good.
    I'm a wheel builder. SRLPE Wheel Works. Send me a PM.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 10-25-2016, 04:18 AM
  2. HED Belgium/Ardennes Plus tubular tire recommendations
    By deviousalex in forum Cyclocross
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 08-10-2014, 04:56 PM
  3. Contemplating Correct Crankset Size
    By sultanofsuede in forum Components, Wrenching
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 07-01-2009, 09:28 AM
  4. Replies: 22
    Last Post: 11-17-2008, 05:40 PM
  5. Contemplating a 12-27
    By filtersweep in forum Components, Wrenching
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 08-05-2008, 07:07 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •