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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Nice sound!
    He doesn't look like typical harpist. But it's the sound that matters.


  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bvber View Post
    He doesn't look like typical harpist. But it's the sound that matters.
    I always wanted to tune one to do the opening 24 notes of the solo to "Stairway" when plucked.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    I always wanted to tune one to do the opening 24 notes of the solo to "Stairway" when plucked.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by .je View Post
    Hahahaha. Ok, I'll just play it in the state-of-the-art Mike T. wheelbuilding lab then. I was going to put a playing card in my spokes so that I could play Stairway while riding slowly uphill and loop it on U-Tube.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    If there is any residual oil from luning the threads, the sticky flag won't stick very well.
    Riigghhttt.
    .
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Riigghhttt.
    Oh com'on Mike. You're not going to tell me that you're so fastidiously neat that no oil gets where it shouldn't.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  7. #32
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    I just absolutely love how these threads start, and then, especially, how they end.

    How is it any newbie even subjects themselves to what goes on here, lol?

    Between that, and also the RBR hyenas sniping at each other while feasting on newbie carcass, it's a wonder 'spoke-twist' isn't really about neuronal synapses bungee jumping out of turn

    Semaphore "flag" is officially raised.

    Jmcgg333, welcome to the Nut House.

    You can check in any time you like, but you can never leave.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelgianHammer View Post
    I just absolutely love how these threads start, and then, especially, how they end.

    How is it any newbie even subjects themselves to what goes on here, lol?

    Between that, and also the RBR hyenas sniping at each other while feasting on newbie carcass, it's a wonder 'spoke-twist' isn't really about neuronal synapses bungee jumping out of turn

    Semaphore "flag" is officially raised.

    Jmcgg333, welcome to the Nut House.

    You can check in any time you like, but you can never leave.
    Umm, I don't see what you found inapproprate in this thread.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelgianHammer View Post
    You can check in any time you like, but you can never leave.
    You mean "You can checkout any time you like..."

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelgianHammer View Post
    you can never leave.
    Give that a try and we'll see if you're right.
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  11. #36
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    People focus a ton on windup, which is justified, but I find that spoke line correction, getting all the parts to settle into their final position, and de-stressing are more important. Most of our builds go out with bladed spokes, on which it is super easy to avoid any windup, yet sometimes a build takes somewhat south of an eternity to finally settle down.

    My perspective on Archetypes is that they are nice rims, but they can be a super b---h on wheels to get settled down. Whenever I build a set with them, I expect that I will spend a lot more time getting them stable to where they don't move under stress (we use some proprietary methods to get them there and check that they are finally there, these are not subtle or gentle methods). Compared to, say, a HED Belgium+, it might take 3 or 4 extra rounds of work to get an Archetype completely stable. Our one known problem build from 2017 was coincidentally an Archetype. What causes this? Search me. I just know our experience. Not saying they aren't nice rims, as they are, but in my experience they take extra work to get stable.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    People focus a ton on windup, which is justified, but I find that spoke line correction, getting all the parts to settle into their final position, and de-stressing are more important. Most of our builds go out with bladed spokes, on which it is super easy to avoid any windup, yet sometimes a build takes somewhat south of an eternity to finally settle down.

    My perspective on Archetypes is that they are nice rims, but they can be a super b---h on wheels to get settled down. Whenever I build a set with them, I expect that I will spend a lot more time getting them stable to where they don't move under stress (we use some proprietary methods to get them there and check that they are finally there, these are not subtle or gentle methods). Compared to, say, a HED Belgium+, it might take 3 or 4 extra rounds of work to get an Archetype completely stable. Our one known problem build from 2017 was coincidentally an Archetype. What causes this? Search me. I just know our experience. Not saying they aren't nice rims, as they are, but in my experience they take extra work to get stable.
    Interesting. I hear you on stress relieving being more than just negating windup. Things like getting the spokes to seat into the hub flanges and rim bed. I can count on my readings on the Park meter dropping by at least 3 or 4 graduations after my first round of stress relieving.

    Do you have any experience building the newer H+ Son Hydras? I'm building up a set of those now. Interestingly, while in the past, I've prided myself in being able to say my wheels have never pinged (not even while stress relieving), these wheels pinged while I was relieving them!

    So when you say it takes awhile for the Archetypes to "settle down", I'm wondering if I'll have the same experience with the Hydras.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  13. #38
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    Haven't built all that many Hydras, but the ones I've built haven't required the same level of extra work that Archetypes have.

