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  1. #26
    pmf
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulwp38 View Post
    Yes. Local riders have become a bit disenchanted with the Pro 3's and have switched to Conti 4000. We find we get a lot of 'glass' punctures with the Pro 3's.

    I'm impressed by the Vittoria but to be fair it's double the price. We're probably not alone in only buying the tyres when discounted. I may be a bit of a cycling nut, but not enough to pay $250 for two tyres.
    For $250, you could get eight Pro 3 tires. They're up on sale at around $30/tire on several websites. So what if they only last half as long as the Vittoria's.

  2. #27
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    Also, once again, you are talking about Pro 3's, not Pro 4's.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightfend View Post
    Also, once again, you are talking about Pro 3's, not Pro 4's.
    +1

    The 4's seem to have improved significantly on the puncture durability of the 3's. Still fairly early days, but so far seems to be on par with the GP's.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightfend View Post
    Also, once again, you are talking about Pro 3's, not Pro 4's.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mdrnizd View Post
    I know the Michelin tire is new out, but what is everyone's thoughts on these two tires? I will be training and racing on these tires.
    The Michelin Pro 4 (23) will demand ~ 10 watts more power than the CX 23 at 25 mph. Rolling resistance scales with speed, i.e. the difference will be ~ 8 watts at 20 mph.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightfend View Post
    The truth of the matter is most of the people on this thread have NEVER ridden Pro 4's, and are just basing their experience on older Michelin tires.

    I love the "Conti's wear better" quotes. These are always automatic responses by GP4000 users, even if they have no experience with the other brand of tire they are comparing.
    Its too bad for your theory that most of us have ridden both Michelins and Contis off and on for years. The 4's are very unlikely to depart from Miche's usual stick and soft but not wearing well design.
    Last edited by darwinosx; 02-03-2012 at 05:39 PM.

  7. #32
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    I hate to add another tire to the mix, but the veloflex tires are very similar to the vittoria cx. I have been using veloflex master tires (700x22) for the last few years after giving up on the vittorias. I heard that they are produced by the the original vittoria employees in italy. What i like about them as that they ride the same as vittorias (320 TPI), but last almost twice as long and cost about the same.

  8. #33
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    I recommend Schwalbe Ultremo R.1 front and Ultremo ZX rear. I have tried them ALL and the Schwalbe smokes them in weight, traction, durability and rolling resistance departments....

    I tried;
    -Michelin ProRace 3/4
    -Continental GP4000s
    -Gommitalia Targa K
    -Vittoria Open Corsa EVO CX
    -Vredestein Fortezza Tricomp
    -Bontrager Race Lite
    -Deda Tre HST
    2007 Cannondale SystemSix1 - Full Dura Ace; Campagnolo Shamal Ultra SOLD

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachariah View Post
    I recommend Schwalbe Ultremo R.1 front and Ultremo ZX rear. I have tried them ALL and the Schwalbe smokes them in weight, traction, durability and rolling resistance departments....

    I tried;
    -Michelin ProRace 3/4
    -Continental GP4000s
    -Gommitalia Targa K
    -Vittoria Open Corsa EVO CX
    -Vredestein Fortezza Tricomp
    -Bontrager Race Lite
    -Deda Tre HST
    I don't have any data on the R. 1 but considering the ZX on the rear wheel to the Vittoria CX (both 23) will demand ~ 3 watts more power at 25 mph. The ZX 23 weighs in at ~ 195 grams.

  10. #35
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    when you talk about tire wear/longevity, you also have to talk about its corning grip.
    Usually, a tire with good grip will have softer rubber.

    The reason why the GP lasts longer than the Pro3 (and most likely the Pro4 too) is because the former's rubber is made of a harder and higher durometer rubber.

    If you are like me and you like to rail the big mountain roads at 40 mph around a long sweepers, then you will want a tire what will grip like a mother. Sometimes I take a corner so hard and with the g-force I'm pretty much doing pushups against the bar. My motorcycle buddies (we sometimes ride the same mountain roads because those guys like to practice too) who would trail behind me would be saying "you crazy mofo" at some sweepers. They are amazed that a skinny dinky tire can grip like that. (On a sportbike they can blow by the same sweeper at 60mph without much effort). But this is where the Pro3/4 shines. I use them on the front, and Conti GP on the back. I set up my bicycle like I set up my motorcycle, soft on the front, hard on the back. The front is easier on the tire, so use a softer tire. The back tend to chew tire more, so use a harder tire.

