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  1. #1
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    Help This Newbie Wheelbuilder

    My first post, a lot of specific information and questions. Sorry it's long; did my best to condense.

    Recently bought a used Basso Loto (early 2000s), current wheels laced 32H 2X spoke pattern front and rear to Campy Daytona hubs and Sun ME14A Rims.

    Desired outcome: Relace the Daytona 32H hub to modern (2016?) Mavic Open Pro C with DT spokes. To keep in mind (and if it matters), my weight fluctuates 150-160 lbs. I was planning on using Competition 15/16/15 (1.8/1.6/1.8) spokes and brass nipples.

    First question, I know that the "common practice" is, if relacing a hub, use the same pattern as original. I would have liked to use 3X but since they're currently 2X, I was going to relace 2X. Is this correct, is it ok to relace 3X?

    Second, the front and rear wheels are currently laced "opposite"? As in (doing my best to explain), when looking at the bike from the drive side with the valve stem at 12 o'clock, the spoke to the right of the valve hole is coming out of the hub from the NDS outer flange. For the front wheel, from the same perspective, the spoke to the right of the vale hole is coming out of the hub from the NDS inner flange. Is this how the lacing should be, or is it just wrong? And if it is wrong, I hope I don't have to relace it this way? (I can post pictures if my wording is confusing.)

    Third, if I am to maintain the original 2X pattern, and given my weight, would Comp 15/16/15 (1.8/1.6/1.8) spokes be sufficient enough (I am aware it would be OK for 3X). Or since it would be 2X, should I use Comp 14/15/14 (2.0/1.8/2.0) spokes?

    Fourth, whichever spokes and spoke pattern I choose, should I run a different (stiffer/stronger) spoke type on the DS right side for power transfer/output purposes? So if I go with the 15/16/15, maybe use a Comp 14/15/14 or Champion 14 or 15 ga plain gauge? Or would the difference be minimal and/or pointless?

    Lastly, do I need to use spoke washers either at the hub or at the nipple? I vaguely remember reading somewhere that if relacing a used hub, it's recommended to use washers. Advice?

    That's all for now. I appreciate any and all feedback!

    -Scott
    Last edited by SGirvan; 07-12-2017 at 03:23 PM.

  2. #2
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    Good questions, well asked.

    Maintaining the original pattern for subsequent rebuilds is most (really, only) important for the hub. The spokes "grain" the hub flange, and if you cross the grain, the flange has a high likelihood of cracking prematurely. Seen it happen more than enough to believe it, potentially dodgy metallurgy aside. That means heads out/heads in as they were, same leading/trailing directions, and yes same 2x pattern. Of those three facets, going from 2x to 3x would probably be the lesser crime, but I'd stick with 2x, you'll be fine that way anyhow.

    Aren't the 1.8/1.5/1.8 DTs Supercomps? In any case, for first build I'd use 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes. The thin middle sections twist, and though it gets easy to manage as you gain experience, you don't need to be fighting that at the start. Make your first build easy. That also takes care of the "do I use stronger spokes on the drive side" question - not in this case, no you don't.

    Functionally, at your size on a 32 spoke wheel you're going to have trouble with nothing. The wheel will barely know you're on it.

    You don't say which Sun rims but it's SUPER unusual for rims not to be handed the same way. The spoke next to the spoke hole should point the same direction both front and back. The only time I've ever seen this not be the case is with Corima carbon rims. I don't know why they do it. Your rims might be center drilled, in which case it wouldn't matter, but it's still sort of more proper for them to match.

    Again, without knowing the rim I can't say whether nipple washer in the rim are necessary. They should not be, especially if the rim has eyelets. On the hub flange, if the flange holes have been elongated you may wish to use washers, but Campagnolo hubs are pretty well made (even if Daytona wasn't their premium group) that the holes should have been sized well and the hub shells of a hard enough metal that it wouldn't be necessary. Certainly no harm would come from doing it though, if you wanted to.

    Good luck.

  3. #3
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    Thank you for the thorough response, Dave!

    I don't want to risk anything with lacing dis-similarly to how they are currently laced, so I will stick with the 2X as is. I was thinking 1.8/1.6/1.8, which are just the smaller Comps, not the 1.5 midsection Supercomps. But I do heed your advice to using 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes for my first build; managing twist and tension is one of my bigger concerns. I will probably go with the slightly thicker spokes.

