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  1. #1
    RoadBikeReview Member
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    STRONGEST SPOKE PATTERN? and number of spokes?

    ok it was just my assumption that more the pokes the stronger..... a buddy of mine informed me that was not the case.... and that a 32 spoke wheel laced up in a certain pattern is stronger than a 36? or even a 40?

    can someone please inform me on wheel building strength...
    also which spokes shape brand etc..will make it strong as well.. and im sure brass nipples

    im going for the strongest wheel i can build for a track rear... thanks..
    LOOK / CERVELO / BRIDGESTONE / TREK / BMC / COLNAGO

  2. #2
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    32 3x(each spoke crosses 3 others) would probably beat a 36er spoked radially or 2x, all other things being equal. This is prolly a dumb example, as most any 36 spoker I've seen is done 3x. If you're building a track rear wheel, it's already gonna be stronger than a comparable 9 or 10 speed rear, as you don't have to dish the wheel at all to accomodate a gear cluster. 32 spokes, 3x, no dish, is plenty strong enough, assuming the wheelbuilder knows what they're doing. DT spokes, butted say 14/15 are plenty strong. I don't know about track wheels; maybe they've got special needs.

  3. #3
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    well ok i take that back.. less track needs.. more urban abuse... commuter.. bumps.. terrain.. tricks.. anything i can throw at it.. is the need for strength..


    thanks!
    LOOK / CERVELO / BRIDGESTONE / TREK / BMC / COLNAGO

  4. #4
    Old and Fixed, Moderator
    Reputation: Dave Hickey's Avatar
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    Are you using Deep V's? Rims are going to be more important than whether you use 32 or 36 spokes
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

  5. #5
    RoadBikeReview Member
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    rims still looking around... no i wasnt really planning on using deep vs.. but they do have that "look" to them...

    i will also take suggestions on rims and hubs while im at it... please keep price into consideration... as much as i would like a dream wheel .. a reasonably priced super strong wheel is what im going for!
    LOOK / CERVELO / BRIDGESTONE / TREK / BMC / COLNAGO

  6. #6
    wheelbuilder
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    The differences between 32-40 spoke patterns is small compared to the differences in build quality and components. I will assume for a moment that you have the quality of the build down.

    36 spokes
    beefy rim (someone mentioned the DeepV)
    High flange track style hubs
    Quality spokes and nipples (DT, Sapim, Wheelsmith to name a few)
    4 cross pattern

    That should do the trick without knowing anymore of the particulars. 36/4 cross has some overlap with smaller flanges, so go 3 cross if that's the case.

    -Eric

  7. #7
    Old and Fixed, Moderator
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    Ebay is filled with 32 hole Deep V's laced to Formula hubs... A strong bullet proof wheel.

    IRO Cycles also sells a version. You can get a set for around $200
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

  8. #8
    wheelbuilder
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    These are good budget hubs
    http://www.irofixedgear.com/index.as...ATS&Category=9

    They also happen to make whole wheels too.

    -ERic

  9. #9
    Old and Fixed, Moderator
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    +1....I own two sets of their wheels and 3 pairs of their hubs...
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

  10. #10
    RoadBikeReview Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedips
    ok it was just my assumption that more the pokes the stronger..... a buddy of mine informed me that was not the case.... and that a 32 spoke wheel laced up in a certain pattern is stronger than a 36? or even a 40?
    Your buddy is misinformed (or just making things up). This subject has been studied and tested by Dr. Henri Gavin, a professor at Duke University, who found that spoke pattern (number of crossings) makes no difference in wheel durability (fatigue resistance): Bicycle Wheel Spoke Patterns and Spoke Fatigue

    Quote Originally Posted by thedips
    can someone please inform me on wheel building strength...
    also which spokes shape brand etc..will make it strong as well.. and im sure brass nipples
    The largest factor in wheel strength, stiffness, durability is the rim. For stiffness, hub flanging spacing is the next most important variable. Spokes have a lesser affect on both strength and stiffness, although they can affect durability.

    In general:

    For greater stiffness, use more and thicker spokes.

    For greater durability, use more and more highly butted spokes.

    Aluminum nipples are more than strong enough for just about any wheel, but they are more prone to corrosion, and so brass nipples give greater durability.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedips
    im going for the strongest wheel i can build for a track rear... thanks..
    Then use 36 spokes with a deep rim. A 36 spoke wheel with a Velocity Deep-V rim is sturdy enough even for use on tandems.

