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  1. #1
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    Help me choose a deep rim wheelset. .... please!

    Easton versus Mavic versus Fast Forward versus Vision .

    So I want to invest in a pair of fast wheels for a couple of long distance road cycling marathon efforts I have this year. Nothing too crazy, maybe 500 to 700 kilometres non stop, on roads with not a huge amount of elevation gain. I would expect to be averaging around 24-28 kilometres an hour, but I'm not too sure on that at this stage... possibly a bit higher. My aim will be getting the best time I can.

    I already have an aero bike, I just need to change the wheels.

    The Easton EC90 Aero 55 carbon wheelset. I was recommended this by a friend who works in a bike shop, he said they are the business these days. I like them but wanted to see what other options there are for slightly cheaper. So he also recommended the following;

    Mavic Cosmic Pro carbon Exalith and Pro carbon SL.

    Vision Metron 55 SL.

    Fast Forward F4R carbon.

    I realise these are all slightly different price points, but is there any major differences that I should be aware of between the brands, apart from the price and weight? Is it largely down to which ones I like the look of the most?

    Cheers and thanks.

  2. #2
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    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

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  3. #3
    Adorable Furry Hombre
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    Which of those wheels can you get parts for, e.g. pawls or spokes or bearings etc, locally the same day you need them?

    I ask because the answer is probably none, resulting in a grinding halt to your marathoning

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Which of those wheels can you get parts for, e.g. pawls or spokes or bearings etc, locally the same day you need them?

    I ask because the answer is probably none, resulting in a grinding halt to your marathoning
    This is something worth considering. If you want something serviceable, you will have to go with a custom build.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  5. #5
    changingleaf
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    I recommend a set of custom built wheels with Boyd 60mm carbon rims and DT Swiss 350 hubs.

  6. #6
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    I will take those points into consideration, but I would like opinions on those wheels I mentioned if people here have them. I know different rims perform differently in crosswinds etc.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damitletsride! View Post
    I will take those points into consideration, but I would like opinions on those wheels I mentioned if people here have them. I know different rims perform differently in crosswinds etc.
    It's not hard to figure out. The deeper the rim, the poorer it will perform in crosswinds.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  8. #8
    Boyd Cycling owner
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    It's not hard to figure out. The deeper the rim, the poorer it will perform in crosswinds.
    It depends a lot on the rim shape, and the size of tire you are using. For example a 23mm tire will handle a lot better in heavy crosswinds compared to a 28mm tire. This is because on the back side of the rim the air would flow over the rim and over the tire a lot better with a 23mm compared to a 28mm. A 28mm tire would have more of a lightbulb shape on the rim, and this will move the center of pressure on the wheel towards the rear of the wheel.

    In regards to rim shape, that is something you can plot with the CFD analysis. You can see how air flows over the tire and rim and plot where the center of pressure will be under different crosswind situations. A wheel that has poor crosswind stability will have the center of pressure behind the skewer.

    If you have ever been riding in a crosswind and you feel like you get steered into the wind, this is due to poor crosswind stability. The wind will push the back side of the rim, and steer the bike into the wind. By placing the center of pressure on the wheel over top of the skewer, you are still getting hit by the wind but it's not steering you. This is what we talk about when we say that some wheels have better crosswind stability.

    It actually becomes really tricky when trying to design around a 28mm tire and a disc brake rotor to make a deeper wheel that has good stability!
    www.boydcycling.com Handcrafted Revolution

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by coachboyd View Post
    It depends a lot on the rim shape, and the size of tire you are using. For example a 23mm tire will handle a lot better in heavy crosswinds compared to a 28mm tire. This is because on the back side of the rim the air would flow over the rim and over the tire a lot better with a 23mm compared to a 28mm. A 28mm tire would have more of a lightbulb shape on the rim, and this will move the center of pressure on the wheel towards the rear of the wheel.

