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  1. #1
    wut?
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    New Pacenti Forza Road Rim

    BIKERUMOR

    Replaces the SL23 with more weight, wider brake track, deeper nipple bed, and deeper channel. Sounds like they are finally calling "Uncle" on the past design problems. The Asymmetric rear rim is a nice comeback however.

    So, what now sets these apart from the other similar offerings? Price?
    Last edited by Clipped_in; 10-27-2016 at 06:40 AM.
    There I was...

  2. #2
    wheelbuilder
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    The offset rear is one major feature that sets it apart.

    I have found that more spoke tension is lost with tubeless rims in general. When a tubeless tire is installed, the loss is even greater. This is due to the friction fit of the tire bead compressing the rim.

    The offset rim will result in more tension in the left side spokes. This makes them less likely to be below a level that sacrifices wheel durability (staying true, broken spokes).

    I have a couple thousand miles on a preproduction set of the rims. The new vendor is definitely better at overall quality control. They are really a step up from the SL23 versions (which were still generally great rims). The brake track is a normal width so no special pads are recommended.


  3. #3
    wut?
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    You need to wash your bike. It looks like mine... Kewl waterbottle BTW!
    There I was...

  4. #4
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    Did some trail riding that day!

  5. #5
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    ergott, do you have a ding in the rim? Almost looks that you have a flat spot or dent in the rim right above the chainstay.

    As for the Forza rims, I'll take a look at them for a build. the dimensions look very similar to the SL23's which I liked except for the cracking!

  6. #6
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    No that's the reflection from the chainstay. Smooth, no pulsing at all.

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  7. #7
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    Eric, have you any idea what the nipple bed thickness is on the new rim? And if so, how it relates to the old one?
    .
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  8. #8
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    It's a bit thicker, but I don't remember what I measured. I want to say 2.3 or 2.5mm, but don't quote me on that.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergott View Post
    It's a bit thicker, but I don't remember what I measured. I want to say ** or **mm, but don't quote me on that.
    Thanks. And I didn't!
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Eric, have you any idea what the nipple bed thickness is on the new rim? And if so, how it relates to the old one?
    Is there an issue with the SL23 nipple bed assuming one uses nipple washers? Just curious as I've not had a problem.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsfbr View Post
    Is there an issue with the SL23 nipple bed assuming one uses nipple washers? Just curious as I've not had a problem.
    I haven't had a problem with my two sets (v1 and v2), with nipple washers, but then I don't have lots of miles on either set. But I think they do have a history of cracking and I think someone around here said theirs cracked and they were using washers.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    I haven't had a problem with my two sets (v1 and v2), with nipple washers, but then I don't have lots of miles on either set. But I think they do have a history of cracking and I think someone around here said theirs cracked and they were using washers.
    Mike,

    I'm noticing a pattern where many rims that historically have problems, you never had problems with. I can only conclude:

    1) A quality wheelbuild is more important than wheel components themselves.

    2) You live where it's mostly flat and therefore you're not stressing your rear wheel terribly.

    3) As you said, since you have so many wheelsets, you don't put a tremendous amount of miles on most of them?

    Some or all of the above.

