Dura Ace hubs made by..........?

[Mike T.]

I have a nice set of Dura Ace hubs that see duty in my fall/winter/spring wheels and today I was e-mailing with a bike industry small manufacturer and I mentioned my DA hubs and he dropped this bomb, and I quote - "DA is made by Joytech the last few years". I've asked him to back up that statement of course as it's a biggie.

Can anyone back that claim up?

[sanrensho]

I call BS. As a Taiwan-based company, doesn't Joytech manufacture all their components in Taiwan? If so, wouldn't DA hubs be packaged as "Made in Taiwan"? Should be easily verifiable against the boxes (notwithstanding prebuilt wheels).

Also verifiable against the hub service parts, which are labeled "Product of Japan" AFAIK.

[danl1]

If Joytech could make things of that quality of fit and finish, why wouldn't they do it for their own business/other customers?

I call BS.

Mind you, it's perfectly fine stuff. But it's not in the same league.

[Mike T.]

Could it be that Joytech is a sub-contractor for Shimano DA hubs and makes them to a contracted standard? Could it be that Joytech have a plant in Japan?

I dunno, the bearer of that news hasn't gotten back to me yet with confirmation.

[sanrensho]

Joytech's website and corporate literature indicate that they have one plant in Taiwan and two in China.

It would make zero sense for Shimano to subcontract its hub production to a Taiwanese company for production in Japan. If they were to do that, they could instead access Japanese subcontractors without going to a Taiwanese company. For that matter, I've never heard of a Japanese-made Joytech hub, nor would that make any sense economically.

I think it's complete and unsubstantiated BS.

[Dave Cutter]

Could it be that Joytech has recently been acquired by Japanese interests... that also own part plants in Japan (and maybe other places)?

[tednugent]

probably doesn't help... but the box for the 5700 Freehub says "Product of Malaysia"

but..a quick google search confirms this, including Dura Ace wheels at least are made in shimano's plant in Malaysia

[Jay Strongbow]

If Joytech could make things of that quality of fit and finish, why wouldn't they do it for their own business/other customers?
I call BS.

Mind you, it's perfectly fine stuff. But it's not in the same league.

Because their customers wouldn't pay that price for a "Joytech" branded hub but Shimano and their customers would for a "Dura Ace" branded hub.

Not to say I think that's what's going on, I have no clue. But it would make sense for a company to make something for another company with high name recognition and not make it under their own name. It happens all the time in just about any industry.

[Mike T.]

t would make sense for a company to make something for another company with high name recognition and not make it under their own name. It happens all the time in just about any industry.

Giant bicycles for instance. Until fairly recently they didn't produce their own name brand frames. Same with Trigon.

[Mike T.]

Hey up!! My source confirms it. "Serious as a heart attack" he says. That's his claim, not mine, so don't shoot the messenger. There's only one 100% source for the info and I'll bet they ain't sayin'.

[danl1]

Because their customers wouldn't pay that price for a "Joytech" branded hub but Shimano and their customers would for a "Dura Ace" branded hub.

Not to say I think that's what's going on, I have no clue. But it would make sense for a company to make something for another company with high name recognition and not make it under their own name. It happens all the time in just about any industry.

Right, but a common misconception is that cost and price have any meaningful correlation. If they can produce DA quality product, they would be able to sell it (under their own name or OEM) at a premium to their normal prices, but still at a discount to lower Shimano lines.

I'm not saying it isn't happening, but it doesn't feel likely.

[Mike T.]

Right, but a common misconception is that cost and price have any meaningful correlation. If they can produce DA quality product, they would be able to sell it (under their own name or OEM) at a premium to their normal prices, but still at a discount to lower Shimano lines.
I'm not saying it isn't happening, but it doesn't feel likely.

Can you imagine the contract that Shimano would make a sub company sign? They wouldn't be able to turn out anything that remotely resembled the product they were contracted to make.

[biker jk]

probably doesn't help... but the box for the 5700 Freehub says "Product of Malaysia"

but..a quick google search confirms this, including Dura Ace wheels at least are made in shimano's plant in Malaysia

The wheels are assembled in Malaysia which doesn't mean the hubs can't be made in Taiwan or China. Take the Orbea Orca for example. It says Made in Spain but the frame is manufactured in Asia. I believe that 60% or more of the value added needs to be in Spain to claim it's made there.

[AndrwSwitch]

I've heard that RST used to make RockShox forks, maybe still does. But the forks they sell under their own name are total garbage.

So here's a scenario, that I present with no backup or sourcing. (So y'all can take it or leave it.)

I have a factory that can make some fairly high-precision bike parts. My marketing department consists of probably two people who mostly call other brands or manage existing relationships. Every year, each brand with whom I have an existing relationship puts in an order for a bunch of my product, made to a high standard, and sold to them without branding. Maybe also without paint or whatever. The production window's not that big, so when that happens, I ask everyone to work a bunch of overtime and I make all that stuff. It's six weeks of hard work, but hey, they pay. Then, that work is over for the year. I'm hesitant to try to spread the work over a longer period because the specs often change a little bit from year to year, and the order sizes often do too. I don't want a bunch of inventory sitting around in my factory - I'm a factory, not a warehouse - and I really don't want it if I don't know I'm going to sell it to my big, corporate customer and I'm not allowed to sell it elsewhere.

I've got a couple of other big customers, but I'm probably only working on these big orders about eight months out of the year. So what do I do with the other four months? I've got a trained staff of machinists. They're worth something to me to keep around. Obviously I need to catch up on organization and maintenance of the equipment around the plant, but I'd be paying these guys to sit on their hands a lot if I didn't make something. So I pay them to put the cheap tooling on the machines and crank out some parts. I sell almost all of it, which is to say that my tolerances are pretty loose. I use cheap materials. But there are some customers that will take what they can get, and I've also talked a couple of distributors into buying some of the really cheap stuff because they can sell it to shops that'll carry the part for people who are just trying to keep their bikes rolling for as little as possible.