    In regards to rim shape, that is something you can plot with the CFD analysis. You can see how air flows over the tire and rim and plot where the center of pressure will be under different crosswind situations. A wheel that has poor crosswind stability will have the center of pressure behind the skewer.

    If you have ever been riding in a crosswind and you feel like you get steered into the wind, this is due to poor crosswind stability. The wind will push the back side of the rim, and steer the bike into the wind. By placing the center of pressure on the wheel over top of the skewer, you are still getting hit by the wind but it's not steering you. This is what we talk about when we say that some wheels have better crosswind stability.

    It actually becomes really tricky when trying to design around a 28mm tire and a disc brake rotor to make a deeper wheel that has good stability!
    Interesting, if not difficult to believe. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I have a hard time believing that a 23mm vs. a 28mm tire will make that much of a difference for a 60mm deep section rim. Do you have first hand experience riding in both of these scenarios?
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  10. #10
    Boyd Cycling owner
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    I have first hand experience, wind tunnel testing, and what the CFD software says.

    My first hand experience (and also what we use with different athletes) is that if you are doing a tri on a windy day, putting a narrower tire up front will have a pretty big effect on how the bike handles.

    The wind tunnel can show the center of pressure reports, and you can also look at side load forces.
    www.boydcycling.com Handcrafted Revolution

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Interesting, if not difficult to believe.
    I don't get why this is difficult to believe. Saying that depth and handling are linearly locked is no different than saying that depth and speed are linearly locked, and we know that's false and it's been proven a zillion times.

    Furthermore, the tire represents a significant part of the system's flying shape. How would changing a significant part of the system's flying shape NOT impact how the system performs, both speed and handling?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    I don't get why this is difficult to believe. Saying that depth and handling are linearly locked is no different than saying that depth and speed are linearly locked, and we know that's false and it's been proven a zillion times.

    Furthermore, the tire represents a significant part of the system's flying shape. How would changing a significant part of the system's flying shape NOT impact how the system performs, both speed and handling?
    OK, understood. However, I certainly wouldn't want to be the one with 60mm deep rims when an 18-wheeler is flying by me at 60mph.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  13. #13
    Is it the future yet?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Which of those wheels can you get parts for, e.g. pawls or spokes or bearings etc, locally the same day you need them?

    I ask because the answer is probably none, resulting in a grinding halt to your marathoning

    I disagree, unless you buy custom local, and good luck if it's a Sat. He's probably out riding. If he buys these wheels from his local shop, they probably are a dealer and thus might have parts. If not, most reputable shops will have a loaner wheelset available.

    You buy a custom wheelset from some guy not local and you are SOL getting any warranty work done. You'll have to box the wheel up and ship it back and wait til he gets around to it. Or, you'll have to take that wheel in to a shop, they'll charge you for parts, assuming they have them, and fix it hopefully the way that custom builder had it.
    Also remember, custom guys just assemble wheels from parts that someone else designs and makes. You don't get to test ride them, you'll have to take their word on how they'll ride. One man's "comfortable", is another man's "way too stiff" etc...

    I had a pair of Ksyrium SL's when I first started riding. I bent a spoke. Called my local shop, they asked, "what year, front or back, which side." I told them and they said "Come on down we'll get you fixed up." $15 later the spoke was in and wheel trued.

    A guy in the club had a pair of wheels built by a local shop that only builds wheels. Very reputable here in Portland. $2,000.00 for his set. He had to take them back twice because they kept going out of true and noises. Both times he waited for over a week. No loaner wheels. Thankfully he had a back up pair.


    Just saying....

  14. #14
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    I have wheels from both boyd and november.

    All built with normal j bend spokes.

    Haven't had to touch up/retrue anything.

    I would buy from either one again and recommend both.

    I would not buy anything with proprietary spokes and/or cheapness as a selling feature.

    If cheap is the main concern, save more money and get a nice set of alloy wheels from boyd or november. Then run them with fast tires (e.g., conti 4k) and latex tubes.

