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  1. #1
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    Lacing patterns clearly demonstrated??

    Is there a website that clearly shows how 2-cross wheels are laced? ie showing which spokes are ingoing and which are outgoing, which cross over which, and on what side of the wheel? I'm looking for something that will show me exactly ​how to build the wheel.

    I'm trying my hand at wheel building and I cannot find one stinking picture anywhere that shows this clearly.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    Is there a website that clearly shows how 2-cross wheels are laced? ie showing which spokes are ingoing and which are outgoing, which cross over which, and on what side of the wheel? I'm looking for something that will show me exactly ​how to build the wheel.

    I'm trying my hand at wheel building and I cannot find one stinking picture anywhere that shows this clearly.
    Roger Musson e-book is really good, and worth every penny for me, Mike T on this forum has a site that is also very good, Shelton Brown is another.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ventura Roubaix View Post
    Roger Musson e-book is really good, and worth every penny for me, Mike T on this forum has a site that is also very good, Shelton Brown is another.
    I don't show how to do actual lacing as I leave that to those who have already done it. Roger's e-book will show the OP exactly how to do the lacing and 2x is no different than 1x or 3x - it's just how many spokes do you cross before inserting the spoke into the rim - 1, 2 or 3.

    A great way (and the way I started when there was zero info on wheelbuilding) is to copy another wheel. If the wheel copied is a 3x, then cross just two spokes instead of three for 2x.
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  4. #4
    changingleaf
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    Like the others have said, 2x is done mostly the same way as 3x. The lacing begins the same way, but then when you cross the spokes your 2 crossed spoke will be 6 spoke holes away instead of 10 holes like in 3x.

    Note, there are 4 different correct ways to lace 2x (or 3x or 1x for that matter) with a j-bend hub.

    1. All pulling spokes spokes can be elbows out.
    2. All pulling spokes can be elbows in.
    3. Right side pulling spokes can be elbows out, while left side pulling spokes are elbows in.
    4. Right side pulling spoke can be elbows in, while left side pulling spokes are elbows out.

    For each case the opposite is true for the non-pulling spokes.

    The benefit of any of these options can be debated, but I prefer option 1 or 2. 1 or 2 can make the spoke lacing easier if you drop the first and second set of spokes inward, then begin your crossing with the elbows out spokes.
    Last edited by changingleaf; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:04 PM. Reason: accuracy

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by changingleaf View Post
    The benefit of any of these options can be debated, but I prefer option 1 or 2. 1 or 2 can make the spoke lacing easier if you drop the first and second set of spokes inward, then begin your crossing with the elbows out spokes.
    All things being equal, I don't know why anyone would choose elbows out for pulling.


    Waspinator,

    You honestly will not benefit from looking at a 2x wheel. Most everyone builds wheels via good procedure, not by assembling to look a certain way. If your procedure is good and you follow it, the wheel will come out looking right. The correct procedure is generally the easiest way of dealing with the complications of inserting and crossing the spokes.

    2x is just 3x without the middle cross. The spokes only touch on the last cross.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ventura Roubaix View Post
    Roger Musson e-book is really good, and worth every penny for me, Mike T on this forum has a site that is also very good, Shelton Brown is another.
    But does the book show you which spokes go over which spokes and under which spokes? That's what I'm not sure of.

  7. #7
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    I was taught elbows in for pulling spokes. However, most of the newer wheels i see are elbows out.

    Also, make sure the hub logo is under the valve hole once the hub is twisted to the right place.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    I was taught elbows in for pulling spokes. However, most of the newer wheels i see are elbows out.

    Also, make sure the hub logo is under the valve hole once the hub is twisted to the right place.
    ^This^
    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    But does the book show you which spokes go over which spokes and under which spokes? That's what I'm not sure of.
    Wait...what do you mean? It can only happen one way if you're building a 'normal' wheel. The spokes from opposite sides of the flange cross over each other at the second cross. How else would you do it?
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    I swear by the Jobst Brandt book/methods.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    But does the book show you which spokes go over which spokes and under which spokes? That's what I'm not sure of.
    Yes it explains all that, and it also tells how count holes on the hub to get the first key spoke in place, (and to have the logo facing the air valve hole, this is just for looks), and maybe to show others that you sort of know what your doing. I tried other online sites to learn how to built wheels, but Musson book helped me the most.

  11. #11
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    I laced my first two wheels at 17 using the Bicycling Maintenance book instructions. Everything, including hub logo, came out exactly spot on.

    Still have those wheels.
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  12. #12
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    Oh crap, the label on my front hubbe is all wrong, guess I have a new winter project.
    The rear somehow finished up right, TYLord.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waspinator View Post
    But does the book show you which spokes go over which spokes and under which spokes? That's what I'm not sure of.
    Think of it this way:

    Lacing 3x is over, over, under.

    Lacing 2x is over, under.

    Or in other words, all crosses are over except for the last one which is under.

    Get Roger Musson's awesome e-book and follow it to the letter:

    https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

    Only $12 and free updates! You can't go wrong.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    ...........in other words, all crosses are over except for the last one which is under.
    All other words are superfluous. Five minutes spent looking at a wheel will reveal lots.
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  15. #15
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    The Art of Wheelbuilding, by Gerd Schraner, has the step by step diagrams you are looking for. Both the DS and NDS are shown separately, beginning with the DS.

    It up to you to select the holes into which the first two spokes are placed so that you can read the labels on the body of the hub when looking through the valve stem hole of the rim. If your hubs don’t have engraving, the spacing won’t matter.
    Last edited by cdhbrad; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:22 PM.

