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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    I save myself the trouble and just use rims that have proven to work.
    Which is a sane approach. There's a TON of pressure for always newer, something-er, something else-er in the market, and nothing but nothing sells in the bike biz like "new," but from an individual's perspective, you've got it.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    Which is a sane approach. There's a TON of pressure for always newer, something-er, something else-er in the market, and nothing but nothing sells in the bike biz like "new," but from an individual's perspective, you've got it.
    yeah, I understand from a business perspective you have to give in to people trying to get blood from a stone with weights, widths ect. But personally it's just not worth it.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooskull View Post
    I get what you're trying to say, there are tons of variables involved- especially across different rim manufacturers. However, one would think (and that's an assumption since Kirk is unlikely to divulge his previous supplier methods) that the SL23 and SL25 had most of those variables in common: Same manufacturer, same aluminium stock, same extrusion techniques/equipment, presumably just a slightly different extrusion profile. And yet they apparently have very different failure rates.

    If essentially the only variable that's consistently different is rim profile, this might suggest the rim profile somehow plays a leading role in this. Rim profile has to explain another mystery as to why some rims suffer massive tension loss when tubeless tires are mounted while others show hardly any at all.

    Are you sure about that? I'm not saying your wrong, but just saying it's a possibility these could be variables too. Are you sure these two models are made in the same factory? Alloys could very well be different too.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    Which is a sane approach. There's a TON of pressure for always newer, something-er, something else-er in the market, and nothing but nothing sells in the bike biz like "new," but from an individual's perspective, you've got it.
    New doesn't mean good. New means it's never ever worked.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    And that all very quickly became the world's biggest head scratcher as soon as what went on with the SL23v2 started to make itself known. How did two rims, SO similar in section, from the same producer, presumably from the same spec, produce such different results?
    I wonder if it has to do with typical tire choice. Most disc SL25 builds are for 'gravel bikes' (for lack of a better term) with bigger tires at a lower pressure, most SL23 builds are for traditional road bikes with skinny high pressure tires. I think the bigger tires produce a bit more cushion and reduce impact loads vs a 95psi 23mm road tire.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Are you sure about that? I'm not saying your wrong, but just saying it's a possibility these could be variables too. Are you sure these two models are made in the same factory? Alloys could very well be different too.
    No I'm not sure at all, hence my assumption disclaimer. In one of his posts Dave did seem to confirm these assumptions though and he probably has personal contact channels with Kirk.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooskull View Post
    No I'm not sure at all, hence my assumption disclaimer. In one of his posts Dave did seem to confirm these assumptions though and he probably has personal contact channels with Kirk.
    SL23 and SL25 came from the same factory (Sun Ringle) is all I know. Never got any info that was deeper than that. We don't have a lot of facts here.

    I was looking through photos this morning trying to find some hub shots for a blog post and found a comparison of an SL23 and an SL25, cut open to show section and wall thicknesses. Apart from the spoke beds looking like they're exactly the same depth, the sidewalls on the SL25 are notably thicker. Which kind of makes sense because the overall width is the same on both, yet the brake track is proud of the sidewall on the SL23. And the Sl25s generally weight ~ 465g or so.

    Unfortunately, this seems like one of those deals where we just don't learn a whole heck of a lot out of it.

  8. #108
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    November Dave, dump your messages as your box is overlflowing.
    .
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder's with motivation, information and resources.

    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis1 View Post
    I wonder if it has to do with typical tire choice. Most disc SL25 builds are for 'gravel bikes' (for lack of a better term) with bigger tires at a lower pressure, most SL23 builds are for traditional road bikes with skinny high pressure tires. I think the bigger tires produce a bit more cushion and reduce impact loads vs a 95psi 23mm road tire.
    It could be. I know we have people (like myself for most of a year) who use SL25s on road setups, but it's possible that that's at least a contributor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    November Dave, dump your messages as your box is overlflowing.
    Catch me on the next episode of Hoarders.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    Catch me on the next episode of Hoarders.
    You could save some of my more profound messages and have them framed for your wall.
    .
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder's with motivation, information and resources.