    Or try running you old wheels with fast tubes and tires (fast = relatively lower rolling resistance).

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    It's not hard to figure out. The deeper the rim, the poorer it will perform in crosswinds.
    Not so .. that's not the case at all - from what I've heard speaking to experts in the field, friends, and other racers.

    There's a lot more to it than the depth. Taller rim does not necessarily mean worse in cross winds. If you take two wheelsets with a 40mm rim, the profile and shape of the rim has a huge impact on how the wind flows over and around it. Rounder profiles generally perform better than pointy or sharper profiles. All the small details that get tested in wind tunnels make a difference. Do you think Zipp just ask for the factory to build them wheels with 'X' rim depth? No...

  16. #16
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    The Mavic Pro Carbon SL is my front runner at the moment.

  17. #17
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    So are you set on getting a full carbon deep/semi-deep dish wheelset then? If so I'm assuming Zipp, Enve, Reynolds, etc are out due to cost.

    What about HED or Flo offerings with an aluminum rim with a non-structural carbon fairing? Or Flo offers full carbon clinchers too in 60mm or 90mm depths. HED does have full carbon offerings but are only tubulars.

    I personally like HED wheels (part of it is their HQ is local to me) but they are solid performers. Plus their deep dish wheels are built with regular bladed spokes (I believe they are Sapim CX-Ray) so if something happens you don't need a special proprietary spoke to fix them in a pinch. For a road bike (even aero) I'd personally go with the their Jet 4 (carbon fairing, 46mm depth) or Stinger 5 (full carbon, 50mm depth) that are around 45mm wheel depth. Deep but not too deep for normal daily riding.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by loxx0050 View Post

    I personally like HED wheels (part of it is their HQ is local to me) but they are solid performers. Plus their deep section wheels are built with regular bladed spokes (I believe they are Sapim CX-Ray) so if something happens you don't need a special proprietary spoke to fix them in a pinch. For a road bike (even aero) I'd personally go with the their Jet 4 (carbon fairing, 46mm depth) or Stinger 5 (full carbon, 50mm depth) that are around 45mm wheel depth. Deep but not too deep for normal daily riding.
    Fixed. Deep dish is pizza. Deep section are wheels.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Fixed. Deep dish is pizza. Deep section are wheels.
    You got me there. I'm hopped up on cold meds so I didn't even think about that.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by loxx0050 View Post
    You got me there. I'm hopped up on cold meds so I didn't even think about that.
    No problem. Just so you know. It's an error many here make.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  21. #21
    A wheelist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    It's an error many here make.
    I like it. Everytime someone mentions it I reach for the phone and order a party sized Delux.
    .
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilders with motivation, information and resources.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    I like it. Everytime someone mentions it I reach for the phone and order a party sized Delux.
    Sorry, I prefer Neapolitan, but that's just me.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  23. #23
    Cpark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damitletsride! View Post
    Easton versus Mavic versus Fast Forward versus Vision .

    So I want to invest in a pair of fast wheels for a couple of long distance road cycling marathon efforts I have this year. Nothing too crazy, maybe 500 to 700 kilometres non stop, on roads with not a huge amount of elevation gain. I would expect to be averaging around 24-28 kilometres an hour, but I'm not too sure on that at this stage... possibly a bit higher. My aim will be getting the best time I can.

    I already have an aero bike, I just need to change the wheels.

    The Easton EC90 Aero 55 carbon wheelset. I was recommended this by a friend who works in a bike shop, he said they are the business these days. I like them but wanted to see what other options there are for slightly cheaper. So he also recommended the following;

    Mavic Cosmic Pro carbon Exalith and Pro carbon SL.

    Vision Metron 55 SL.

    Fast Forward F4R carbon.

    I realise these are all slightly different price points, but is there any major differences that I should be aware of between the brands, apart from the price and weight? Is it largely down to which ones I like the look of the most?