  16. #16
    .je
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    All other words are superfluous. Five minutes spent looking at a wheel will reveal lots.
    I hope this can help, here is a picture of a 2x cross wheel I assembled after reading the Musson book.


  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by .je View Post
    I hope this can help, here is a picture of a 2x cross wheel I assembled after reading the Musson book.
    Yep that's JUST like a 3x wheel but with one less cross!
    .
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by .je View Post
    I hope this can help, here is a picture of a 2x cross wheel I assembled after reading the Musson book.

    The only issue I would have with your spoking is that, on any derailleur bike, the pulling spokes should be over the pushing spokes. Because, if you over-shoot your tallest cog and you de-chain while climbing, the chain will suddenly shoot forward very quickly, catch the outer pulling spokes, and pull the chain tightly between your cassette and the spokes. If spoked the other way, it MIGHT keep the chain from being jammed.
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    The only issue I would have with your spoking is that, on any derailleur bike, the pulling spokes should be over the pushing spokes. Because, if you over-shoot your tallest cog and you de-chain while climbing, the chain will suddenly shoot forward very quickly, catch the outer pulling spokes, and pull the chain tightly between your cassette and the spokes. If spoked the other way, it MIGHT keep the chain from being jammed.
    I always lace the pullers "heads out" and for two reasons - yours, plus the pullers at the final cross are outside of the non pullers. When torque is applied, the spokes tend to pull the final cross away from the derailer cage. Small, yes but away is better than towards.

    Hey the spokes have to be heads in our out and IMO the best way is the way that makes more sense to the builder.
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  20. #20
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    I didn't do any research yet, but..... In the last picture posted, on the far side of the hub, why do you take a spoke with the elbow in, outside the the other spoke that has the elbow out (and that one is brought in) at the cross. It seems this is just adding a bend in both spokes which I would think would be better just going straight to the rim without having that bend in it.
    I didn't need to worry on my wheel as it is straight pull spokes.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    I didn't do any research yet, but..... In the last picture posted, on the far side of the hub, why do you take a spoke with the elbow in, outside the the other spoke that has the elbow out (and that one is brought in) at the cross. It seems this is just adding a bend in both spokes which I would think would be better just going straight to the rim without having that bend in it.
    I didn't need to worry on my wheel as it is straight pull spokes.
    Good question. I often wondered about spoking a cross-spoked wheel without lacing the final cross. Oh everyone will shriek "Ya can't do that or the wheel won't be laterally stable!!!"

    But do they know that or are they just parroting anecdotal "evidence"? What's the worst that could happen? The wheel would have to be loosened off than at set of spokes would have to be "laced"? Hey at least a person would know instead of trotting out the same old stuff.
    .
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    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Good question. I often wondered about spoking a cross-spoked wheel without lacing the final cross. Oh everyone will shriek "Ya can't do that or the wheel won't be laterally stable!!!"

    But do they know that or are they just parroting anecdotal "evidence"? What's the worst that could happen? The wheel would have to be loosened off than at set of spokes would have to be "laced"? Hey at least a person would know instead of trotting out the same old stuff.
    There's no reason to believe it would be "unstable". If anything you are just giving up a small source of toughness in the structure since the crosses distribute and decrease peak stresses.
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  23. #23
    .je
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    I always lace the pullers "heads out" and for two reasons - yours, plus the pullers at the final cross are outside of the non pullers. When torque is applied, the spokes tend to pull the final cross away from the derailer cage. Small, yes but away is better than towards.

    Hey the spokes have to be heads in our out and IMO the best way is the way that makes more sense to the builder.
    I just followed the advice in the Musson book. It does state, on p.29 of the latest Revision 7, in bold:
    When building a wheel you can choose whether to place the pulling spokes on the inside of the hub flange or the outside.

    There isn't a preferred option and consequently you will see all options work equally well.
    The book instructs you to build your first set of wheels the first way, your second set of wheels the second way, and your third set of wheels all over the place over every spoke, just so you can see for yourself that all options work equally well. It says that.

    I had some time ago a department-store bike built in the late 70s that didn't cross at all, and for sure they were not as axially stiff as wheels that did have the crossing, and subsequent bracing, and loads shared between spokes. I re-spoked it with the crossings, it was much stronger and stiffer in all directions.

    To summarize, if you don't want to buy the Musson book, and don't want to directly ask that someone send you theirs, go to the Sheldon Brown website. It is nearly as good for instruction, but has fewer pictures and less explanation for why things are done as they are. If you're building a 28 spoke wheel, just:

    Substitute "28" where the instructions say "36"
    Substitute "14" where the instructions say "18"
    Substitute "7" where the instructions say "9"
    Substitute "6" where the instructions say "8"

    There are youtube videos that can help you too. If you want more, and the above picture isn't enough, well, use Google or something.
    Last edited by .je; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:34 AM.

  24. #24
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    What does "equally well" mean? That after you build your wheels in different way and put 20,000 miles on all of them, you will have exactly the same number of broken spokes on each?

    The relative benefits of these spoke arrangements are only going to show up after considerable mileage and stress.

    Given the fact that we build wheels for ourselves and it is a custom product, it makes sense to use whatever is the best practices known - even if there isn't readily available statistical proof of concept. A century of handed down experience has to be worth something.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by .je View Post
    The book instructs you to build your first set of wheels the first way, your second set of wheels the second way, and your third set of wheels all over the place over every spoke, just so you can see for yourself that all options work equally well. It says that.
    I've built them both ways too and there was no difference in performance that I ever found but you have to build them one way or the other and it just makes sense to me to have the final cross being pulled inwards rather than outwards - however small this may be.
    .
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