    Just guessing. Food for thought.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Mike,
    I'm noticing a pattern where many rims that historically have problems, you never had problems with. I can only conclude:
    1) A quality wheelbuild is more important than wheel components themselves.
    2) You live where it's mostly flat and therefore you're not stressing your rear wheel terribly.
    3) As you said, since you have so many wheelsets, you don't put a tremendous amount of miles on most of them?
    Some or all of the above.
    Just guessing. Food for thought.
    You're correct on all counts. I keep on the low side for overall DS tension, I use nipple washers on non-ferrule rims (my OP rims have ferrules of course), most of my riding terrain is "gently rolly" but with the occasional 36/25 hill; I have maybe 5 wheelsets which I rotate through on 2 bikes, I'm not heavy (175) and I'm not as young and strong as I was.
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    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    You're correct on all counts. I keep on the low side for overall DS tension.....
    Seriously? What do you consider low DS tension? If you have an 11-speed freehub, won't that make your NDS tension too low?
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
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    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Seriously? What do you consider low DS tension? If you have an 11-speed freehub, won't that make your NDS tension too low?
    What do you mean by "too low"? Too low for what?
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    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  16. #16
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    I have a wheelset (DT 240 + CX Rays) I need to rebuild eventually. I'm not that stoked with the SL23s...slight brake pulsing is annoying. This rim seems interesting, but I need to check out the specs and compare them to the there newer rims out there. Easton has one out too.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Seriously? What do you consider low DS tension? If you have an 11-speed freehub, won't that make your NDS tension too low?
    There is no NDS specification therefore there is no NDS "too low". The DS is to specification the NDS is along for the ride at whatever it may be in order to properly dish the wheel.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by craiger_ny View Post
    There is no NDS specification therefore there is no NDS "too low". The DS is to specification the NDS is along for the ride at whatever it may be in order to properly dish the wheel.
    You need to pay attention to the NDS tension if you want to build reliable wheels. If you don't, nipples get unscrewed and spokes brake.
    How much is the minimum NDS tension is a difficult question to answer because of the number of variables involved.
    To me, my preferences and my way of riding the following hold true regarding NDS tension:
    - above 55 kgf, good to go
    - 50 to 54 kgf, skeptical
    - below 50 kgf, no go
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  19. #19
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    This is what I thought. On an 11-speed freehub, a 130kgf DS will equate to around 55kgf NDS. On an 8-9-10 speed freehub, that will be more like 70kgf.

    Tension is your friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    What do you mean by "too low"? Too low for what?
    And what do you mean by "low side for overall DS tension"?

    I think most rims can tolerate at least 120kgf. DT Swiss has that listed as the max tension on most of their rims. 130kgf without an inflated tire will bring you within 120kgf with an inflated tire. I am a firm believer of overbuilding. If a rim can't tolerate 120kgf, it is not worth my consideration, but that's JMO.

    From what I have always understood, undertensioning makes flexing of spokes greater. The more spokes flex, the sooner they will fatigue and break. How soon? That could depend on many other factors. But if I am building a wheel, I am going to take pride in my accomplishment. I see longevity as a noble accomplishment. I see early failure as my failure. I want a wheel that will be more than just fast and pretty. I would like to come back in 15K miles and be able to say that while the brake track is now toast, the wheel is otherwise still healthy.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
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    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I want a wheel that will be more than just fast and pretty. I would like to come back in 15K miles and be able to say that while the brake track is now toast, the wheel is otherwise still healthy.
    I've got a customer who rides a lot, he's on a set of SL23's, gen 2, I built them with nipple washers on the rear wheel, 24/28 spoke count, he's about 160lbs. His first rear rim cracked after about 15,000 miles, which for him was just over a year (he has multiple bikes tho...). He's still riding the warranty replacement rear SL23. He called recently and the front rim is about in need of replacement, he's almost down to the bottom of the wear indicators on the brake track. It's got more than 30,000 miles at this point, including two week long 'Cent Cols' in the Alps.

    The SL23 was juuuuuust about the perfect road rim, minus the cracking issue (which didn't happen to every rim, I've got plenty of folks who haven't had a problem). I'm hopeful the updates to create the Forza fix that.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    And what do you mean by "low side for overall DS tension"?
    I mean "at the low end of what would be considered traditionally acceptable tension". For many decades (5) I built my wheels without the use of a tensiometer to quantify my tensioning judgement. Yes, as we came up through the number of cassette cogs (5-6-7-8-9-10-11) and accompanying axle lengths (120-130) with resulting flange spacing since I started wheelbuilding, the window for acceptable spoke tension has become smaller; more crucial.

    Back when I started wheelbuilding ('62) there was no such thing as a spoke tensiometer. I've no idea when the first one was invented. But even I, when faced with 10 and 11spd hubs, could see the benefit to optimum spoke tension. But I built lots of 10-spd wheels with zero failures or issues (nipple loosening) due to lack of a tensiometer. In fact none ever failed.

    I obtained a tensiometer (a Wheelfanatyk Digital) almost 4 years ago. It coincided with my first 11-spd hubs. As an interesting experiment I checked all the wheels in my possession, just to see how well I had done in tensioning my wheels by feel and gut reaction alone. I don't remember exact figures but I remember them being "low" relative to 125kgf. Let's say they were 100 - 110kgf. And they were all consistently low.