    You will NOT find a tire will "last long, wear well" and at the same time grippy. Rubber technology just doesn't work like that. Those of you who say the Michelin doesn't wear well, ugh. of course it won't wear well if all you going to do is drone on the flat. Try taking lots of fast sweepers at 30+mph, then come back and tell me if you want a tire that "wears well" or grip like a leech but doesn't wear as well.

    Vittorias are just too expensive for me. My wallet wouldn't be happy. Pro's upfront, GP out back is what will do it for me. I really don't care about 8 watts saving at 30+ mph. At 40 mph, you ain't thinking about saving watts, you're thinking about not sliding out.

  11. #36
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    Agreed, the Vittoria is a complete waste of money....unless you ride marble-smooth roads. They are so puncture prone I have seen a dried-up stalk of grass go through the tread and exiting the sidewall!
    2007 Cannondale SystemSix1 - Full Dura Ace; Campagnolo Shamal Ultra SOLD

  12. #37
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    Here is a first ride review of the Michelin Pro 4 Service Course. Sound interesting. I'm not seeing them in 700 X 25 anywhere though.

    Michelin Pro 4 Service Course - first ride

    Last year, Michelin’s Pro 4 Service Course clincher booted out the previous incumbent of the French firm’s all-rounder fast road tyre slot, the Pro 3 Race. It promised an improvement in rolling resistance along with 16 percent greater grip on wet tarmac, superior resistance to cuts and punctures and greater “agility” thanks to the tread profile, which is raised in the middle to create a hint of an egg shape. This in turn leaves the sides of the tread slightly flatter than they would be were the profile semi-circular, putting more tread on the road when leant over.

    It is, said Michelin, “capable of going faster” than the older model. In the right hands, presumably. Perhaps what the venerable French firm means is that its cornering limits, in the rain especially, are higher. Certainly, there’s plenty of dry weather grip to play with. But, while it is always nice to have more grip when cornering, using the extra adhesion is not something every rider is keen to try to do, given that the penalties for overconfidence can be severe.

    Of more use most of the time is an improvement in rolling resistance; it is always there, always helping. For sure, run at my regular 95 front, 105 rear psi for 23c rubber, the Pro 4 SC’s feel both zingy and floaty over regularly rumpled tarmac, which is where any excess is most keenly felt. We’ll have to run them back to back with competing rubber to be sure how good they are.

    What is not in question is the toughness of the tread, which has, so far, shrugged off without even a suggestion of a cut the worst that the flints of Surrey’s back lanes can do. There’s said to be an increase in tread life; we’ll get back on that one in another 1,000 miles. And the tread profile-boosted handling characteristics? How about stable but incisive steering? That’ll do to be getting along with while we try them out in a few other machines.

    So, first ride impressions: fast, comfortable, grippy, tough, agile… and, with white sidewalls, rather pretty.

    More soon on RCUK

    Michelin Pro 4 Service Course £30.00; Black, White, Digital Blue, Dark Blue, Ivory, Pink and Red, 700x20c, 23c, 25c

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by darwinosx View Post
    Here is a first ride review of the Michelin Pro 4 Service Course. Sound interesting. I'm not seeing them in 700 X 25 anywhere though.

    Michelin Pro 4 Service Course - first ride

    Last year, Michelin’s Pro 4 Service Course clincher booted out the previous incumbent of the French firm’s all-rounder fast road tyre slot, the Pro 3 Race. It promised an improvement in rolling resistance along with 16 percent greater grip on wet tarmac, superior resistance to cuts and punctures and greater “agility” thanks to the tread profile, which is raised in the middle to create a hint of an egg shape. This in turn leaves the sides of the tread slightly flatter than they would be were the profile semi-circular, putting more tread on the road when leant over.

    It is, said Michelin, “capable of going faster” than the older model. In the right hands, presumably. Perhaps what the venerable French firm means is that its cornering limits, in the rain especially, are higher. Certainly, there’s plenty of dry weather grip to play with. But, while it is always nice to have more grip when cornering, using the extra adhesion is not something every rider is keen to try to do, given that the penalties for overconfidence can be severe.

    Of more use most of the time is an improvement in rolling resistance; it is always there, always helping. For sure, run at my regular 95 front, 105 rear psi for 23c rubber, the Pro 4 SC’s feel both zingy and floaty over regularly rumpled tarmac, which is where any excess is most keenly felt. We’ll have to run them back to back with competing rubber to be sure how good they are.