    General disclaimer - all of this is just my experience. Build enough wheels, you'll see a lot of stuff. Happy to share experiences and insights, but take them for what they are. I don't have any agenda to promote one product over another here (we have our own big site where we can do that, but generally we don't even really do that there).

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    Haven't built all that many Hydras, but the ones I've built haven't required the same level of extra work that Archetypes have.

    General disclaimer - all of this is just my experience. Build enough wheels, you'll see a lot of stuff. Happy to share experiences and insights, but take them for what they are. I don't have any agenda to promote one product over another here (we have our own big site where we can do that, but generally we don't even really do that there).
    Experience counts for a lot. I think most of the people who have been on this forum for awhile know you well enough to know that you don't come here to shill.

    That's good to know about the Hydras!
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    shill
    Why would you even mention that word, especially in relation to ND, or any of the pro wheel people here who frequently give out advice and opinion?
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Why would you even mention that word, especially in relation to ND, or any of the pro wheel people here who frequently give out advice and opinion?
    Joke. No offense intended.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    I always wanted to tune one to do the opening 24 notes of the solo to "Stairway" when plucked.
    You mean the riff they stole from Spirit's "Taurus"?

    Hey, try adding a guitar pickup to the spokes!
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Joke. No offense intended.
    Be careful....you know how difficult wheelbuilders can be...
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    Be careful....you know how difficult wheelbuilders can be...
    I never knew this until I became a wheelbuilder. Now I know why I can be so difficult.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  20. #45
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    I certainly didn't take any offense at Lombard's post, nor would I classify myself as difficult. Thick skinned? Pachydermically so.

    Despite having been on forums as a wheel builder* for about 8 years now, having expressed nothing but genuinely held and helpfully intended thoughts, it all too often happens that I have to waste scarce time defending things I've said. All too often, this looks something like me presenting four valid tests we've done, corroborated by three other tests that we had nothing to do with, and thousands of wheels built worth of experience, going against a stubbornly held "but I know what I know even if I have no evidence to show for it!"

    Four years ago, I took dear sweet HELL on a forum from a "GD credentialed engineer!!" who just wouldn't f---ing be told that tire volume changed inflation equivalencies. Wouldn't accept either Boyle's or Laplace's Laws, couldn't take any logical iterative/evidential arguments, claimed that valve pressures had nothing to do with it, and while he never went ad hominem, he did quite strongly state that I had absolutely no idea what I was talking about on that or any other topic. Now he is that forum's foremost advocate of the variable relationship between tire pressure and volume. I don't lose sleep over this crap, but, you know...

    Other professionals, and I will pointedly include Ergott, Boyd, and CXWrench** in this, also suffer the same with regularity despite what tons of evidence would show as their genuine desire to help. I've excluded some others on purpose and still others through omission, but those guys stand out in particular.

    It's not that we always have the right answer and shut up and listen, it's that we spend our lives doing this, get the repetitions, work with the products, and have our ears keenly tuned to what's happening. I know that I get TONS of back channel info that never makes it to the public, and I'm sure they do as well. It makes a difference.

    *I now - the better part of a decade, two successful rim designs in the CV, and who even knows how many wheels built backing me - call myself a wheel builder with some assurance. This is not a designation which I've self-conferred flippantly. Others may be quicker to self identify as such, there's no wallet-sized card that say you are or aren't a wheel builder (and if there is I don't trust it).

    ** Ok, ok, CX can be a little difficult, but good intentions are always in there, and he's usually right.

    ***Edit - Most important part! The Close Encounters theme is what I hear most often when doing the mid-build-tone-pluck. All the darn time, in fact.
    Last edited by November Dave; 05-16-2018 at 07:06 AM. Reason: I missed the important part!

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    Despite having been on forums as a wheel builder*
    Under your forum ID, it says, "Join Date: Dec 2011".
    Wouldn't it have been better if it says "Join Date: Nov 2011"? Just thinking out loud...

  22. #47
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    Above the butt of the bibs of every kit we've ever done, it says "November." A few years ago, I was doing a marathon MTB race and this really cute Canadian woman was just crushing it in the tech parts where I was stronger in the straight aheads where she would draft, so we rode together for several hours. At one point she said "I just can't take pulls at this pace I hope you don't mind" to which I replied "just tell me my butt looks nice and I'll keep going all day." The she says "oh, you're already MY Mr. November!" Nicest thing I've ever been told.

    It took me a long time to join this forum. We'd been in business 13 months by 12/11.

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