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  1. #26
    RoadBikeReview Member
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    I always use Damon Rinard's Spocalc, but you will need access to Excel to use it.
    (use 2,25 for 2X and 3,31 for 3X)

    Though if your spokes are long you have made a mistake measuring or lacing.
    As you can see from the fractions 2:1 lacing requires spokes that are ~10% longer on the DS.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourrealdad View Post
    So just laced the wheel up and something is very wrong. All my DS spokes are way too long. Did I lace the wheel wrong?
    My lacing pattern is 2 DS spokes 2x and next to each other through the spoke holes and then one radial NDS next to them.

    I just put the measurements into wheelpro's spoke calc again and got the same measurements.
    Did you do your own measurements for ERD and hub dimensions or did you trust the ones you found from the rim and hub makers?
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  3. #28
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    I used my own measurements for ERD. Never had an issue with hub dimensions, especially from BHS.

    Here are pics of how I laced them. Weird if they should be too short. Sorry for the side ways pics. Don't know why it does that.

    Help with lacing 16:8 wheel-img_5994.jpgHelp with lacing 16:8 wheel-img_5995.jpgHelp with lacing 16:8 wheel-img_5996.jpgHelp with lacing 16:8 wheel-img_5997.jpg

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourrealdad View Post
    I used my own measurements for ERD.


    Quote Originally Posted by yourrealdad View Post
    Never had an issue with hub dimensions, especially from BHS.
    "Never did" doesn't mean it never will.

    Are you sure the spokes you're using are the length stated on the box?
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post




    "Never did" doesn't mean it never will.

    Are you sure the spokes you're using are the length stated on the box?
    Yep, I measured the spokes. It is also my understanding that to be off a bit on the hub does not greatly affect spoke length like ERD does. I can measure it again, but I think I have a lacing issue if the spokes should be shorter since I used Wheelpro's calculator.

  6. #31
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    I calculate DS spoke length at 279.8 mm.

  7. #32
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    So I tried opening that Excel spoke calculator, but it says Macros have been disabled and doesn't give me an option to enable them. Founds Macros under tools, but can't seem to get them to work. I honestly have no idea what I am supposed to be doing here.

    Also are my NDS lengths off as well or were those calculated correctly from wheelpro?

    Any other way for me to get these spoke lengths?

    Thanks,

    Kevin

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourrealdad View Post
    So I tried opening that Excel spoke calculator, but it says Macros have been disabled and doesn't give me an option to enable them. Founds Macros under tools, but can't seem to get them to work. I honestly have no idea what I am supposed to be doing here.
    Also are my NDS lengths off as well or were those calculated correctly from wheelpro?
    Any other way for me to get these spoke lengths?
    Just use Roger Musson's Wheelpro spoke calculator and be done with it. It's as easy as pie. I just plain works and if it didn't, Roger would fix it because he wrote it. It has Help built into it and he's available for questions about its use as are some of us who use it.

    https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/

    BTW - don't trust any other way of getting spoke lengths other than measuring them yourself. Ever.
    .
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilders with motivation, information and resources.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Just use Roger Musson's Wheelpro spoke calculator and be done with it. It's as easy as pie. I just plain works and if it didn't, Roger would fix it because he wrote it. It has Help built into it and he's available for questions about its use as are some of us who use it.

    https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/

    BTW - don't trust any other way of getting spoke lengths other than measuring them yourself. Ever.
    Mike that is what I used. Please tell me how to use it correctly?

    Help with lacing 16:8 wheel-screen-shot-2018-04-12-8.27.01-am.png

  10. #35
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    I don't think you need to enable macros. The spreadsheet works fine for me without but it may stop the ability to import rim and hub data from the database.

    And Mike, I'm sure it's a great calculator but without the ability to use fractions in the crosses part it's useless for 2:1 lacing.

  11. #36
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    Also, you should have treated the DS as half of a 32 spoke wheel. It will take 16 spokes, remember.

  12. #37
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    Mackers nailed it. You treated the wheel as a 24 spoke wheel and technically it isn't. You need to do two separate calcs - one for the DS (enter 32 spokes!!!!!!!!!!!!) and one for the NDS - here I don't think it matters how many spokes you enter as they're radial and the length isn't affected by the spoke numbers.

    Edit - and enter the "crosses" for the NDS as zero as the NDS is radial.
    .
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Mackers nailed it. You treated the wheel as a 24 spoke wheel and technically it isn't. You need to do two separate calcs - one for the DS (enter 32 spokes!!!!!!!!!!!!) and one for the NDS - here I don't think it matters how many spokes you enter as they're radial and the length isn't affected by the spoke numbers.

