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  1. #1
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    How many spokes?

    Looking to build a strong training wheel set. thinking of kinlin 23mm rims and hope pro 3 hubs. i am 80kg, 6ft. i am thinking 24/28, 28/28 or 28/32. Will 32 be overkill? I like to lace them 2x both sides. Aim is to keep it 1500 - 1600grams.

  2. #2
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    Your 80 kg equals 176lbs which I am in winter (170 in summer) and I have two training wheelsets -

    Fall/winter/spring - 32/32.
    Summer 24/28.

    They work perfectly with those spoke numbers and give me great peace of mind for training wheels. A few extra spokes don't slow me down - not relative to my light summer wheels anyway. I'm just as fast (or slow ) with either set. After all, a spoke only weighs about 7g.

    Your criteria were "strong" and "training" so I would suggest going no less that those spoke numbers. I hope no-one comes along with "You can probably get away with XXX" (x being a low number of spokes) as I just don't see the point of "probably" getting away with anything, except sheer reliability, with training wheels. But that's me.
    Last edited by Mike T.; 04-10-2013 at 09:40 AM.
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  3. #3
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    I like to build training wheels with 28F/32R for someone your size, so that when a spoke eventually breaks, you can ride home rather than walk or call for a ride. With Kinlin XR-280 and Hope Pro 3, you're looking at a weight of about 1,713g.

    Quote Originally Posted by s4one View Post
    Looking to build a strong training wheel set. thinking of kinlin 23mm rims and hope pro 3 hubs. i am 80kg, 6ft. i am thinking 24/28, 28/28 or 28/32. Will 32 be overkill? I like to lace them 2x both sides. Aim is to keep it 1500 - 1600grams.
    Last edited by 4slomo; 04-10-2013 at 09:59 AM.
    Hey everybody, ride my wheels! They ride good, real good.
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  4. #4
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    I would say go 24/28. If the wheelset is stress relieved and tensioned properly, that spoke count would be just fine for you.

    Keep in mind there will be no noticeable difference between a 24/28 and 32/32.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Cyclery View Post
    I would say go 24/28. If the wheelset is stress relieved and tensioned properly, that spoke count would be just fine for you.

    Keep in mind there will be no noticeable difference between a 24/28 and 32/32.
    This is exactly what I am thinking. There must be a limit of stiffness at some point where an average Joe like me cannot feel any more stiffness or beyond.

    I originally thought 32/32 will be my choice since it's a win win. I plan on lacing 2x front and 3x drive side and 2x non drive side rear. alloy 12mm nipples with sapim laser spokes. By the way, im targeting the Kinlin 23mm rims. If the lacing and wheel building is proper and the 24/28 will provide a sufficient amount of stiffness, than this will be good. I currently ride 2012 FC 404 tubulars, damn they flex and went out of true twice already, ridden it under 1000 miles, 16/20... many are radial laced.

    However I ride many rough roads and a lot mountains so when I descend and hit potholes or other objects i can feel when the rim shifts and hits my rear brake.
    Last edited by s4one; 04-11-2013 at 08:02 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4slomo View Post
    I like to build training wheels with 28F/32R for someone your size, so that when a spoke eventually breaks, you can ride home rather than walk or call for a ride.
    If you bring a spoke wrench along (which is a good idea in any case... ie denting a rim or whatever), then in the very rare event that a spoke breaks you will be able to get home, no problem.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by s4one View Post
    I originally thought 32/32 will be my choice since it's a win win. I plan on lacing 2x front and 3x drive side and 2x non drive side rear. alloy 12mm nipples with sapim laser spokes. By the way, im targeting the Kinlin 23mm rims. If the lacing and wheel building is proper and the 24/28 will provide a sufficient amount of stiffness, than this will be good.
    24f and 28r is plenty. I wished they made a 16h so I could do 16f and 20r... and I weigh the same as you. Use Sapim Race on the DS. Mark the spokes for windup.

    I currently ride 2012 FC 404 tubulars, damn they flex and went out of true twice already, ridden it under 1000 miles, 16/20... many are radial laced.
    Curious... which spokes came loose?

    IMO Zipp hubs are poorly designed if you apply high torque in a low gear... don't know if you experienced any issues then.

  8. #8
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    Actually, none of the spokes came loose on the Zipp's the rear wheel will go really out of true and rub on the brakes. I got them trued once already.

    Will 28/28 have a big difference on 24/28? I plan on 2x front and 2x ND/3x DS rear. If I go 24/28 would Sapim laser spokes be sufficient opposed to Sapim race spokes? Those races spokes are a lot heavier.

    Front wheels don't take as much abuse compared to rear correct? So will the four extra spokes on the front 24/28 even make a difference?

    This is what I want: 24/28, Sapim laser spokes 2x front 2xND/3xDS Hope pro 3 hubs with kinlin 23mm rims.

    I was even thinking Sapim race spokes 3x DS and Sapim laser spokes 2x ND. Is this unnecessary?

    I think for my 80kg, it should be stiff enough since i will be cross lacing?

    Just want to make sure before I pull the trigger.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by s4one View Post
    This is what I want: 24/28, Sapim laser spokes 2x front 2xND/3xDS Hope pro 3 hubs with kinlin 23mm rims.

    I was even thinking Sapim race spokes 3x DS and Sapim laser spokes 2x ND. Is this unnecessary?
    I'd advise using Race on the DS. You'll have trouble getting sufficient tension with Lasers.

