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  1. #26
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: velodog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    Wind up in building is completely irrelevant here. The shape of the bladed spoke conveniently lends itself to preventing windup. That's all.

    What it relevant is that all wheel stresses impart (or reduce) tensile loads on spokes. Flexing in the middle section of the wheel is 100% irrelevant in this regard. There is no fulcrum around which spokes get bent to make that relevant. A spoke in a wheel is either being pulled harder or less hard. That's it. End of story.

    There are a number of reasons why one rim may be more or less expensive than another, which again, isn't relevant here. Though the R460 is a nice, useful rim which has a place in the universe of rims, the alloy used in it is soft and this is obvious when you build with it. It is also not finished as nicely as a HED rim (few to none are). But the shape of a HED C2 is not the same as a DT R460, and the metal is not the same, therefore there is no reason why they should be the same stiffness. And they are not the same stiffness.

    To reiterate the most important part, neither wheel, properly built, is anywhere close to under built for the OP's purpose. A difference has been perceived but no difference has been proven. Without being an a-----le, I challenge the premise that there's a perceptible difference. I don't think we're going to get a selection of people to blind test these wheels under controlled conditions, so this whole discussion is academic at best. I didn't do a very good job of not being an a----le there.
    I saw no asswholishness in this post.
    Too old to ride plastic

  2. #27
    grizzly moderator
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    Torsional stiffness is proportional to the 4th power of the diameter of a round spoke or the thickness of an aero bladed spoke. This would be 1.8mm for the round Comp and 1.2 mm for the Aero Comp, both to the 4th power. This means that the torsional strength (stiffness) of a round spoke wheel is substantially greater than that of a bladed spoke wheel. This is one of the trade-offs for greater aero performance.
    A FEM analysis could show the extent of influence but sort of that and strictly empirically I have seen lateral stiffness improvement on carbon rim wheels when the DS aero spokes are replaced with butted round spokes. So I'm not quick in dismissing the role of spoke shape on how the overall wheel stiffness is affected.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  3. #28
    RoadBikeReview Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    Wind up in building is completely irrelevant here. The shape of the bladed spoke conveniently lends itself to preventing windup. That's all.

    What it relevant is that all wheel stresses impart (or reduce) tensile loads on spokes. Flexing in the middle section of the wheel is 100% irrelevant in this regard. There is no fulcrum around which spokes get bent to make that relevant. A spoke in a wheel is either being pulled harder or less hard. That's it. End of story.

    There are a number of reasons why one rim may be more or less expensive than another, which again, isn't relevant here. Though the R460 is a nice, useful rim which has a place in the universe of rims, the alloy used in it is soft and this is obvious when you build with it. It is also not finished as nicely as a HED rim (few to none are). But the shape of a HED C2 is not the same as a DT R460, and the metal is not the same, therefore there is no reason why they should be the same stiffness. And they are not the same stiffness.

    To reiterate the most important part, neither wheel, properly built, is anywhere close to under built for the OP's purpose. A difference has been perceived but no difference has been proven. Without being an a-----le, I challenge the premise that there's a perceptible difference. I don't think we're going to get a selection of people to blind test these wheels under controlled conditions, so this whole discussion is academic at best. I didn't do a very good job of not being an a----le there.
    Let me just start by saying I took absolutely no offense to your post, so I don't see why you thought you were being an a----le. So relax. You are certainly allowed to disagree with me.

    I will admit than perception isn't always reality, but I'm trying to find a reason why it's there. If it were entirely a placebo effect, I would have expected the R460s to be more stable as they are just a tad wider. At least that was my thinking, whether based in reality or not. But my perception is the other way around. So that is when I speculated the difference may have been the different spoke count in the front.

    I will agree that there aren't many rims nicer than the HEDs. But that would have been pretty boring if I had built two wheelsets for myself with exactly the same rims, wouldn't it? So for my second build, I was looking for a good quality rim and was vacillating between the DT R411 and the H+Son Archetype. The Archetype's narrower and painted brake track was the dealbreaker on that one. Then along comes the newer DT R460. The price was certainly right, DT quality has usually been pretty good and others here gave it a thumbs up. It also looks a hell of a lot nicer than the R411. So why not? As far as your saying the alloys are softer on the DTs, I'm thinking that is why DT wheels got good reviews as far as braking. In that regard, I don't perceive any difference. But I'm guessing if this is true, the brake tracks will wear faster. Oh well.

    I have to question your statement "There is no fulcrum around which spokes get bent to make that relevant". Isn't the hub a fulcrum? So what is it that pulls a wheel in one direction or the other under load? In other words, when I press on the side of the rim and it moves toward the stay, what is the weakest link that is allowing me to do this?

    Your point is certainly well taken on neither of my wheetsets being underbuilt. If fact, I make it a point to overbuild my stuff as I'm not terribly concerned about weight and I prefer to be self reliant - especially when I'm out in a rural area and possibly miles from a cell signal. I'd also like to show off these wheels some day after tens of thousands of miles and tell people I built these!
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

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