    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  11. #111
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    Is it easier to mount tires on the Forza rim than on the Pacenti SL... rims?

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanpole View Post
    Is it easier to mount tires on the Forza rim than on the Pacenti SL... rims?
    Million Dollar Question

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis1 View Post
    I wonder if it has to do with typical tire choice. Most disc SL25 builds are for 'gravel bikes' (for lack of a better term) with bigger tires at a lower pressure, most SL23 builds are for traditional road bikes with skinny high pressure tires. I think the bigger tires produce a bit more cushion and reduce impact loads vs a 95psi 23mm road tire.
    This and also tend to be inflated at lower pressures than the thinner tires which would be more forgiving to the developing stresses on the rim due to compression.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis1 View Post
    I didn't measure the NDS tension. But I measured a 2.75mm offset on the rim, and with a T11 rear hub, my spoke calc tells me the NDS tension should be around ~63% of the DS.
    So I measured the offset again. This time I got 2.3mm. I was definitely off at 1.8mm.

  15. #115
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    Hey all, I've been away for a while. I was out for a ride about a week ago on my bike and discovered that the odd noise that had been bothering me was my rear SL23 cracking. I made it home but the rim is toast (obviously.) It is under a year old and I will be contacting the good folks at BHS to see if they (or Pacenti) will offer anything as a credit against a new rim.

    In case anyone is curious, yes, nipple washers, yes very balanced tension done with a tension meter. I will post pics if anyone cares, but it just looks like you would expect, one spoke nearly exiting rime, several other places where cracks are evident. I weigh between 152 and 160 depending on the time of year. It is a 28 spoke rim.

    Enough with the forensics though. The point of the post is to ask if folks have had anything to report yet about the Forza rim with the offset as a replacement. Given that my front is fine (any reports of any SL23 fronts having problems? Is that even a thing?) and I prefer to ride wheels that at least look matched, if the Forza are solid, then my rebuild will be with them.

    Thanks. I appreciate any info people may have.

  16. #116
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    I rebuilt my rear 28H SL23 with a Forza and had to do some magic to get the spoke lengths correct (I used the same spokes, ended up doing a strange combination of nipples w/ more thread and spoke washers to effectively add/subtract ERD). SL23 wasn't dead I just wanted to try the Forza and didn't want to buy hub/spokes/nipples.

    Cosmetically, the Forza is matte and the SL23 is gloss (at least, mine are). Also, Forza's decals are less of a plastic and more of a paper. I feel the decals are a downgrade (mine look inappropriately budget for a $100+ rim) but the bead-blast matte is an upgrade.

    I actually don't ride my Forza rim much, it's a backup set, but the ~100 or so miles on it have been lovely with zero issues. It also laced up freakishly fast, was much easier to get everything even tension, dished, and laterally/radially true than my Kinlin XR31T. Maybe I'm just bad at wheelbuilding though. I weigh the same as you and use the wheels for racing and training.

    I would also suggest you consider the XR31T, currently my racing wheelset, especially in light of the aero data that November just released. Also, if you don't like the gloss of the XR31T, November has a nice custom finish XR31T that is matte. Mmmmmm. The rim is also cheaper to replace in the event of on-bike trauma

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by coachboyd View Post
    I absolutely love our sub 450 gram alloy clincher rim (the Altamont Lite). In fact, I am about to go ride it on some dirt roads for a few hours.

    I know lots of custom builders who are digging that rim as well.
    What's the max width measurement of the rear with a set of 25mm tires (ideally Continental GP4000S II)?

    I'm looking to rebuild my Pacenti SL23 v1 wheels, and the rear just fits into my Merlin with a Continental GP4000S II 25mm tire
    Bike: Merlin Custom ExtraLight, Enve 1.0 fork, Pacenti SL23 rims with navy blue Chris King hubs & matching spoke nipples, dual King Ti Cages, FSA K-Wing Compact, Ultegra 6800 11speed
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsfbr View Post
    Given that my front is fine (any reports of any SL23 fronts having problems? Is that even a thing?) ....
    Yes. I would give the front a close look - mine also failed. My rear started making noises which I had thought was something else in the drive train. Upon closer inspection, I found several cracks and a couple of spokes starting to pull through the rim. The build was a 2:1 27 spoke build with nipple washers if that makes any difference. I was very lucky to have made it home on the last ride. With the rear toast, I closely inspected the front. I cleaned the rim and found several hairline cracks starting. I probably wouldn't have noticed without a very close look on a clean rim. So I would advise you to keep a close watch on your front.