  11. #11
    RoadBikeReview Member
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    This should do it
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedips
    im going for the strongest wheel i can build for a track rear... thanks..
    Just wondering... why? Track wheels have an easy life compared to most riding, so extreme strength is not necessary.

  13. #13
    Unapologetic bike wh*re
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    Track wheels are zero dish which makes for a much stronger wheel, they don't have to carry anything more than their rider, and velodromes don't; have potholes or bumps.

    I have two rear wheels for my Trek 750 touring bike... one a 36 by 3 spoke pattern on a Sansin hub and Ambrosio wheel (light and fast) while the other is a 40 by 4 on a Ukai wheel and Suzue sealed hub (my bombproof touring wheel).

    And these are nukeproof...

    My 1955 Lenton runs a flip flop rear hub (zero dish) and and the wheels are vintage Dunlop EA1's (lightweight steel) which are 26 inch and use a 40 by 3 spoke pattern.

  14. #14
    RoadBikeReview Member
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    Strongest spoke pattern is probably a Tri specific 3 spoke carbon fibre tubular wheel.
    With a conventional wheel I would assume the greater number of spokes the stronger the wheel is. That way stress is distributed over more spokes.

  15. #15
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    One would think that more spokes would be stronger,,, but The moe spokes you have, the more holes you have to put in the rim... Swiss-cheez any hunk of metal, and what happens? it gets weaker, and weaker....
    Yes, to a point more is stonger, but eventualy you reach a point of diminishing returns...
    This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Timothy 1:15)

    You can't spell Christmas, without Christ...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visitor302
    One would think that more spokes would be stronger,,, but The moe spokes you have, the more holes you have to put in the rim... Swiss-cheez any hunk of metal, and what happens? it gets weaker, and weaker....
    Yes, to a point more is stonger, but eventualy you reach a point of diminishing returns...
    Right, but the majority of wheel sets out there range between 12 spokes (Usually laced radially) to 36 spokes (laced 3 cross or more).

    I would hazard a guess that a 36 spoke wheel would be more durable, could take more impact energy, Have less spoke windup under a sprint, have less lateral defection going around corners... than say a 12 spoke radially laced wheel.

  17. #17
    wheelbuilder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver
    Track wheels are zero dish which makes for a much stronger wheel, they don't have to carry anything more than their rider, and velodromes don't; have potholes or bumps.

    I have two rear wheels for my Trek 750 touring bike... one a 36 by 3 spoke pattern on a Sansin hub and Ambrosio wheel (light and fast) while the other is a 40 by 4 on a Ukai wheel and Suzue sealed hub (my bombproof touring wheel).

    And these are nukeproof...

    My 1955 Lenton runs a flip flop rear hub (zero dish) and and the wheels are vintage Dunlop EA1's (lightweight steel) which are 26 inch and use a 40 by 3 spoke pattern.
    You should watch some track events. Track wheels endure very high torque loads (only disc brakes produce higher) and flying around a highly banked velodrome isn't that easy on wheels. Notice how much more stoutly built track wheels under the people that actually use track bikes for their original purpose.

    I know that the OP won't use the wheels for true track racing, but track wheels are built for a purpose and generally are much stronger than road wheels besides the dish issue.

    -Eric

  18. #18
    100% torqued
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    From the article..."The 4X wheel is most stiff to tangential
    (braking and accelerating) loads on the rim." This will also depend on the hub flange diameter and number of spokes which is not discussed.

    I read through that entire article and it was kind of muddled to me. Impact will affect a radial or 2x or 3x adversely so who cares. Forces from the rim (braking) also have the same affect on a wheel regardless of lacing. Lateral forces will fold any wheel regardless of lacing too. Where lacing is most important is the rear wheel which gets tangental forces from the chain pulling on the hub to make things go. Tangental forces are 90 degrees to the radius of the wheel. The ideal spoke positon would be 90 degrees to a radius in order to transmit all of that force to cause acceleration. 3x and 4x are both very close to 90. 4x works best with high flange hubs. Pick one, use DT or Sapim spokes. Both are great. I like 14/15/14 butted. They flex in the middle of the spoke and don't stress the sharp bend of the elbow which will fail most often. Use brass nips. Pick a good rim. Velocity, Mavic, DT or another. More rim material will be stiffer and stronger. less is ligher and flexier. Deep V's are the beefiest performance rims on the market. Velocity Fusions and CXP 33 by mavic are nice too. You can lace the front radial or 2x or 3x. I'd build up 32 rear 3x, and front 24 or 28 2x or radial. The thing about radial is that a hub needs to be designed for it. Check with the hub manufacturer.

