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  1. #26
    Russian Troll Farmer
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlosflanders View Post
    ...... Radial spoking on one side can certainly help make a wheel stiffer but is more likely to make the problem worse.
    Actually, radial spoking (or, more accurately, SEMI-radial spoking on the rear) won't make the wheel any stiffer, in fact, I believe it will make it just a bit less stiff. What semi-radial spoking does is keeps 'leading' spokes on the non-drive side of a heavily-dished wheel from going completely slack when accelerating. This keeps the spokes from fatiguing and breaking. Since none of the spokes are either 'leading' or 'trailing', they ALL get tensioned.
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  2. #27
    Schuylkill Trail Bum
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    That's a new one for the books.
    It's also widely known that an orange bike will absorb or otherwise neutralize more of the sound from black spokes than any other color.

    I ride an orange bike. It's very quiet. Eerily quiet.

  3. #28
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    I'm not sure we can definitively say whether the pinging in your wheels is good or not over the internet. One would need to look at the condition of the actual wheels and hear the actual pinging.

    Having said that, I have heard many a low spoke count wheel lightly pinging when ridden, that has nothing to do with whether the wheel was stress relieved, spokes unwound, or spokes correctly tensioned or not.

    For example, I have a set of Campy Hyperon's that have ~75k trouble free miles on them where both the front and back quietly ping for the first couple revolutions at the start of every ride - they have done so from almost brand new. The front and the NDS rear are radial laced, all straight pull, so it's not purely a function spokes rubbing one another. These wheels are well beyond the break-in period where bedding or windup might still being dealt with, and the spokes are very evenly and sufficiently tensioned - these wheels have only required minor spoke work once early on in their lives. I've been tucked in behind countless others with low spoke count wheels where the pinging is constant and annoying - whose riders are oblivious to the noise when asked. Carbon rims seem to magnify the sound more so.

    Many low spoke count wheels are pushing the limits of spokes, rims and hub flanges often resulting in more flexing, even when sufficiently tensioned. It's not uncommon for such flexing to cause some pinging sounds. Spoke crosses are easy to address with a dab of oil every now and then. But there can be flexing at the interface with the hub or rim, which may not go away with a dab of oil.

  4. #29
    RoadBikeReview Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHankey View Post
    I'm not sure we can definitively say whether the pinging in your wheels is good or not over the internet. One would need to look at the condition of the actual wheels and hear the actual pinging.

    Having said that, I have heard many a low spoke count wheel lightly pinging when ridden, that has nothing to do with whether the wheel was stress relieved, spokes unwound, or spokes correctly tensioned or not.

    For example, I have a set of Campy Hyperon's that have ~75k trouble free miles on them where both the front and back quietly ping for the first couple revolutions at the start of every ride - they have done so from almost brand new. The front and the NDS rear are radial laced, all straight pull, so it's not purely a function spokes rubbing one another. These wheels are well beyond the break-in period where bedding or windup might still being dealt with, and the spokes are very evenly and sufficiently tensioned - these wheels have only required minor spoke work once early on in their lives. I've been tucked in behind countless others with low spoke count wheels where the pinging is constant and annoying - whose riders are oblivious to the noise when asked. Carbon rims seem to magnify the sound more so.

    Many low spoke count wheels are pushing the limits of spokes, rims and hub flanges often resulting in more flexing, even when sufficiently tensioned. It's not uncommon for such flexing to cause some pinging sounds. Spoke crosses are easy to address with a dab of oil every now and then. But there can be flexing at the interface with the hub or rim, which may not go away with a dab of oil.
    Me thinks you have very acute hearing. Have you ever considered a career with the CIA? I have had low spoke count alloy wheels and can only recall hearing a few pings when brand new. And believe me, some of these wheels were flexy for sure.

    I have no first hand experience with carbon wheels, so I can't say there.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  5. #30
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    It is still a bit of a concern for me. They are these wheels
    Performance Wheelhouse -- Stan's Arch EX 29 Mountain Bike Wheelset

    On this bike
    https://www.diamondback.com/haanjo-exp-carbon

    With 35mm Compass tires at 45ish psi

    So... 32 spoke, not low count. 2000 miles on them. The noise gets louder if I add weight (20 lbs of luggage). I weigh 205 lbs.

    Currently, with just me on the bike I can just barely hear it at low speeds, climbing.

    What is "stress relief" for spokes? They are supposed to be stressed to a proper tension, right?
    Last edited by jeff400650; 08-30-2017 at 06:29 AM.