    The Sun rims that are currently laced are the ME14A, but I will not be re-using them. As mentioned, I will be using newer Open Pros (already in hand).

    Regarding the odd opposite lacing, here are some pictures. For clarification, the QR levers on both wheels are on the left/non-drive side (as normal) when the rim labels are read from the same direction; valves at 12 o'clock. If you can tell from the pics, they are not identical.

    So this leads me to ask... Can I "flip" the hubs in relation to the new rims so that when relacing, the spokes will fall in the pre-existing divots/grains, and the pattern will also match with leading/trailing directions?

    Thanks again,
    Newbie (Re)Building First Wheel-img_1285.jpgNewbie (Re)Building First Wheel-img_2834.jpgNewbie (Re)Building First Wheel-img_5226.jpgNewbie (Re)Building First Wheel-img_6366.jpg

  4. #4
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    Sorry, my reading comp is good but my attention span is less so. Flipping the rim relative to the hub won't do anything. The Open Pros you've got are directionally drilled, so they'll prefer if you work with their directionality. The only real choice I see you having there (someone might have a better solution - I deal 10 to 1 in brand new builds so I don't think about these issues all that much) is to move each spoke over one hole - rotate the hub relative to the rim by one hole. That will be a bit goofy as you will no longer have parallel spokes bordering the valve stem, but you will still be able to get a pump head onto the stem just fine and more importantly the wheel will be structurally correct. And you'll have a good start on being able to build wheels.

  5. #5
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    Hi SGirvan,

    I agree with Dave to use thicker spokes for your first build. In fact, I would go one step further and use DT Aero Comp bladed spokes. Aero Comps are a thicker version of Aero Lites. With bladed spokes, you will immediately see when you start to twist and know exactly when and how much to turn back. Of course you can always use Post-It flags on round spokes, but I've found those tend to slip, making them much less helpful.

    I am also still a rather novice wheel builder having built a whopping two wheel sets. I did my first set with DT Competitions 14/15/14 and my second set with the DT Aero Comps. I won't be building any more wheels with round spokes. The Aero Comps are well worth the extra cost.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGirvan View Post
    I don't want to risk anything with lacing dis-similarly to how they are currently laced, so I will stick with the 2X as is.
    Those wheels in the photo are laced 3x.

    Regarding the odd opposite lacing, here are some pictures. For clarification, the QR levers on both wheels are on the left/non-drive side (as normal) when the rim labels are read from the same direction; valves at 12 o'clock. If you can tell from the pics, they are not identical.

    So this leads me to ask... Can I "flip" the hubs in relation to the new rims so that when relacing, the spokes will fall in the pre-existing divots/grains, and the pattern will also match with leading/trailing directions?
    Yes, just flip the hub around.

    This is just an issue with the placement of the spokes on the hub flange, and not about the front and rear rims being drilled differently.

  7. #7
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    Bear in mind that it's super likely that I'm misunderstanding this, but from what I read one of the original wheels was laced with the wrong rim handing. If that's the case, just flipping the rim shouldn't solve anything. That would be the functional equivalent of flipping the front skewer on the existing wheel.

    Hard to explain without pictures, but hold the wheel in lap across your legs, with the valve hole opposite you (if your belly button is 6 o'clock, the valve hole should be at 12). The spoke in the hole to the left of the valve hole should come from the top flange, regardless of whether the top flange is drive or non-drive. The huge majority of handed (not center drilled) rims are handed that way.

    But again, likely I'm misunderstanding something here.

    And yes, those wheels are absolutely 3x laced per the pics.

  8. #8
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    Looking at photo 2, the leading spokes are on the outside of the hub flange, and in photo 3 the leading spokes lie on the inside. This ties in with the original description of the issue. The reference to the valve hole just confuses things. That's my understanding.

    Note for SGirvan, a "leading spoke" points forwards.

  9. #9
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    Gotcha. (thinking aloud here...) On the shown rear wheel, drive side leaders are heads out, non-drive leaders are heads in. On the front one, one side (depending on how you flip the skewer) is leaders heads out and the other is leaders heads in.

    I get it now.

    The lacing we use here happens to be leaders heads in everywhere, but I agree with the late great Sheldon Brown that there's really nothing in it except personal preference.

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