    Last thought is that 24 and 28 spoke wheels don't or can't lace easily 3x and won't 4x build enough wheels and this stuff gets clearer. 32 won't lace 4x in most cases either.

    The best thing about track wheels is symmetry. Rear road wheels are different and mixing lacing patterns can improve things.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergott
    You should watch some track events. Track wheels endure very high torque loads (only disc brakes produce higher) and flying around a highly banked velodrome isn't that easy on wheels.
    Since the torque load is inversely proportional to the gear ratio, MTBs put much more torque into the wheel. For instance, for the same crank torque applied to a 24/34 (.75) gear will have 4.4 times as much torque at the hub as a 50/15 (3.33) ratio. Track riders seem to favor stiff bikes though, so I can see it from that angle... but a better bracing angle should be the best way to achieve that with a spoked wheel.

  20. #20
    XXL Clydesdale
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    I hope this helps:

    I'm 260lbs. I just started commuting on my 2006 Fuji Team with a set of Neuvation M28 Aero wheels (with ceramic bearings). I haven't noticed any flex at all, and they're still in true after well over 150mi (so far!). Now, that's not a lot of miles for a test, but damn, TWO HUNDRED SIXTY POUNDS!? That's like 85# over the "bike standard!" I previously used 34 spoke Mavic Open Pros, but these are stiffer, IMHO. I'm VERY impressed with them.
    John

    2006 Fuji Team
    105/Ultegra 10sp | Specialized Alias 155 Saddle | Keo Sprints | Neuvation M28 Aero2 Wheels | Easton EC70 Bar | Garmin Edge 305

  21. #21
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    Track bikes and wheel torque

    Quote Originally Posted by ergott
    You should watch some track events. Track wheels endure very high torque loads (only disc brakes produce higher) and flying around a highly banked velodrome isn't that easy on wheels. Notice how much more stoutly built track wheels under the people that actually use track bikes for their original purpose.
    Cyclists frequently like to believe that the forces from pedaling strain the wheels, as if they could rip apart a wheel with drive torque. But that just isn't the reality. The largest stress on a wheel is simply from bearing the rider's weight (which can be multiplied when riding over bumps and rough pavement). A 250 lb. completely out of shape couch-potato will put more stress on his wheels than the most fit 160 lb. professional racer, simply because the wheels have to bear more weight.

    If a track racer stresses their wheels more than a road racer, it is only because track racers are larger than most road racers (often 200+ for a track racer). It is primarily the size of the track racer, not their sheer power, that creates more wheel stress.

    As rruff says, the very low gears on MTBs makes it easier to generate higher torques than on track bikes. The maximum torque a wheel will endure is the torque it takes to the lift the other wheel off the ground - either popping a wheelie from drive torque, or doing endo with a front disk brake. An average rider can do either one easily on an MTB.

  22. #22
    wheelbuilder
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    The reason I brought up track events is because I was talking about torque, not overall stress.

    The lower gearing of mtn bikes can definitely produce more load, but rarely is someone in the lowest cog pushing as hard as they possibly can (1500 watts or so of a standing start sprint). Lower cogs are more for spinning and reducing fatigue. If you applied the same power as a track start to the lowest gears on bikes, the front end would simply lift off the ground. I'm not talking about sustainable power, but absolute peaks.



    -Eric

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergott
    I'm not talking about sustainable power, but absolute peaks.
    I think we agree on that, but power is irrelevant... what we care about is torque at the rear hub. For the same *force* applied at the crank the MTB rider will produce 4-5 times as much torque at the hub as the track rider... *if* he is in a low gear. The lowest MTB gears are sometimes used rather forcefully in climbing situations. The limiting torque is where the rear tire spins out or a wheelie is initiated. This happens a lot on an MTB, but not a track bike.

  24. #24
    wheelbuilder
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    Yeah, I'm brain fartin' here. I know what your saying.

    -Eric

  25. #25
    Ka Mate, Ka Ora
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    The unguided missle

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