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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas_Illesch View Post
    I guess the thickness of the sl23's bottom is 2mm or lower like many other of todays light aluminium clincher rims.
    So why you guys don't go up to 2.5mm or even 3mm?
    Is it for manufacturing reasons?
    Personally I wouldn't mind the weight increase of maybe 10-20 grams if I can avoid tinkering with washers.
    The SL23 would still be a nice rim with an outstanding cross section and less than 500 grams.
    Washers aren't very difficult to use, and they really do increase the durability of the rim, imo. [Whereas] a 2.5mm - 3.0mm spoke bed thickness would result in much more than a 10-20g weight increase.

    Once you break 450g, you're talking about a different "class" of rim. I have nothing against heavier rims, but that's not the market we are pursuing at the moment. Maybe next year....

    Cheers,
    KP
    Last edited by Kirk Pacenti; 04-02-2014 at 11:20 AM.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Pacenti View Post
    Washers - a 10-20g weight increase.
    My nipple washers weighed 9 grams total - for 52. 4g front, 5g rear.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    My nipple washers weighed 9 grams total - for 52. 4g front, 5g rear.
    Mike, I think you misread my post...

    Cheers,
    KP

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Pacenti View Post
    Mike, I think you misread my post...
    Cheers,
    KP
    I think one would have to read both Andreas' post and your post to get the proper context of what you meant. I didn't read both of them.
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  5. #30
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    KP: Appreciate the reply. Consistent with what a wheelbuilder for whom I have considerable respect also indicated.

    With less than 25 failures in 10K rims, I can see how you may not have enough data to know what lacing might impact failures.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    It appears that accurately determining the applied spoke tension to this rim is paramount because the threshold seems to hover around the 120-125 kgf mark.
    I doubt it. Probably a much wider range depending on how the wheel is built and used. These rims are quite light for their size, so they are not going to be forgiving.

    When you stress-relieve a wheel, the rim gets it as well as the spokes, hub, and nipples.

    Plus, a big part of the cyclic loading on the DS can be torque... mostly from climbing hard in low gears.

    Also, I always chamfer the nipple seats. Can't prove it helps, but couldn't hurt.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rruff View Post
    I doubt it. Probably a much wider range depending on how the wheel is built and used. These rims are quite light for their size, so they are not going to be forgiving.

    When you stress-relieve a wheel, the rim gets it as well as the spokes, hub, and nipples.

    Plus, a big part of the cyclic loading on the DS can be torque... mostly from climbing hard in low gears.

    Also, I always chamfer the nipple seats. Can't prove it helps, but couldn't hurt.
    You are taking away some rim material when are chamfer them correct? I understand it helps the nipple seat better but I would think washers would be better and add more durability to the rim.
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  8. #33
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    It is a tiny bit of material... definitely not enough to hurt the strength, and it reduces the stress riser where the nipple meets the rim.

    When I tried washers on a Stan's 340, they made the sidewalls bulge around the hole... there wasn't enough room for the nipple and two thicknesses of washer. That probably isn't an issue with the Pacenti rim though.

  9. #34
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    I get a little bit of bulging from the nipples now, might be a tight fit with the washers.

  10. #35
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    Which washers do you use?

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rruff View Post
    Which washers do you use?
    I haven't used any with the Pacenti rims, but if I do, I would be trying these...


    Round PolyAx (HM) Washers (20 pieces)

  12. #37
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    Just got my replacement rim from FWB (great customer service). I bought both the round and oval washers and will see how both sit in the rim. After I rebuild it I will try to update this with my impressions of both.
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  13. #38
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    Please do.

  14. #39
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    May be a simpleton question, but if you use nipple washers on these, do you have to change the spoke length to compensate?

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by zucchiniboy View Post
    May be a simpleton question, but if you use nipple washers on these, do you have to change the spoke length to compensate?
    Maybe. If spokes are being ordered I think the thickness of the washer should be accounted for (I added washers to my two dummy ERD measuring spokes). If the spokes are existing, then it depends on whether there is sufficient extra length. The thickness of my washers is in one of my earlier posts I think.
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  16. #41
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    Rebuilt the wheel today. The oval washers had a hard time trying to fit through the hole. Probably could of forced them in but didn't want them to get stuck in there. You could enlarge the hole just a little and they would fit. I went with the circular washers on the DS. Tensioning the DS was easier with them also, less spoke windup. They add a little bit more surface area, the oval ones would add a lot more surface area though but would require more work and be careful not to lose a washer in the rim it would suck trying to fish it out. Tensioned DS up to ~120. We will see if the washers and less tension help.
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  17. #42
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    Re: Pacenti rim cracks

    Quote Originally Posted by jmorgan View Post
    Just looked over my wheel to check everything and make sure it was all good and found some cracks. Here is the worst one. Notes from when I built the wheel have this one at 15 (131Kgf) on a park meter. Cracks are on the DS. Rim has a couple thousand miles maybe 4kish. These were some of the first rims released and got them from Fairwheelbikes.