    If you don't know how to build wheels, take a look at Mike T's site and anything else you can get your hands on. Take your time and do it right.

  10. #10
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    Thanks for the input, after some browsing on the web. I decided to skip the Sapim Laser spokes and opt for CX-RAYS for their stiffness. Although same material, i read that the CX-Rays stiffness is far superior to the Lasers. Is this correct? If this is the case, will CX-rays nd/ds be sufficient? Of with cx-rays, i should still use sapim race spokes on the rear drive side?

    Thanks

  11. #11
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    +1 what rruff stated.
    I am similar weight to you and use 24/28 spoke count.
    For rear: DS Sapim Race x2, NDS Sapim CX-Ray x2
    For front: Sapim CX-Ray Radial (x2 should be fine)

  12. #12
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    Awesome, im pretty set.

    Will the aero (bladed) spoke paired with the butted round sapim spoke cause any negative affect?

    Regarding the front wheel, 2x up front will provide more stiffness right?

    I'm thinking of using Sapim Race for rear 2xDS/2xND and Sapim Laser 2x front. I read on Mike T's website that the Lasers were not created for front wheel use as you cant get sufficient tension out of them. For the front, if the stiffness of the cx-ray and lasers are no different i may just go lasers up front 24h. Or just go all out Sapim Race spokes front and back.

    Mike T also mentioned that the front does not require so much strength. So may be Race for the rear and lasers for the front.

    "The lighter DT revolution and Laser are suited to be used in front wheels, where there is virtually no torsional load, as the transmission acts on the rear wheel only."

    Thanks
    Last edited by s4one; 04-12-2013 at 12:34 AM.

  13. #13
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    About lacing patterns: White Mountain Wheels - Handbuilt Custom Bicycle Wheels - Made in Alto, NM

    Front wheels don't need to transfer torque, which is why radial lacing is ok. Cross lacing does not improve stiffness.

    CX-Rays are not stiffer than Lasers. Lasers should be fine on the front wheel. 100kg there is plenty. But if you can afford CX-Rays, they are aero, and it's easier to prevent wind-up.

    The lacing pattern is not that big of a deal... just don't do something stupid. The important parts of the build will be stress relieving and even tension.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rruff View Post
    About lacing patterns: White Mountain Wheels - Handbuilt Custom Bicycle Wheels - Made in Alto, NM

    Front wheels don't need to transfer torque, which is why radial lacing is ok. Cross lacing does not improve stiffness.

    CX-Rays are not stiffer than Lasers. Lasers should be fine on the front wheel. 100kg there is plenty. But if you can afford CX-Rays, they are aero, and it's easier to prevent wind-up.

    The lacing pattern is not that big of a deal... just don't do something stupid. The important parts of the build will be stress relieving and even tension.
    Thanks a lot, actually I will have a builder build the wheel. Thanks

  15. #15
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    I'm 195 and I ride 20/28's every day. No problems.

  16. #16
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    I pulled the trigger and bought the hubs as the first step online. I ended up going 28/32 since it appears that Hope pro 3 hubs are not available in 24h front (or its rare and hard to find)?

    I calculated the 28/32 and the weight isn't much higher when I use mostly Laser spokes and only sapim race for rear DS. I'd rather go stiffer/stronger than lighter. At least i know the 28/32 will leave me with little chance of regret opposed to going with a lesser spoke count.

  17. #17
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    There will be no real world difference between Cxrays and Lasers. The one big advantage of the Cxrays is windup. I know your not going to build these wheels, but if you were the Cxrays would be easy to monitor windup with, and prevent for that matter. Where as Lasers and Races are going to wind up no matter what, making the incorporation of windup into the tensioning process absolutely pivotal.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Cyclery View Post
    There will be no real world difference between Cxrays and Lasers. The one big advantage of the Cxrays is windup. I know your not going to build these wheels, but if you were the Cxrays would be easy to monitor windup with, and prevent for that matter. Where as Lasers and Races are going to wind up no matter what, making the incorporation of windup into the tensioning process absolutely pivotal.
    Thanks for your reply, I can still decide on the spokes and nipples. I will purchase those from the builder (LBS). I had second thoughts about mixing bladed cx-rays with the rear rounded Race spokes so I decided to go round spokes all around and go with Lasers. Now that I ended up with 28/32 due to the nonavailability of 24h front Pro 3 hub. I'm confident that stiffness wont be lacking. I may even go 2xND/3xDS with the 32h rear hub.

    Thanks

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rruff View Post
    If you bring a spoke wrench along (which is a good idea in any case... ie denting a rim or whatever), then in the very rare event that a spoke breaks you will be able to get home, no problem.
    While I don't disagree that carrying a spoke wrench is a good idea. If the idea is to to save on weight (less spokes), what is the gain if you carry a decent spoke wrench? Not to mention some folks struggle with just cleaning a bike, let alone truing a wheel on the side of the road.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by rruff View Post
    Front wheels don't need to transfer torque, which is why radial lacing is ok. Cross lacing does not improve stiffness.
    We should mention the benefit of cross lacing patterns.
    Spoke loads are transferred to the hub flange where they can take more load. While most of today's hubs are good with radial patterns, the same hub will be stronger/longevity with a cross lace. It comes down to what your margin is for replacing things - keep in mind I have some 30 year old campy hubs still in use
    I do have radial pattern wheels as well.

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