  6. #31
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    Last edited by Lombard; 08-30-2017 at 08:39 AM.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff400650 View Post
    What is "stress relief" for spokes? They are supposed to be stressed to a proper tension, right?
    Stress Relief (or optimizing) as said by our very own Mike T.:

    Wheels

    Spokes, when they are first tensioned, tend to straighten out and bed into the soft alloy of the hub flanges. We want to take all that stuff out of them while we are doing the actual building. If we don’t, they will continue to stretch, straighten and bed on our first few rides and they will slacken off and allow the wheel to go out of true. I've seen wheels loosen off so bad (not mine of course!) during their first ride that they were unridable.
    Also when we build, we "wind up" the spokes (impart a twist into them) due to turning the nipples and the thread friction. Thread lubrication lessesns this. This wind-up must be eliminated and it was coverd above. Stress relief, below, especially Step 5, will eliminate any windup left over.
    There are six techniques that achieve the above three steps of pre-stretching, removing wind-up, relieving stresses and bedding. Each separate method achieves more than one effect so I will lump them all together under the name - Optimising.
    Optimising your spokes -
    Method 1. Perform this once only, just after you have got a fair amount of tension in the wheels. Where the "heads in" spokes exit the hubs – take the plastic tipped hammer and tap the spoke bend a little flatter. This does not take much effort. You can also use your thumb to flatten this curve when lacing these "heads in" spokes. They will reach the rim easier and better. You're actually bending the spoke where it exits the hub. You need to do this so that the spoke contains no residual tension due to this curve. Verrrry important!
    Here is a pic of two spokes - one, a head-out spoke that doesn't need the neck angle setting and the other, a head-in spoke that needs the neck angle setting. You can see the difference in the bends after they have been laced into a wheel, the angle set and wheel tensioned.

    Method 2. Perform this after every "round" of truing or tensioning. Grasp parallel pairs of spokes on each side – one pair in each hand - while wearing leather gloves and squeeze them in the hands as hard as you can. Go all around the wheel once.
    Method 3. Perform once. Take the screwdriver handle and slightly twist the final spoke crosses around each other. Be gentle here. Place the screwdriver handle in the final cross and above it, press down slightly and twist the two spokes around each other. This is not really a "twist" but just a slight, very slight bending. The spokes will do this themselves if you don't do it but then they might lose a minute bit of tension too.
    Method 4. Do this after each "round" of added tension - press downinto the final spokecrossing, from the rim side of the cross, towards the hub. I use an old screwdriver handle for this (it's my nipple driver above).Use a screwdriver handle, an old LH crank or a wooden dowel (like a 6" piece of old broom handle).
    Method 5. Do this once after you have a fair amount of tension on the spokes. Take a thin punch and a hammer. Tap the head of each spoke to seat the head squarely in the hub flange. I said "tap"................not "pound the **** out of". We're just seating the head in the flange and aligning the head.

    Method 6. Place wheel flat on floor with the rim part nearest to you touching the floor. A piece of cardboard or carpet will prevent the QR from scratches. With hands at 9 & 3 o'clock, press down gently but firmly and quickly. Rotate wheel 1/8th turn & repeat for one full turn of the wheel. Turn wheel over and repeat. The pings you hear are spokes unwinding. But if you have identified and removed all twist, as outlined above in the section "Spoke Twist......" there shouldn't be any left. Check for true afterwards. Repeat this after each stage or "round". You can't repeat this one too often.

    The above methods will take your wheels to the next step above average wheels built by average in-a-hurry wheel builders. They will produce wheels that will not ping as you first ride them (spokes untwisting and relieving themselves) and that will NOT need re-truing after the first few rides, which is the sure sign of a poor wheelbuild.
    People on forums debate and argue every day about some or all of the methods above. It gets really boring. I don't care which one is the "best" or what scientific function it provides. I just do them all. If I could find an angel to kiss them I'd do that too.
    Wheelbuilder Eric (Ergott) from RBR.com came up with this beaut of a quote - "I don't care about the physics of it. What I do makes the wheels stay true for a long time."
    Method 2 above is the only step that most wheelbuilders perform. Even pro builders. I have the time to use all of the above methods which amount to maybe another five minutes in a whole wheelbuild. They give me great peace of mind that I've done everything in my knowledge and power to optimize the wheel integrity.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  8. #33
    A wheelist
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    Holy cow Lomb, you could have just given 'em the link!!
    .
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder's with motivation, information and resources.

    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  9. #34
    RoadBikeReview Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Holy cow Lomb, you could have just given 'em the link!!
    I did, but also copied and pasted the part on optimizing, since it's a small part of the whole page.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



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