    I had pretty good experience with Nox rims.
    I would recommend a 36R (27.5mm external width/20.5 internal width) on the front and a 55R (28mm/18mm) on the rear.


    Cheers and thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damitletsride! View Post
    Easton versus Mavic versus Fast Forward versus Vision .

    So I want to invest in a pair of fast wheels for a couple of long distance road cycling marathon efforts I have this year. Nothing too crazy, maybe 500 to 700 kilometres non stop, on roads with not a huge amount of elevation gain. I would expect to be averaging around 24-28 kilometres an hour, but I'm not too sure on that at this stage... possibly a bit higher. My aim will be getting the best time I can.

    I already have an aero bike, I just need to change the wheels.

    The Easton EC90 Aero 55 carbon wheelset. I was recommended this by a friend who works in a bike shop, he said they are the business these days. I like them but wanted to see what other options there are for slightly cheaper. So he also recommended the following;

    Mavic Cosmic Pro carbon Exalith and Pro carbon SL.

    Vision Metron 55 SL.

    Fast Forward F4R carbon.

    I realise these are all slightly different price points, but is there any major differences that I should be aware of between the brands, apart from the price and weight? Is it largely down to which ones I like the look of the most?


    Cheers and thanks.
    I had pretty good experience with Nox rims.
    I would recommend a R36 (27.5mm ext width/20.5 int width) on the front and a R55 (28mm ext width/18mm int width) on the rear.

  24. #24
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    Hi critboy,

    Have questions for ya about your wheels from Boyd & NovemberDave. This is what I've decided to do instead of my build my own again (via Brandon & his Bikehubstore.com).

    Can I ask, which Boyd carbon rims?? Or did you mean you had the ALUs?

    Also, what hubs did you go with? Spoke count? Could I ask your weight too?

    Same questions about the ones (carbon) from NovDave??


    Thanks for any feedback. Trying to listen to others and their experiences & hopefully make a more informed choice. I've always been an ALU rim kind of guy (all the last builds I did were with Ultegra Hubs & H-Plus-Son rims and I stuck to 28H/32H. Since I am 185-190 during racing/summer season, am wondering if I could (when I go to carbon with some rim depth, say, around 50mm or more) if I could go to 24H/28H rim/wheels, and still have them last me when I go out for hard training rides here (live in Belgium, southern part, where the infamous roads are, and we all avoid them as much as possible, contrary to what anyone who doesn't live here thinks, lol).

    The Ultegra/HPlus/32H F&R have been bombproof for me for years, one set I built I haven't had to touch in over 2 years. But I am finally, after all these years, getting the carbon itch.

    Thanks again.

  25. #25
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    This thread is interesting to read:

    ..since I live here in Belgium, race kermesses around here and up in the Netherlands, I often wonder about what people actually mean when they say they "have experience" with crosswinds. Since my sis lives in Greer, SC, near Boyd, 3-4 weeks a year I spend time riding/training there (along with out SWest). Even on the so-called most windy days I've heard some say that day is in Greer, to me that day it is like a gentle breeze compared to what I've endured along the Belgium/Netherlands coast.

    When the winds come here at home, on either riding/training/racing days, nearly all guys take off their front deep rim wheels & replace with a 25mm and/or under rim depth wheel. Rubber still stays 25mm or 28mm. And even then, 25mm rim depth makes ya feel like you are going to, which will happen if you aren't vigilant, get slammed to the ground when you come through the paceline and/or echelon.....pizza or no pizza......

    So, 23mm or 28mm tire or not, here I'd have to be standing or squatting on the front axle of Boyd's 50-80mm wheels while gripping 5 large pizzas in each hand just to stay upright some days... But, meh, when the winds are only, say, sub-40 kmph (25mph), that's like gentle breeze dove-flapping their wings stuff. And those deep carbon f&r wheel guys during these gentle days are coming through like nothing's wrong.....though we have watched a few mysteriously disappear over the years when a gull flew by, backwards & sideways

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