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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    I've built them both ways too and there was no difference in performance that I ever found but you have to build them one way or the other and it just makes sense to me to have the final cross being pulled inwards rather than outwards - however small this may be.
    My bikes are all Campy 10 and 11-speed and because the RD can be very close to the spokes when in the big cog this aspect is particularly important.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
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    There's sometimes a buggy.
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    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
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  2. #27
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    If you are more visual, may I suggest Bill Mould's "Master Wheel Bulding I":

    Master Wheel Building – I – Bill Mould Wheels

    However, I still recommend getting Roger Musson's e-book and following his directions to the letter. As i mentioned before, it's only $12 which is nothing compared to what you will spend on components to build your wheels.

    And let's not forget the part you will probably spend the most time on which is truing, tensioning and.......stress relief! IMO, Mike T. explains stress relieving better than anyone. Do all 6 methods:

    Wheels
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
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    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by .je View Post
    The book instructs you to build your first set of wheels the first way, your second set of wheels the second way, and your third set of wheels all over the place over every spoke, just so you can see for yourself that all options work equally well. It says that.
    The first set of wheels I built was with the pulling spokes crossing to the inside of the non pulling. Seemed to work just fine till faced with some really tough climbs. Then I heard the spokes touching the derailleur cage during each stroke. I now always build with the pulling spokes crossing to the outside which then pulls the spokes away from the cage. There is no reason not to do it this way and clear reasons why it is superior no matter who might say otherwise.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turner View Post
    The first set of wheels I built was with the pulling spokes crossing to the inside of the non pulling. Seemed to work just fine till faced with some really tough climbs. Then I heard the spokes touching the derailleur cage during each stroke. I now always build with the pulling spokes crossing to the outside which then pulls the spokes away from the cage. There is no reason not to do it this way and clear reasons why it is superior no matter who might say otherwise.
    If this is really an issue with your wheels, I'm pretty sure you don't have enough tension.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  5. #30
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    On modern bikes this is probably the case...not enough tension. Or a bent hanger. That said I agree that this is the 'right way' to build wheels.
    I work for some bike racers
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    and a bunch of skateboards

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    If this is really an issue with your wheels, I'm pretty sure you don't have enough tension.
    No, that's not it. Definitely enough tension. Done with a tension gauge. It's just simple physics. The spokes under load straighten and those whose load is lessened relax. It is measurable. There is a good article on it but I can't find it right now.

    It was a seven speed wheel with 126mm spacing so maybe that setup had the cage particularly close to the wheel. In any event, it can happen for probably a number of reasons. Building the wheel so the spokes move away from the derailleur, if at all, just seems prudent.

  7. #32
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    I have two bikes that would touch the derailleur when climbing - but it isn't the fault of the wheel build or tenstion - wheels do flex. They were just old derailleurs that weren't designed with the minimal clearances of 8 speed in mind. I installed a spacer under the cassette which fixed the problem.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  8. #33
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    It would be interesting to see which way it was built.

  9. #34
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    There's also more than one kind of load. When you're climbing out of the saddle pulling spokes matter, but lateral flex from leaning the bike is going to make the spokes flex even if you aren't under power.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  10. #35
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Very true. The wheels do flex more laterally when leaning the bike.
    I work for some bike racers
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    and a bunch of skateboards

  11. #36
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    My experience had nothing to do with the flex you notice when leaning the bike or when climbing out of the saddle. I climb mainly seated and the rubbing of spokes on the derailleur I noted was when seated.

  12. #37
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turner View Post
    My experience had nothing to do with the flex you notice when leaning the bike or when climbing out of the saddle. I climb mainly seated and the rubbing of spokes on the derailleur I noted was when seated.
    When seated?!? I'd have to go with low tension. Unless you ride like a monkey f'in a football that's pretty weird.
    I work for some bike racers
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Unless you ride like a monkey f'in a football that's pretty weird.
    We had a guy that used to ride with us that I named "Teasel A$$" as he rode like he was sitting on a bunch of teasels.
    .
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder's with motivation, information and resources.

    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  14. #39
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    We had a guy that used to ride with us that I named "Teasel A$$" as he rode like he was sitting on a bunch of teasels.
    Ouch...
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turner View Post
    My experience had nothing to do with the flex you notice when leaning the bike or when climbing out of the saddle. I climb mainly seated and the rubbing of spokes on the derailleur I noted was when seated.
    The only place spokes flex is at the bottom of the wheel, were the derailleur is. They can flex from torque, or lateral forces - or simply the weight of the rider. But you'd have to have virtually no clearance for such small amounts of flex to get the cage to rub.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    When seated?!? I'd have to go with low tension. Unless you ride like a monkey f'in a football that's pretty weird.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    The only place spokes flex is at the bottom of the wheel, were the derailleur is. They can flex from torque, or lateral forces - or simply the weight of the rider. But you'd have to have virtually no clearance for such small amounts of flex to get the cage to rub.
    You know nothing about my size, strength, number of spokes in said wheels, or the particular grades I was climbing nor just how close the cage was to the spokes.