    Anyone else have this happen?

    Attachment 293746
    I had this exact thing happen to me last week.

    Got home from a long ride and wheel seemed out of true. Figured I would fix it when I got back from vacation. So got it up on the stand and did a quarter turn tighten on two spokes and on the third, there was that.

    Its Easter so I will ride the beater bike I guess and leave work early to get to the shop tomorrow night.

    Not sure what would have caused this. Wheels are less than a year old and just had them trued and whole bike tuned up about a month ago.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmorgan View Post
    Rebuilt the wheel today. The oval washers had a hard time trying to fit through the hole. Probably could of forced them in but didn't want them to get stuck in there. You could enlarge the hole just a little and they would fit. I went with the circular washers on the DS. Tensioning the DS was easier with them also, less spoke windup. They add a little bit more surface area, the oval ones would add a lot more surface area though but would require more work and be careful not to lose a washer in the rim it would suck trying to fish it out. Tensioned DS up to ~120. We will see if the washers and less tension help.

    Did you get any noticable bulging in the spoke bed with the washers?

  19. #44
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    By the way, what did it take to repair this? Hoping I am still under warranty but.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJBiker72 View Post
    By the way, what did it take to repair this? Hoping I am still under warranty but.
    I took the wheel apart and sent the rim into FWB (where I bought it with the invoice and return for warranty) they sent me a new one. I built the wheel back up with my old spokes, new nipples and washers on DS.


    Tried this trick to rebuild the rear and it worked well.
    Wheel Building Tip No. 6 - Build Rears from Right to Left - Wheel Fanatyk
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch562 View Post
    Did you get any noticeable bulging in the spoke bed with the washers?
    No, no bulging. The round washers are just a little wider than the nipple. I think the washer sits (interface with the rim) a little better in the rim than just the nipple. Also my rim was center drilled so I think It might help provide a wider area that is in contact with the rim.

    No reason not to use washers on the DS.
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  22. #47
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    Re: Pacenti rim cracks

    Quote Originally Posted by jmorgan View Post
    I took the wheel apart and sent the rim into FWB (where I bought it with the invoice and return for warranty) they sent me a new one. I built the wheel back up with my old spokes, new nipples and washers on DS.


    Tried this trick to rebuild the rear and it worked well.
    Wheel Building Tip No. 6 - Build Rears from Right to Left - Wheel Fanatyk
    Thanks. I am hoping it is still under warranty. I think it is just under 1 year. Funny thing is I have not beaten it up much recently. Hit a huge pothole a month after getting it and took it in to get checked. It was fine. Just had the whole bike tuned/trued maybe a month ago too. Plenty of care given but wheels were fine. Not sure what could have caused this.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Pacenti View Post
    In my opinion, 175-180 is the limit for any 24h rear wheel.

    We have had too few failures to draw any meaningful conclusions about lacing patterns as they might relate to rim failures.

    Cheers,
    KP
    I never can understand why heavy riders choose low spoke wheels
    I'm well over 200 and don't go below 32.
    one nation, under surveillance with liberty and justice for few

    still not figgering on biggering

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by atpjunkie View Post
    I never can understand why heavy riders choose low spoke wheels
    I'm well over 200 and don't go below 32.
    I agree but it is really what everyone sells. I am 175 and went with 28.

  25. #50
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    Oh yea and the washers made my spoke length right on. Calculated 281.3 (old) +.7 for washers to 282 (new) (which is what I was using anyways, CX-Ray tend to come in even #'s).

    Also tried out Rock N Roll nipple cream (was going to use it on the NDS only) but didn't like it overall. I used only motor oil as lube on the wheel the first time and never had issues so I ended up just using motor oil again. If built right there shouldn't be any issues, the CK hubs might help with providing enough tension so depending on the whole setup of the wheel.

    Forgot how much a difference wheels and tires can make.

    Went back to stock wheels for 2 weeks, Fulcrum 5 with vittoria rubino tires and butyl tubes. First ride back on the Pacenti, CK, Michelin Pro 4 and latex tubes. Ride is night and day difference and much more pleasant. These wheels ride so much better, I would recommend these to anyone and if you need to save some money, get some WI hubs or BHS hubs.
    Last edited by jmorgan; 04-21-2014 at 01:13 PM.
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