    Edit - and enter the "crosses" for the NDS as zero as the NDS is radial.
    I'm now thinking would his existing spokes work if he re-build this wheel 3x on the DS?
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I'm now thinking would his existing spokes work if he re-build this wheel 3x on the DS?
    Only a spoke calculator can answer that Lom.
    .
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Only a spoke calculator can answer that Lom.
    Very true, Mike. We'll leave that up to the OP.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  16. #41
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    Doing the math on a McDonald's napkin I get 290 mm for 3X triplet laced. No guarantees

    As an aside, OP, this has got to be just about the flexiest rear wheel setup imaginable. That rim is flimsy and the hub is really just a regular hub drilled for triplet lacing. A true designed for triplet hub would have the left flange way further to the outside to make up for the lack of lateral stiffness caused by having only eight spokes there. Check out what f.i. Campy does with their G3 hubs.

  17. #42
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    Awesome, thank you this is the info I need. I will see if this works.

    Not to worried about the wheel. I have yet to break any hub in my life and the only spoke I have broken were when the RD went through them. Those 340's I hear were more flimsy when they weighed 340g now they are 385g and I hear better things, plus mine actually came in at closer to 400g which is on par with other Alu rims. I got the rims for $30. I am not a clydes and these are going to be built specifiacally for an uphill TT and/or my wife who is 125# and maybe puts out that many watts.

  18. #43
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    Ok does this look right now? NDS seems to not change between the 24 vs 32 spoke count.

    Same length spokes?

    Help with lacing 16:8 wheel-screen-shot-2018-04-12-1.20.07-pm.png

  19. #44
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    I would have thought that there would be a difference between 2x DS and radial NDS spoke lengths but maybe the extra length of a NDS spoke (due to the flange spacing from the hub centerline) evens out the crossed length of a DS spoke.

    I have one radial NDS wheel in my collection. It's specs (I keep records!!)

    18/9 spoking (DS to NDS).
    3x DS, radial NDS.

    Calculated lengths (Roger's calculator) inputting 36 DS spokes and radial NDS (spoke numbers don't matter with radial spoking)
    DS - 281
    NDS - 275.

    I'll assume (without running the calculator again) that the 3x added the extra 6mm over and above your equal measurements.

    I can't see that you inputted anything incorrectly. Go for it but keep notes! I print out Roger's wheel worksheets and file them away with copious notes written all over them.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourrealdad View Post
    Ok does this look right now? NDS seems to not change between the 24 vs 32 spoke count.

    Same length spokes?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    They wouldn't, since they are radial. You can do 100 spokes; if it's radial, they will all be the same length. The problem with crossed spokes is the spacing of the spoke holes on the flange; more spokes, closer distances. Putting in 24 spokes assumes 12 on each side. With 2-crossing involved, this would be a longer distance to the flange hole, which is why your spokes are too long.
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  21. #46
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    I had to check my McD's napkin calculation so I plugged everything into Spocalc again

    Radial NDS is 279mm, 2X triplet DS is 281mm, and 3X triplet DS is 290mm (290.4mm rounded down, so napkincalc was 0.4mm off)

    Spoke tension left will be 89% of spoke tension right, assuming NDS heads out.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mackers View Post
    I had to check my McD's napkin calculation so I plugged everything into Spocalc again

    Radial NDS is 279mm, 2X triplet DS is 281mm, and 3X triplet DS is 290mm (290.4mm rounded down, so napkincalc was 0.4mm off)

    Spoke tension left will be 89% of spoke tension right, assuming NDS heads out.
    Um, why is yours different than mine?

    Also how can the calculator account for the weird placing of the spokes, again unless I laced it wrong I have two DS spokes next to each other followed by a NDS then two more DS and then a NDS and so on. So it is not the usual DS, NDS, DS, NDS, DS, NDS pattern.

    Won't that affect length?
    Last edited by yourrealdad; 04-12-2018 at 05:06 PM.

  23. #48
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    It certainly will, which is why the Musson calculator is pretty much useless for calculating spoke lengths for triplet laced wheels and why I recommended Spocalc.

    To account for the spoke placing you HAVE to use the 2,25 cross or the 3,31 cross for 2X and 3X respectively or you will end up with short spokes.

    There are other tricks, f.e. 3X triplet spoke length is virtually the same as 48 spokes 5X (subtract 0.1mm) but the Musson calculator can't do that one either.
    Last edited by Mackers; 04-12-2018 at 09:56 PM.

  24. #49
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    First of all, you should lace 3X on the drive side. On the NDS use radial for rim brakes and 1X for disc brakes.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Just use Roger Musson's Wheelpro spoke calculator and be done with it. It's as easy as pie. I just plain works and if it didn't, Roger would fix it because he wrote it. It has Help built into it and he's available for questions about its use as are some of us who use it.
    As has been pointed out, the Wheelpro calculator cannot be used for 2:1 lacing.

    When writing it, I did originally have some 2:1 code but then removed it, because if I remember when doing the analysis there are two options for the crossed side, and the amount of code was getting silly for a lacing pattern I've never built of evaluated, and since hub and rim manufacturers seem to be no longer supporting the pattern, I removed 2:1 from the calculator.

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