Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 47
  1. #1
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    90

    First Wheel Keeps coming out of True

    Built up rear 36h Archetype / T11 / DT Swiss Comps. Build went well with advice here. But pretty much after every ride I have to mess with it. Sometimes not much - but after anything pot-hole-ish there's spots where it comes out pretty bad.

    I'm finding also that every once in a while a NDS spoke will completely lose tension.

    I'm pretty sure this all has to do with spoke twist? I could be wrong so please advize - but whenever I go back to fix in the stand - I can feel the spoke turning too - so I try to turn around more and come back. Trouble is when I go back it still feels like it's turning.

    Wondering if at this point if I keep trying to fix issues that eventually it will "twist itself out" - whereby constant monkeying - eventually the spokes will settle in. Or if I should just undo the whole thing and start from just a thread showing and get some kind of clamp? Or should I pull em all out and use a different spoke prep? I used linseed oil initially with some lube where the hole meets the nip.

    Can someone also advize PSI? Running 28 Conti 4 Seasons @ 85-90 PSI / 32 Vittoria Hyper @ 80-85 PSI.

  2. #2
    'brifter' is a lame word.
    Reputation: cxwrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    12,596
    That's a TON of pressure for tires that size, similar to well over 130 with 23mm tires. Why on earth are you using that much pressure in 28 and 32mm tires? For example I'm 170lbs and inflate my 32's to 45/55.

    ETA: I've never had a problem w/ DT Comps twisting.
    Last edited by cxwrench; 1 Week Ago at 02:48 PM.
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  3. #3
    Russian Troll Farmer
    Reputation: No Time Toulouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    1,418
    If your spokes are twisted, you did a very poor job building that wheel. I can tell you that NONE of the wheels I've built had ANY spoke twist. Time to start over and do it right.
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  4. #4
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    496
    I'm betting that there was insufficient tension and not enough stress relieving. The Archetype is a very robust rim.

  5. #5
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    25,636
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch562 View Post
    I'm betting that there was insufficient tension and not enough stress relieving. The Archetype is a very robust rim.

    Ditto. Quality parts collection, which leaves how it was built.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  6. #6
    A wheelist
    Reputation: Mike T.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    11,258
    Two things -

    1) Read my site all about spoke twist and windup relief and all that kinda stuff. Perform it all to the n'th degree and loose spokes and going outta true will be a thing of the past. I haven't had a wheel - MTB, road, gravel, track - that's needed touching post-build for 25 years. It's all in the details.

    2) Lower those tire pressures! Bigtime.

    3) Ok, three things - well-built wheels don't need any kind of sticky stuff to prevent the nipples from unscrewing. Sufficient tension takes care of that.
    .
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder's with motivation, information and resources.

  7. #7
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    90
    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    If your spokes are twisted, you did a very poor job building that wheel. I can tell you that NONE of the wheels I've built had ANY spoke twist. Time to start over and do it right.
    So when you turn the nip - the spoke should be still right?

  8. #8
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    90
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Two things -

    1) Read my site all about spoke twist and windup relief and all that kinda stuff. Perform it all to the n'th degree and loose spokes and going outta true will be a thing of the past. I haven't had a wheel - MTB, road, gravel, track - that's needed touching post-build for 25 years. It's all in the details.

    2) Lower those tire pressures! Bigtime.

    3) Ok, three things - well-built wheels don't need any kind of sticky stuff to prevent the nipples from unscrewing. Sufficient tension takes care of that.
    Thanks will review.

  9. #9
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,930
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Two things -

    1) Read my site all about spoke twist and windup relief and all that kinda stuff. Perform it all to the n'th degree and loose spokes and going outta true will be a thing of the past. I haven't had a wheel - MTB, road, gravel, track - that's needed touching post-build for 25 years. It's all in the details.

    2) Lower those tire pressures! Bigtime.

    3) Ok, three things - well-built wheels don't need any kind of sticky stuff to prevent the nipples from unscrewing. Sufficient tension takes care of that.
    Listen to Mike, he knows his s#!t about wheels! Follow his website - especially the section on stress relieving. Do all 6 methods of stress relieving. The only area where I disagree with Mike is that he goes by sound to determine tension. I'm a tools guy and like to use a tensiometer. While these can be off somewhat in absolute tension, it is more important that you have equal tensions around one side of a wheel than anything else.

