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  1. #1
    jta
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    Is it possible to lace a Dura Ace 9000 C24 rear rim to a Phil Wood Hub?

    I'm considering repurposing a very lightly used Dura Ace c24 9000 wheelset for use on a Cinelli Pista (to be ridden as a single speed road bike). The front wheel can be mounted as is with the QR skewer. The rear wheel will need a single speed fixed/free hub. The only good rear hub that I can find drilled for 20 spokes is a custom drilled Phil Wood rear hub, which I think would pair up nicely with the Dura Ace rim.

    Is it possible to lace a Phil Wood hub to an asymmetrically drilled rim like the DA C24? It would obviously require dishing the wheel properly. If it is possible, high or low flange model? Front and rear brakes will be used if that makes a difference.

    I know this is a non-conventional set-up, but I'm not a powerful rider nor very heavy at about 160 lbs., so I'm not concerned about the 20H drilling for a single speed rear wheel.

    The bike would be used for short to medium rides up to 50-60 miles.

    Any thoughts? Thanks.

  2. #2
    jta
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    Just got off the phone with a local wheel builder in Brooklyn, NY. Apparently, this can be done with no problem.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by jta View Post
    I'm considering repurposing a very lightly used Dura Ace c24 9000 wheelset for use on a Cinelli Pista (to be ridden as a single speed road bike). The front wheel can be mounted as is with the QR skewer. The rear wheel will need a single speed fixed/free hub. The only good rear hub that I can find drilled for 20 spokes is a custom drilled Phil Wood rear hub, which I think would pair up nicely with the Dura Ace rim.

    Is it possible to lace a Phil Wood hub to an asymmetrically drilled rim like the DA C24? It would obviously require dishing the wheel properly. If it is possible, high or low flange model? Front and rear brakes will be used if that makes a difference.

    I know this is a non-conventional set-up, but I'm not a powerful rider nor very heavy at about 160 lbs., so I'm not concerned about the 20H drilling for a single speed rear wheel.

    The bike would be used for short to medium rides up to 50-60 miles.

    Any thoughts? Thanks.

    Every wheel requires the rim to be centered properly. It's no different w/ an asymmetric rim.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by jta View Post
    Just got off the phone with a local wheel builder in Brooklyn, NY. Apparently, this can be done with no problem.
    The biggest challenge will be computing the required spoke lengths, as most spoke length calculators assume a symmetric rim. If you can't find a spoke calculator that addresses asymmetric rims, then you can fake the calculators out by applying the asymmetric rim offsets to the hub flange offsets (effectively shifting both hub flanges to the DS by the effective rim offset. As a ballpark double check, an asymmetric rim will require DS spokes that are 3-5mm longer, and NDS spokes that are few mm shorter than what would be required for a symmetric rim.

  5. #5
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    Try a different ball park, rim offset has virtually no effect on spoke length.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHankey View Post
    The biggest challenge will be computing the required spoke lengths, as most spoke length calculators assume a symmetric rim. If you can't find a spoke calculator that addresses asymmetric rims, then you can fake the calculators out by applying the asymmetric rim offsets to the hub flange offsets (effectively shifting both hub flanges to the DS by the effective rim offset. As a ballpark double check, an asymmetric rim will require DS spokes that are 3-5mm longer, and NDS spokes that are few mm shorter than what would be required for a symmetric rim.
    Wrong. You're wayyyy off with that guess. Flange diameter and center to flange makes a difference, the rim...not so much.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Wrong. You're wayyyy off with that guess. Flange diameter and center to flange makes a difference, the rim...not so much.
    Agreed that my seat of the pants was off a bit this morning prior to my first coffee on just how much a spoke size difference an asymmetrical rim makes. My post coffee seat of the pants was a bit closer. To be sure, I just ran the math on a few examples, and the spoke lengths will change +/- 1 or 2mm depending on rim offset and hub/spoke geometries. I've dealt with some wide non-road bike rims, where the offset is quite a bit more material. I don't normally sweat 1-2mm variance in spoke lengths from the theoretical lengths I've computed. But if you choose not to account for the real, albeit small variance, and end up grabbing a set of spokes that are at the edge of being acceptably sized, then you may have an avoidable problem.

    "Wrong" is a bit over the top. There was nothing "wrong" with providing a fairly quick and easy way to compute the theoretical spoke lengths for asymmetrical rims so there are no surprises should one need to round up/down when buying stock sized spokes. And if I'm rolling my own spokes, I'd rather roll them to the correct theoretical length, accounting for everything.

    It's far less "wrong" than you telling someone a week or so ago to cut Italian threads in a stripped English threaded BB, especially when most better shops readily know of the far better BB repair that's been around for 20-25 years by Mavic, and subsequently other vendors. I didn't see you taking back that poor advise.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHankey View Post
    Agreed that my seat of the pants was off a bit this morning prior to my first coffee on just how much a spoke size difference an asymmetrical rim makes. My post coffee seat of the pants was a bit closer. To be sure, I just ran the math on a few examples, and the spoke lengths will change +/- 1 or 2mm depending on rim offset and hub/spoke geometries. I've dealt with some wide non-road bike rims, where the offset is quite a bit more material. I don't normally sweat 1-2mm variance in spoke lengths from the theoretical lengths I've computed. But if you choose not to account for the real, albeit small variance, and end up grabbing a set of spokes that are at the edge of being acceptably sized, then you may have an avoidable problem.

    "Wrong" is a bit over the top. There was nothing "wrong" with providing a fairly quick and easy way to compute the theoretical spoke lengths for asymmetrical rims so there are no surprises should one need to round up/down when buying stock sized spokes. And if I'm rolling my own spokes, I'd rather roll them to the correct theoretical length, accounting for everything.

    It's far less "wrong" than you telling someone a week or so ago to cut Italian threads in a stripped English threaded BB, especially when most better shops readily know of the far better BB repair that's been around for 20-25 years by Mavic, and subsequently other vendors. I didn't see you taking back that poor advise.
    I never advised anyone to do that, I said it was sorta possible. As for the Mavic bb...call 10 shops and get back to me w/ how many have heard of it much have the ability to install one.
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  9. #9
    jta
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    Thanks for the feedback – I will have the builder calculate length and order spokes once I drop off the hub and rim. (I spec’d Sapim CX Rays and will leave the technical details to the expert.)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHankey View Post
    Agreed that my seat of the pants was off a bit this morning prior to my first coffee on just how much a spoke size difference an asymmetrical rim makes. My post coffee seat of the pants was a bit closer. To be sure, I just ran the math on a few examples, and the spoke lengths will change +/- 1 or 2mm depending on rim offset and hub/spoke geometries. ......
    With the C24 rim and the Phil Wood hub spoke lengths change -0.3mm NDS and +0.2mm DS.

  11. #11
    jta
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Every wheel requires the rim to be centered properly. It's no different w/ an asymmetric rim.
    After examining the rim, I realize that not only are the spoke holes asymmetrical, the entire rim is. Should the drive side of the rim have the spokes laced at the shallower or steeper angle? I assume that it should be shallower, but would like to confirm. (I will only be using the freewheel side of the hub, so I figure I should lace the rim accordingly.)

    It lead to an interesting conversation with the wheelbuilder, who said he would do some research on the subject.

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