    I think most rims can tolerate at least 120kgf. DT Swiss has that listed as the max tension on most of their rims. 130kgf without an inflated tire will bring you within 120kgf with an inflated tire. I am a firm believer of overbuilding. If a rim can't tolerate 120kgf, it is not worth my consideration, but that's JMO.
    That figure gets kicked around as being traditionally acceptable. But two things -

    1) I think it's a fair statement that higher spoke tension, no matter what the rim, will lead to earlier nipple hole cracking than lower tension.
    2) Even low tension (compared to traditionally accepted tension) has never lead to any form of failure (nipple loosening; spoke fatigue breakage) on any of my wheels. In fact none of those things have happened since I became a passionate wheelbuilder and started paying attention to the fine details of wheelbuilding (equal tensions, stress & windup relief etc). That must be 26 years ago or so. My site grew from this accumulation of knowledge.

    So if "low" tension causes me no problems (I can't speak for others) and if it lowers the potential for nipple hole cracks then I will continue to adopt it. I did tension some of my more recent wheels to around 125kgf (120?) and that was on two rim models that have had reported hole cracking problems (Pacenti SL23 and Ryde Pulse models). My two Ryde sources report two cracked rims and zero cracked rims respectively but still, AFAIK, the Ryde Pulse (Sprint and Comp rims) are off the market at the moment. So I will see if my two wheelsets develop cracks. What a pity I can't test 4 sets of wheels - with both 125kgf and (about) 110kgf tensions. I'm open to donations to the cause!

    From what I have always understood, undertensioning makes flexing of spokes greater. The more spokes flex, the sooner they will fatigue and break. How soon? That could depend on many other factors. But if I am building a wheel, I am going to take pride in my accomplishment. I see longevity as a noble accomplishment. I see early failure as my failure. I want a wheel that will be more than just fast and pretty. I would like to come back in 15K miles and be able to say that while the brake track is now toast, the wheel is otherwise still healthy.
    Yep I agree and there aren't many people that take more pride in their home-built wheels than me. But there aren't many measurements for "the sooner they will fatigue and break" and certainly we can't test them two ways at the same time.

    Lom, there's a lot of opinion bandied about on a lot of topics and I'm skeptical enough and inquisitive enough to want to question some of the dogma. Hell I did it with religion decades ago. So I don't blindly accept the spoke tension dogma. And I'm on top of my wheels enough (spokes get pinged at each bike clean or any other time the bike is on the stand) and I would react to their needs.

    But consider this - if spokes do break from low tension fatigue and if rims do crack from high tension - which would you rather replace? Spokes or rims?
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    130kgf without an inflated tire will bring you within 120kgf with an inflated tire.
    That's a very optimistic drop when talking about tubeless tires. With my latest set of Kinlin XR31Ts, the front dropped from 110kgf uninflated to 70kgf inflated; the rear DS went from 140kgf -> 110kgf. This was with tubeless tires inflated to a PSI of 75f/85r. Not to mention dish was also altered considerably. My previous set of SL23s also had a similar dramatic drop in pressure with tubeless tires.

  23. #23
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    I think 3-4 years ago when the SL23 rims first came out they were pretty innovative. Now, Pacenti is essentially still trying to produce a reliable version of those same rims while others are leap frogging them technologically.

    I personally like the newer rims that are more "semi-aero" in the 30mm+ deep category that frankly don't weigh a whole lot more (say ~500g'ish) than the SL23: rims like Kinlin XR31T, DT RR511 and A-Force Al33. If you can get decent aero performance and alloy braking for a small fraction of the price of aero carbon wheels, that is a winning combo IMO.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooskull View Post
    I personally like the newer rims that are more "semi-aero" in the 30mm+ deep category that frankly don't weigh a whole lot more (say ~500g'ish) than the SL23
    My v3 SL23 (woops a typo! Should be v2!!) averaged 424grams. That's a whole lot less than 500g.
    Last edited by Mike T.; 11-01-2016 at 07:45 AM.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    My v3 SL23 averaged 424grams. That's a whole lot less than 500g.
    Granted the DT 511 is pretty chunky at 530g, but the XR31T is "officially" ~480g and the AL33 is reported to be ~465g. The SL23 v3 is listed as 455g. 20g to 30g is negligible to everyone but the stingiest weight weenie. I seem to remember someone in this forum saying the SL23 v2 rims had that much production weight variation alone.

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