    Another excellent source for wheel building is Roger Musson's ebook. $12 with lifetime free updates:

    https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

    As far as twist goes, while the "two steps forward, one step back" works to some degree, I have found there can still be a little twist left. All you have to do is another stress relieving by squeezing spoke pairs to find this out. If the wheel goes out of true, well then, you still had some twist.

    Another way you can deal with this is with one of these:

    https://www.amazon.com/Competition-C.../dp/B001PTEN62

    Note that there is both a left and right handed version of this tool.

    The other way you can make this easier in the future is to use bladed spokes like the DT Aero Comps. That way, you will immediately see when the spoke twists.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  10. #10
    Russian Troll Farmer
    Reputation: No Time Toulouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    1,418
    Quote Originally Posted by jmcg333 View Post
    So when you turn the nip - the spoke should be still right?
    No, you need to back off any twist as you tighten, then you need to stress-relief afterwards to get any twist you may've missed.

    A good indicator is whether the newly built wheel makes any pinging noises when first used. A properly built wheel will make no pings at all, a poorly made wheel will make many.
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  11. #11
    Schuylkill Trail Bum
    Reputation: SPlKE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,876
    Chiming in here... before I built my first MTB wheels, I got a copy of Jobst Brandt's book The Bicycle Wheel. This was pre-internet, so buying a book was a must.

    https://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Wheel...3XXFG7CBM046ST

    The wheels I built based on what I learned are still tough as nails.

    And how cool is the name Jobst? Very cool.

  12. #12
    'brifter' is a lame word.
    Reputation: cxwrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    12,596
    You should be able to 'feel' spokes twisting as you're adding tension after a while. You can feel the spoke break free of the nipple when you turn it. With spokes like DT Comp it should be pretty obvious when the spoke is twisting even though it's a round spoke.
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  13. #13
    A wheelist
    Reputation: Mike T.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    11,258
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Listen to Mike, he knows his s#!t about wheels!
    Yep I agree with you there!

    The only area where I disagree with Mike is that he goes by sound to determine tension.
    Hmmm I don't think that is totally true about me. Let's see what I do say on the topic -

    "Let's mention spoke tension meters here. These are a tool, that when used with a cross-reference chart, allow us to gauge the tension of a spoke. Rims and their integrity are the limiting factor in how much tension we should place on a spoke even though rim tension figures are not easy to find.
    In any wheelbuild, the lighter the rim, the thinner the spokes, the less the number of spokes, then the more that each spoke is contributing and the more that each spoke is relied on for wheel integrity. So then it follows that the building of the wheel will have to be more precise and the less room there is for error. It then follows that a tensiometer, and the information it provides, would be of more use here.
    But light rims (sub 425grams maybe), thin spokes (DT Revolution/Sapim Lazer 2.0/1.5/2.0mm) and low spoke numbers (sub 32) are at the cutting edge of wheel technology and not the place where Newby wheelbuilders should be getting their start into the art. So let's learn to walk before we start to run. I stand behind the fact (I can prove it so it is a fact) that good wheels can be built without tensiometers but maybe even *I* would use one if I was building a 24 spoke wheel with Revolution spokes. This article is not about those kinds of wheels.

    I personally do not own a tension meter and never have. But I don't build cutting edge, ultra light wheels with small numbers of spokes either [that need finer tension tolerances]. I gauge tension from experience - just like a mechanic, without the use of a torque wrench, gauges the tightness of a bolt. I'm not suggesting you don't need one or should not get one. I'm just living proof that good wheels can built without one and you can do it too. What's the basic definition of a "good" wheel? One where the spokes don't break, rims don't crack and nipples don't unscrew? My wheels fit those criteria without the use of a tention meter and always have, for decades.

    An update!! Recently I was given a spoke tension meter by Ric Hjertberg of WheelFanatyk.com fame. I'm in the process of using it on all my wheels and evaluating it and my past wheel tensioning guesswork! I've now added a new page - about my new tensiometer."


    That's what I have on my site about tensiometers Lom.