    What is not in question is the toughness of the tread, which has, so far, shrugged off without even a suggestion of a cut the worst that the flints of Surrey’s back lanes can do. There’s said to be an increase in tread life; we’ll get back on that one in another 1,000 miles. And the tread profile-boosted handling characteristics? How about stable but incisive steering? That’ll do to be getting along with while we try them out in a few other machines.

    So, first ride impressions: fast, comfortable, grippy, tough, agile… and, with white sidewalls, rather pretty.

    More soon on RCUK

    Michelin Pro 4 Service Course £30.00; Black, White, Digital Blue, Dark Blue, Ivory, Pink and Red, 700x20c, 23c, 25c
    A good tire...but a royal pain to mount on most rims.
    2007 Cannondale SystemSix1 - Full Dura Ace; Campagnolo Shamal Ultra SOLD

  14. #39
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    If I could nab a couple in 700 X 25 I would try them out. Its been a while since I ran anything other than Conti's.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    when you talk about tire wear/longevity, you also have to talk about its corning grip.
    Usually, a tire with good grip will have softer rubber.

    The reason why the GP lasts longer than the Pro3 (and most likely the Pro4 too) is because the former's rubber is made of a harder and higher durometer rubber.

    If you are like me and you like to rail the big mountain roads at 40 mph around a long sweepers, then you will want a tire what will grip like a mother. Sometimes I take a corner so hard and with the g-force I'm pretty much doing pushups against the bar. My motorcycle buddies (we sometimes ride the same mountain roads because those guys like to practice too) who would trail behind me would be saying "you crazy mofo" at some sweepers. They are amazed that a skinny dinky tire can grip like that. (On a sportbike they can blow by the same sweeper at 60mph without much effort). But this is where the Pro3/4 shines. I use them on the front, and Conti GP on the back. I set up my bicycle like I set up my motorcycle, soft on the front, hard on the back. The front is easier on the tire, so use a softer tire. The back tend to chew tire more, so use a harder tire.

    You will NOT find a tire will "last long, wear well" and at the same time grippy. Rubber technology just doesn't work like that. Those of you who say the Michelin doesn't wear well, ugh. of course it won't wear well if all you going to do is drone on the flat. Try taking lots of fast sweepers at 30+mph, then come back and tell me if you want a tire that "wears well" or grip like a leech but doesn't wear as well.

    Vittorias are just too expensive for me. My wallet wouldn't be happy. Pro's upfront, GP out back is what will do it for me. I really don't care about 8 watts saving at 30+ mph. At 40 mph, you ain't thinking about saving watts, you're thinking about not sliding out.

    Quote
    "Pro's upfront and GP's on the rear". Same here, the best of both worlds, you get the grip at the front where you need it and a longer lasting tyre at the back.

    I thought it was only me who used this combination.
    Litespeed Icon
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    Dura Ace Crank
    Mavic Ksyrium Elite 2013 WTS 2013
    Mavic CXP33 Ultegra
    Mavic Open Pro Dura Ace


    Bianchi Sempre
    Ultegra
    SLK Carbon Crank
    Deda bars and stem
    Mavic Ksyrium Elite WTS 2013

  16. #41
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    I'm a long time Conti user but would give the Michelin 4's a try if I could find them in 700 X 25 but I've looked everywhere and only see 23's.
    I live in Phoenix and I think the Miches might be better dry weather grip tires if they have beefed up the longevity a little.
    I've been using Conti 4 Seasons for some time and haven't had Miches for awhile.

  17. #42
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    vittoria corsa evos are nice in dry but when wet another story as a previous poster said, I really like the vredstein tri comps had them for approx 3k miles. the tires have no cuts in the tread and so far only 2 flats which may be cause by low tire pressure. i feel confident in the handling on dry or wet surface. just my $00.02

  18. #43
    251
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    FWIW, I've been riding a pair 25mm Open Corsa Evo CX tyres since December 2010. They have around 4000km (2500 miles) on them, and they're nearing the end of their useful life. These tyres are used for one commute per week and other rides in a costal region and low mountains in dry and wet conditions.

    I've had a few punctures in the 15 months been on the bike, mostly from glass, through the last one was a thorn. I generally use a standard butyl tube, sometimes an ultra light. Overall, I haven't found them to be any less durable than other 25mm tyres I've ridden.

    Initially, I was skeptical of the benefits of a tyre like this, but the ride quality is noticeably better than other 25mm tyres I've ridden, and I have a second set of Open Corsas waiting to go on when these are done.

    I'm not sure where the $250 price came from. I bought the initial set online for $50/each and the second set from the LBS for $70/each.
    Dave
    Blog / Strava

  19. #44
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    I only have about 250 miles on my Pro4s, but they seem to be just as nice as the Vittorias I rode on last year.