    I suggest you guys have a look at this article before making such pronouncements.

    http://www.williamscycling.com/asset...e%20Lacing.pdf

    I found it quite illuminating despite having Jobst Brandt's excellent book and having studied many other very good wheel building texts. Hope you all find something useful there.

    I'm always puzzled by people who are just unwilling to learn something new.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turner View Post
    You know nothing about my size, strength, number of spokes in said wheels, or the particular grades I was climbing nor just how close the cage was to the spokes.

    I suggest you guys have a look at this article before making such pronouncements.

    http://www.williamscycling.com/asset...e%20Lacing.pdf

    I found it quite illuminating despite having Jobst Brandt's excellent book and having studied many other very good wheel building texts. Hope you all find something useful there.

    I'm always puzzled by people who are just unwilling to learn something new.
    Here I thought I was agreeing with you.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turner View Post
    You know nothing about my size, strength, number of spokes in said wheels, or the particular grades I was climbing nor just how close the cage was to the spokes.

    I suggest you guys have a look at this article before making such pronouncements.

    http://www.williamscycling.com/asset...e%20Lacing.pdf

    I found it quite illuminating despite having Jobst Brandt's excellent book and having studied many other very good wheel building texts. Hope you all find something useful there.

    I'm always puzzled by people who are just unwilling to learn something new.
    And what does this have to do with the topic about drive side spokes going slack enough to hit the RD? The article propagates the myth that lacing patterns will have an effect on wheel stiffness. The only thing that will possibly change wheel stiffness is greater spoke counts - given all your wheel components are the same. If spoke tension were low enough to make the wheel feel less stiff, the wheel would not be sound. Most good quality rims can handle a tension of around 130kgF on the DS without an inflated tire. For an 11-spedd freehub, this will give you around 55kgF on the NDS, which is more than sufficient tension. On an 7-speed freehub, it is an non-issue.

    The other part of the article which is greatly suspect is in the conclusion where the writer recommends cross patterns of 2x for 20 spokes, 3x for 24 or 28 spokes and 4x for 32 spokes. Some of these cross patterns mentioned will result in crossing over spoke heads - not a good lacing practice.

    I still think you don't have enough tension in that wheel if you are hitting the RD. Are you sure your tensiometer is in calibration? Or it may be sticking and giving you a false high reading. You should compare it to other wheels if you can.
    Last edited by Lombard; 3 Weeks Ago at 07:13 AM.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  19. #44
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    Not saying this to anyone in particular, but this is a must read.

    Debunking Wheel Stiffness - Slowtwitch.com

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turner View Post
    The first set of wheels I built was with the pulling spokes crossing to the inside of the non pulling. Seemed to work just fine till faced with some really tough climbs. Then I heard the spokes touching the derailleur cage during each stroke. I now always build with the pulling spokes crossing to the outside which then pulls the spokes away from the cage. There is no reason not to do it this way and clear reasons why it is superior no matter who might say otherwise.
    I have experienced the same sort of derailleur rubbing you are describing. I've experienced it with both patterns since I've gone back and forth between the two.

    Even seated climbing will torque the bike and wheel enough for things to flex. It's not the pattern that's shifting the spokes closer that made them rub. Your wheel and frame were flexing. My bike is a Serotta Ottrott and I've had that rubbing from 24 and 32 spoke wheels. One common aspect of the wheels that tend to do this is low rim profile. Taller, stiffer rims are less likely to have this problem since the spoke angle changes (more clearance) along with wheel stiffness.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
    The only place spokes flex is at the bottom of the wheel, were the derailleur is.
    This isn't true and has been measured. See article I posted above.


  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergott View Post
    I have experienced the same sort of derailleur rubbing you are describing. I've experienced it with both patterns since I've gone back and forth between the two.

    Even seated climbing will torque the bike and wheel enough for things to flex. It's not the pattern that's shifting the spokes closer that made them rub.....
    Come on people. It is really not that difficult a concept. When you weave the outer spoke under the inner spoke the spokes bend at the crossing point. Inner spoke and outer spoke are no longer straight. Under torque load the pulling spokes tension increases and the non pulling spokes tension decreases. The result is the pulling spoke straightens and the non pulling bends more. This causes the crossing point to deflect laterally. It happens. It doesn't take super human force. You can deflect a spoke with your finger. How you arrange the spokes in the hub determines which way this deflection under load occurs. Do you want it to deflect towards your derailleur or away from it? Insert the pulling spokes from the outside of the flange if you want this deflection away from the cage. Have fun wheel builders.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergott View Post
    Not saying this to anyone in particular, but this is a must read.

    Debunking Wheel Stiffness - Slowtwitch.com


    Bingo!
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergott View Post
    This isn't true and has been measured. See article I posted above.

    Sorry, I was talking about vertical loads as the OP had said he wasn't applying lateral force. I agree that a large enough side load is going to make the rim rub the brake pad.
    Get a better saddle: www.kontactbike.com

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