    There's probably also a section that says I prefer to use sound (pluck & listen) to gauge relative tensions (from one spoke to its neighbor) while trueing or evaluating a wheel over keep picking up, applying, reading and setting down a tensiometer. For me it's far faster and just as accurate.
    .
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder's with motivation, information and resources.

  14. #14
    Russian Troll Farmer
    Reputation: No Time Toulouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    1,418
    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    .....
    And how cool is the name Jobst? Very cool.
    Eh. not so much in German and dutch speaking areas....
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  15. #15
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,930
    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    A good indicator is whether the newly built wheel makes any pinging noises when first used. A properly built wheel will make no pings at all, a poorly made wheel will make many.
    Possibly. Wheels will usually ping if both of these are true:

    1) They have windup that was not stress relieved.
    2) The spoke threads and spoke holes weren't oiled or greased.

    So.......spokes may not ping even if they were built poorly as in weren't stress relieved. My wheels never ping while I'm stress relieving. But yes, if you hear pinging, it is obvious that more than one step was skipped.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  16. #16
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,227
    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    Eh. not so much in German and dutch speaking areas....
    What about France?

    I kind of like the name Corleone, Italy.

  17. #17
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,930
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Yep I agree with you there!


    Hmmm I don't think that is totally true about me. Let's see what I do say on the topic -

    "Let's mention spoke tension meters here. These are a tool, that when used with a cross-reference chart, allow us to gauge the tension of a spoke. Rims and their integrity are the limiting factor in how much tension we should place on a spoke even though rim tension figures are not easy to find.
    In any wheelbuild, the lighter the rim, the thinner the spokes, the less the number of spokes, then the more that each spoke is contributing and the more that each spoke is relied on for wheel integrity. So then it follows that the building of the wheel will have to be more precise and the less room there is for error. It then follows that a tensiometer, and the information it provides, would be of more use here.
    But light rims (sub 425grams maybe), thin spokes (DT Revolution/Sapim Lazer 2.0/1.5/2.0mm) and low spoke numbers (sub 32) are at the cutting edge of wheel technology and not the place where Newby wheelbuilders should be getting their start into the art. So let's learn to walk before we start to run. I stand behind the fact (I can prove it so it is a fact) that good wheels can be built without tensiometers but maybe even *I* would use one if I was building a 24 spoke wheel with Revolution spokes. This article is not about those kinds of wheels.

    I personally do not own a tension meter and never have. But I don't build cutting edge, ultra light wheels with small numbers of spokes either [that need finer tension tolerances]. I gauge tension from experience - just like a mechanic, without the use of a torque wrench, gauges the tightness of a bolt. I'm not suggesting you don't need one or should not get one. I'm just living proof that good wheels can built without one and you can do it too. What's the basic definition of a "good" wheel? One where the spokes don't break, rims don't crack and nipples don't unscrew? My wheels fit those criteria without the use of a tention meter and always have, for decades.

    An update!! Recently I was given a spoke tension meter by Ric Hjertberg of WheelFanatyk.com fame. I'm in the process of using it on all my wheels and evaluating it and my past wheel tensioning guesswork! I've now added a new page - about my new tensiometer."


    That's what I have on my site about tensiometers Lom.

    There's probably also a section that says I prefer to use sound (pluck & listen) to gauge relative tensions (from one spoke to its neighbor) while trueing or evaluating a wheel over keep picking up, applying, reading and setting down a tensiometer. For me it's far faster and just as accurate.
    OK Mike, I stand corrected. It's been awhile since I've read through your site.

    About the plucking method, let's just say I will not hear differences in tone unless there is a large disparity. These are spokes, not guitar strings. The tone between DS and NDS is pretty obvious. However, if there are differences of 2 or 3 graduations on the Park meter, I won't detect that by sound. Chalk it up to some hearing loss over the years from working in noisy environments.

    And yes, I use the tensiometer even on spokes and rims that aren't in your above category. As you may remember, I'm the guy who likes to overbuild most my stuff. Past as well as present builds I'm working on all have 450g+ rims as well as either DT Champion, Competition or Aero Comp spokes. I'd like to try DT New Aero spokes, but they don't seem to be very available yet.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  18. #18
    Adorable Furry Hombre
    Reputation: Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    25,636
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    OK Mike, I stand corrected. It's been awhile since I've read through your site.