  19. #119
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    Draggin this back to the top...

    Built up Forza OSB Disc Rims today purchased from BikeHubStore. BikeHubStore.com

    RIms Seemed every bit as good as the SL-25 rim. THe offset is a nice feature. Rim was very robust and never needed to be chased around, even when tensions got close to 120kgf. The seam where the halves were welded was especialy clean inside the rim cavity. No big crimp marks or staking holes. Absolutely NO bulging or deformation around spoke holes. I might have to consider trying the rim brake version. Very pleased with the change.

    Last edited by Enoch562; 04-02-2017 at 05:09 PM.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch562 View Post
    Draggin this back to the top...

    Built up Forza OSB Disc Rims today...
    Thanks for posting, I'm considering the exact same wheel build and curious to know why you did a 2-cross lacing pattern instead of 3-cross.

    -S

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch562 View Post
    Draggin this back to the top...

    Built up Forza OSB Disc Rims today purchased from BikeHubStore. BikeHubStore.com

    RIms Seemed every bit as good as the SL-25 rim. THe offset is a nice feature. Rim was very robust and never needed to be chased around, even when tensions got close to 120kgf. The seam where the halves were welded was especialy clean inside the rim cavity. No big crimp marks or staking holes. Absolutely NO bulging or deformation around spoke holes. I might have to consider trying the rim brake version. Very pleased with the change.


    Nice hoops!

    How's the finish on those Forzas? Pacenti switch to painting their graphics on rather than stickers?...granted I liked the stickers since they were really easy to pull off.
    "‘Photograph me on horseback,’ wrote Teddy Roosevelt in 1908. ‘Tennis, no. And golf is fatal.’ "

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIF View Post
    Thanks for posting, I'm considering the exact same wheel build and curious to know why you did a 2-cross lacing pattern instead of 3-cross.

    -S
    With a 24/28 spokes, saw no reason for 3x on rear. Nothing to gain.

    The finish is very nice on these rims. Still using stickers. I think this may be some of the best rims Pacenti has offered.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIF View Post
    Thanks for posting, I'm considering the exact same wheel build and curious to know why you did a 2-cross lacing pattern instead of 3-cross.

    -S
    From what I can see, those wheels are 24 spoke front/28 spoke rear.

    For a 24 spoke wheel, 2x is the maximum you can do without crossing a spoke over another spoke head at the hub. This is something you don't want to do.

    For a 28 spoke wheel, while 3x is preferred according to Roger Musson's wheelbuilding book, 2x is also perfectly acceptable. This is probably more aesthetics than anything else.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    From what I can see, those wheels are 24 spoke front/28 spoke rear.

    For a 24 spoke wheel, 2x is the maximum you can do without crossing a spoke over another spoke head at the hub. This is something you don't want to do.

    For a 28 spoke wheel, while 3x is preferred according to Roger Musson's wheelbuilding book, 2x is also perfectly acceptable. This is probably more aesthetics than anything else.
    Plus, you drop a little bit of weight because of shorter spokes.

    In my experience, with todays components there is no reason not to go 2X on a 28 spoke rim-brake road wheel.
    There I was...

  25. #125
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    I can't get the Musson calculator to give any preference to 3x over 2x for any 28h build I put into it. It gives white cells for both 2x and 3x. I've always taken the color coding to be White = "Do This", Teal = "You Could Do This But It's Not The Best Way", Grey = "You Could Do This But It's Dumb," and Red = "This Won't Work."

    From experience, having built more 1000 28 hole rear wheels (including 8 in the last 2 days) every one of them 2x, it works just fine.

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