    It's too cold in my area to get a really good "road feel" test with my gloves and winter bibs on...

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeharper123 View Post
    I only have about 250 miles on my Pro4s, but they seem to be just as nice as the Vittorias I rode on last year.

    It's too cold in my area to get a really good "road feel" test with my gloves and winter bibs on...
    C'mon Man! Take one for the team. Strip down to those bibs and a jersey and hit the road. We're all dyin to hear how those babies ride!

    We'ld do it for you.

  21. #46
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    Thumbs down +1 Amen to this post!

    Quote Originally Posted by metoou2 View Post
    Mdrn,
    But when the rain comes and Mr. Hyde shows up, leave them at home. I went for (5) years with ZERO out of competition crashes. Bought some EVO's and crashed twice in six months while on training rides. The first crash the road was barely damp, the second crash, it was full on raining. Before I bought them I had no idea how they handled in the wet. You can search this Forum and others have had the same experience.
    by the way; Ribblecycles.co.uk is your low cost tire source and they ship to the States for peanuts.
    I normally ride Schwalbe Ultremo ZX, however I decided to splurge and mount some new Corsa EVO CX on my carbon enve 45's. I almost gave up on mounting these tires it was so tough. (but thats beside the point)
    I went to a crit race today and the pavement was still wet from a rainstorm that we had last night. I was doing warmup laps and I setup into my final turn taking a nice clean line @ about 19 or 20mph. I didn't even have my hands on the brake levers but all of a sudden I felt my front tire break loose right out from under me. It almost sounded like the noise of a zipper as the crappy little lines on the shoulders of these tires slid over the pavement. I went down HARD and messed up my shoulder. Ruined my SRAM RED levers, shoes.. major road rash up left leg and arm. I was in total disbelief as to what had just happened. I can promise you that if I had been on my Schwalbe's this would NOT have happened. I have cornered harder in the wet and never lost traction. I am so disgusted with these tires that I am considering removing them from my wheel with a buck knife.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    For $250, you could get eight Pro 3 tires. They're up on sale at around $30/tire on several websites. So what if they only last half as long as the Vittoria's.
    Last time I bought Pro 3's I had one self destruct at 50 miles - split at the seam. I wouldn't care if they were 24 ties for $250.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by nealric View Post
    Last time I bought Pro 3's I had one self destruct at 50 miles - split at the seam. I wouldn't care if they were 24 ties for $250.
    Interesting how limited personal experience colors our judgement. I have felt same way about Conti's since I had 3 sidewall failures in same summer on very low mileage tires (50-150mi). All due to minor sharp road gravel impacts which have never hurt any other tire I've used. LBS acted like it was common experience. But now sidewalls on newer GP4000s seem somewhat better. OTOH- I have complete confidence in Mich PR3's after riding many 1000's of mi on 'em with only a single flat which prob would have killed any pneumatic bike tire. Nasty metal road hazard which sliced clear through tread & casing. Love the PR3's combination of low rolling resistance, good ride/handling, and decent wear (~2500-3500mi on typically marginal Midwest US roads). Not knowing how PR4's might work out, I stocked up on close-out PR3's and use 'em on my aero wheels for training & racing (tri's).

    Less experience with OC CX's, but generally agree with prior posts. Very sweet ride (near tubbie feel) and fast on good dry roads. But too $$$$ for me due to short tread life & low durability. Also not the best handling tire for wet conditions, but certainly not the worst high-end tire I've ridden. Would definitely pick PR3 over OC for fast wet rides, and PR4 should be better still.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachariah View Post
    A good tire...but a royal pain to mount on most rims.
    LOL, glad to see it's not just me.
    As a long time tubular user, a pair of these tires gave me fits on some wheels I just built up for one of my sons. I'm not feeling the "clincher love" that folks seem to have. Ultimately they both were mounted, one had to come off again due to some tube damage. It went back on much easier. In the future I'll mount without a tube (maybe warm the tire up first and give it a stretch). The rim used is a Pacenti SL23
    Last edited by mikerp; 02-25-2013 at 04:23 AM.

  25. #50
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    I have been riding the evo xc 25 until recently. Now I'm not riding at all. I was descending at 34 mph on a dry road and went into a sharp right hand corner. The second half of the corner was in the shade and was still wet. I went down with no warning breaking my femur. Absolutely no warning at all. I ride the route all the time and have never had any problems on that corner. Wish I would have checked here before my tire purchase.

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