    About the plucking method, let's just say I will not hear differences in tone unless there is a large disparity. These are spokes, not guitar strings. The tone between DS and NDS is pretty obvious. However, if there are differences of 2 or 3 graduations on the Park meter, I won't detect that by sound. Chalk it up to some hearing loss over the years from working in noisy environments.

    And yes, I use the tensiometer even on spokes and rims that aren't in your above category. As you may remember, I'm the guy who likes to overbuild most my stuff. Past as well as present builds I'm working on all have 450g+ rims as well as either DT Champion, Competition or Aero Comp spokes. I'd like to try DT New Aero spokes, but they don't seem to be very available yet.
    No...but they follow the same tendencies.

    The thing to remember is that the relationship between tension and pitch on a wire is not linear at all. IIRC frequency is related to the square root of tension. A small change in tension is a large change in pitch.

    https://home.kpn.nl/ooije006/david/w...tension_p.html

    Which is why say on a violin with a a steel E-string...everyone (even ringer-soloists) always use machined-fine-tuners and not friction pegs to adjust it said string...because you do not have the resolution of tension-adjustment to get the frequency correct with anything other than a machined adjuster.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  19. #19
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    2,443
    First build, put a piece of tape on the spoke, and watch it wind up and unwind when you go 1/2 turn back to 1/4 turn on the nipple. If it unwinds all the way, you just tightened it 1/4 turn. If it didn't come back to original position, it is wound up, turn it 3/4 turn can come back 1/2.... you get it ?
    BANNED

  20. #20
    'brifter' is a lame word.
    Reputation: cxwrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    12,596
    I wanna know if the OP has lowered his ridiculously high tire pressure yet...
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  21. #21
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,227
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    No...but they follow the same tendencies.

    The thing to remember is that the relationship between tension and pitch on a wire is not linear at all. IIRC frequency is related to the square root of tension. A small change in tension is a large change in pitch.

    https://home.kpn.nl/ooije006/david/w...tension_p.html

    Which is why say on a violin with a a steel E-string...everyone (even ringer-soloists) always use machined-fine-tuners and not friction pegs to adjust it said string...because you do not have the resolution of tension-adjustment to get the frequency correct with anything other than a machined adjuster.
    Maybe a pair of those strike sticks can be used for wheel tuning.


  22. #22
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,930
    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    First build, put a piece of tape on the spoke, and watch it wind up and unwind when you go 1/2 turn back to 1/4 turn on the nipple. If it unwinds all the way, you just tightened it 1/4 turn. If it didn't come back to original position, it is wound up, turn it 3/4 turn can come back 1/2.... you get it ?
    This method works as long as the tape doesn't slip around the spoke.

    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    I wanna know if the OP has lowered his ridiculously high tire pressure yet...
    Old habits die hard. But to be fair, we still don't know how much the OP weighs.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  23. #23
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,930
    Quote Originally Posted by bvber View Post
    Maybe a pair of those strike sticks can be used for wheel tuning.

    Nice sound!
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  24. #24
    A wheelist
    Reputation: Mike T.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    11,258
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    This method works as long as the tape doesn't slip around the spoke.
    What would be the force acting on the tape to make it do this?
    .
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder's with motivation, information and resources.

  25. #25
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Lombard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,930
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    What would be the force acting on the tape to make it do this?
    If there is any residual oil from luning the threads, the sticky flag won't stick very well.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Rear wheel keeps going out of true
    By sdeeer in forum Wheels and Tires
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 07-18-2014, 07:09 PM
  2. Rear Mavic CCU keeps going out of true
    By spade2you in forum Wheels and Tires
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09-24-2009, 07:06 AM
  3. Shimano Cassette Lockring Keeps Coming Loose - Ideas?
    By richsto in forum Components, Wrenching
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09-13-2007, 10:04 PM
  4. FSA crank keeps coming loose
    By STLRoady in forum Components, Wrenching
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 08-27-2006, 01:42 AM
  5. Help! ISIS Crank Bolt Keeps Coming Loose
    By fbagatelleblack in forum Components, Wrenching
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-04-2006, 06:18 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT ROADBIKEREVIEW

VISIT US AT

roadbikereview.com and the ConsumerReview Network are business units of Invenda Corporation

(C) Copyright 1996-2018. All Rights Reserved.