I do think it's kind of funny when the companies that mostly do production for others start dabbling in some high-end production under their own names and it doesn't occur to them to cook up a new brand that people don't immediately associate with "cheap garbage," though. While I'm generally happy enough with Tektro's products, a lot of people turn their nose up at them. But TRP? Ooh, aah. Even thought "Tektro" is still right there in the name.

[coachboyd]

When I went to Taiwan I visited a CNC factory while I was there. It was down an alley and just in a steel garage building and you would never know looking at the building that there were dozens of machines and tens of thousands of hubs inside there. They were producing hub shells for a lot of the well known hub companies, but that is all they did.
Blank hub shells would then get shipped out to the respective companies where finish detail (pawls, engagement ring, anodizing, bearings, laser etching) all took place. I did not see any Shimano hubs while I was there (and don't want to reveal exactly which ones I did see), but it may be a situation where the hub shells are produced in one location and the guts of the hubs are produced in another and all finished and assembled in yet another factory.

[dcgriz]

This is exactly what is happening with a lot if not most of assembled equipment. Parts are made at various locations from several companies and then assembled wholly or partially at one or more locations.

[tednugent]

maybe one of the other wheelbuilders that make part of a living, building wheels can take a look at the packaging DA hubs come in.

I have 5700, but it doesn't help

[dcgriz]

I have never experienced or read anything negative about the Durace and the Ultegra hubs. They have fallen out of favor because they are not offered in the twenty something drillings since Shimano has been pushing their factory made wheels but if you are looking for a 32h or 36h hub they are hard to beat. I think they make a heck of a wheel for the non-racers and a heck of a training wheel for the racers.
I feel the best kept secret about hubs is that most people can not tell the difference between midrange and the boutique hubs costing twice or three times as much if the name would not be stenciled on them.
So I don't care if Joytech, Miserytech or anytech makes them, wholly or partially, as long as they make them the way they have been making them. Although I own several R45 hubs of various configurations, the Ultegra is my favorite 32h hub of all times, at least till now, considering I can buy the set for less than the cost of the front hub of the boutique variety.

[Lelandjt]

I say Dura-ace and XTR are still made in Japan, all lower spec components in Thaiwan, Malaysia, ect but nothing Shimano is from mainland China.

[Mike T.]

I say Dura-ace and XTR are still made in Japan.

My industry insider source says both DA & XTR are Joytech made. And the source is adamant.

[Mike T.]

I have never experienced or read anything negative about the Durace and the Ultegra hubs. They have fallen out of favor because they are not offered in the twenty something drillings since Shimano has been pushing their factory made wheels but if you are looking for a 32h or 36h hub they are hard to beat. I think they make a heck of a wheel for the non-racers and a heck of a training wheel for the racers.
I feel the best kept secret about hubs is that most people can not tell the difference between midrange and the boutique hubs costing twice or three times as much if the name would not be stenciled on them.
So I don't care if Joytech, Miserytech or anytech makes them, wholly or partially, as long as they make them the way they have been making them. Although I own several R45 hubs of various configurations, the Ultegra is my favorite 32h hub of all times, at least till now, considering I can buy the set for less than the cost of the front hub of the boutique variety.

Yeah I don't care who makes them either. I have both DA and Ultegra hubs and for their cost, both are excellent. Yes Shimano hubs have fallen out of favor due to their limited drillings, and I too fear it's because they would rather push their wheelsets - just like Mavic put nothing into (stand alone) rim development anymore.

But DA do make hubs in 24/28. BWW sell them, optioned here -

Blackset Race Dura-Ace 7900

They would be my fave hubs, in 24/28, especially as they have a titanium cassette carrier (and King don't).

Colorado Cyclist stock them in 28/28 (others might too).

[sanrensho]

My industry insider source says both DA & XTR are Joytech made. And the source is adamant.

If your source is that adamant then perhaps he or she can cough up some evidence.

[maximum7]

Excel Sports Boulder - Online Bicycle Retailer

[dcgriz]

Yeah I don't care who makes them either. I have both DA and Ultegra hubs and for their cost, both are excellent. Yes Shimano hubs have fallen out of favor due to their limited drillings, and I too fear it's because they would rather push their wheelsets - just like Mavic put nothing into (stand alone) rim development anymore.

But DA do make hubs in 24/28. BWW sell them, optioned here -

Blackset Race Dura-Ace 7900

They would be my fave hubs, in 24/28, especially as they have a titanium cassette carrier (and King don't).

Colorado Cyclist stock them in 28/28 (others might too).

Your are correct. I should have clarified I tend to buy mine from a UK source because of their price structure. They do not list the DA 24h. I typically go for the 32h unless I build with deep rims so never gave it much thought. The Ultegra is not made in less than 32h.

[morgan1819]

My industry insider source says both DA & XTR are Joytech made. And the source is adamant.

Who's the source? I was a national sales rep for a cycling products company (including wheels) for 3 years, I never, ever had any reason for anonymity.

I couldn't care if my C24's are made in a shack in Kentucky, they are by far the highest quality, best performing wheels I have ever ridden. This includes custom White/HED, Zipp, Mavic, BWW, Campy/Fulcrum, Boyd, etc.

So while your 'anonymous' source is highly questionable, ultimately, your statement is pointless, because regardless of where they are manufactured, it's done using Shimano machining, Shimano's designs, and Shimano's QC.