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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnardone View Post
    I am not racing and shaving a possible millisecond off of my ride does not matter to me. To me, how the ride feels is what is important.
    Having said that, Mike T, ACL - understanding and agreeing that you should ride what feels best, did those feelings of riding in cement translate into any sort of actual change in performance? Isn't that the whole purpose of the video?
    to me, the swishy feeling of low psi tire is unsettling when doing a hard sprint. You can feel the front end washing side to side, enough so to kill the confidence. And on most of my ride, there is some sprinting involved, and it really takes the fun out of sprinting. Is this counted as a part of performance?

  2. #27
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    I call it tire squirm, and it definitely affects performance. Some tires are more prone to it than others and rim width will also play a part.

    Thats why it's a good idea to put 5-10 extra psi in your rear tire for a hill climb, more weight on rear and high torque in low gear at lower cadence will cause extra squirm/ squish.

    Similarly, some sprinters will encounter this at high force accelerations and throwing weight around. Need to put in a few extra psi to stop it if it's happening.

    we put a bit more air in front tire than expected from weight distribution because downhill cornering can put very large forces on the front tire and cause it to flop, impairing handling.

    The outdoor tire tests were done below 10 mph on flagstaff mountain, grades between 7-10%. Probably the worst way to test rolling resistance and will not give useful results. What he showed is that there isn't much of a difference between tires on a hill climb.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    to me, the swishy feeling of low psi tire is unsettling when doing a hard sprint. You can feel the front end washing side to side, enough so to kill the confidence. And on most of my ride, there is some sprinting involved, and it really takes the fun out of sprinting. Is this counted as a part of performance?
    I think so. I am a firm believer in, "if you are thinking something other than where your focus needs to be, it is probably not a good thing." I am sure there is a better quote somewhere that gets across the point.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    but quality of a tire should also be more than just rolling resistance. Handling becomes very important under heavy braking too (and this is where I personally think the Conti GP4000s are crap)

    But hopefully, this debunks all the guys who say lower pressure means better rolling resistance because a softer tire is now able to conform to the road surface and roll over it easier. False. Just pump up the pressure to as much as your butt can take it. Now, I will say that pressure does have effect on bike handling, but this is another topic.
    Ditto.

    The Vreds I've been riding since I switched over from the gp 4000 crap are much much better in corners and braking. Not just a little bit, or an imaginary bit. Cornering is ridiculously better. Like on rails.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Just to chuck and anecdote about tire pressure, tire pressure variation and surface smoothness in here. It's not totally relevant to the topic but I always found the observation interesting -

    7-10 years ago I rode an indoor board track for training and I used Conti Supersonic tires inflated to 130psi. The track surface was smooth plywood. As there were almost no other variables (certainly not wind direction and surface variability anyway) it was very apparent when my tires were not pumped to 130psi. It felt like I was pedaling in cement. It's not often I didn't re-pump before every session but at the times that I did forget, it wasn't many laps before I'd be off the track and topping up the tires.

    I once switched tires to some Vreds and they were so bad, compered to my Contis, I switched them back in the track center, before 15 minutes passed. Again, it was like pedaling in cement. All subjective? Yeah maybe.
    Not subjective at all. The tires pumped up hard as rocks rolled over those boards as smooth as glass, and didn't deflect at all under heavy pedaling. Can't get any faster than that.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    to me, the swishy feeling of low psi tire is unsettling when doing a hard sprint. You can feel the front end washing side to side, enough so to kill the confidence. And on most of my ride, there is some sprinting involved, and it really takes the fun out of sprinting. Is this counted as a part of performance?
    Read the word I have bolded. Now read it again. Now re-read it.

    Feeling isn't always the same as reality. In other words, I am guessing many who are used to bouncing along with bomber pressures describe a little less pressure as feeling "squishy". Many associate this feeling with sluggishness, but in reality, you will not be going any slower.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Read the word I have bolded. Now read it again. Now re-read it.

    Feeling isn't always the same as reality. In other words, I am guessing many who are used to bouncing along with bomber pressures describe a little less pressure as feeling "squishy". Many associate this feeling with sluggishness, but in reality, you will not be going any slower.
    I tried lowering the pressure too. Up to a point it worked. It was more comfortable. Did it make me faster or slower? Not as far as I know. But beyond that point, the squishiness was real, not a feeling.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by HFroller View Post
    I tried lowering the pressure too. Up to a point it worked. It was more comfortable. Did it make me faster or slower? Not as far as I know. But beyond that point, the squishiness was real, not a feeling.
    Well, yeah, the tire pressure can be too low, but it's my understanding that the window of tire performance between to low a pressure and too high a pressure is quite large.
    Too old to ride plastic

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by HFroller View Post
    I tried lowering the pressure too. Up to a point it worked. It was more comfortable. Did it make me faster or slower? Not as far as I know. But beyond that point, the squishiness was real, not a feeling.

    Ummm, well yeah. If you lower from 100 PSI to 50 PSI, me thinks the squishiness WILL be real. If a little less is good, much less isn't necessarily better.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z'mer View Post
    I agree, but never liked the phrase suspension losses.
    You'll have to take this issue up with the entire scientific literature. It's the term that is used. Sorry.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Read the word I have bolded. Now read it again. Now re-read it.

    Feeling isn't always the same as reality. In other words, I am guessing many who are used to bouncing along with bomber pressures describe a little less pressure as feeling "squishy". Many associate this feeling with sluggishness, but in reality, you will not be going any slower.
    This cannot be emphasized enough. If I had a dollar for every time someone on this forum posted that "it feels faster" then I could keep myself in tires, chains, and cassettes with no expense. It is amazing that some folks never think that they can used a stopwatch to separate "feelings" from "reality."

    And yes, when pumping your tires hard "feels" faster then pumping them to a rational pressure will "feel" slower. But feelings are not the basis for making performance claims.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    but quality of a tire should also be more than just rolling resistance. Handling becomes very important under heavy braking too (and this is where I personally think the Conti GP4000s are crap)

    But hopefully, this debunks all the guys who say lower pressure means better rolling resistance because a softer tire is now able to conform to the road surface and roll over it easier. False. Just pump up the pressure to as much as your butt can take it. Now, I will say that pressure does have effect on bike handling, but this is another topic.
    Funny, I swear by them (the 4000s). I've been riding them for years.

    Curious: what do you prefer? Not looking for an argument, just curious.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmanthree View Post
    Funny, I swear by them (the 4000s). I've been riding them for years.

    Curious: what do you prefer? Not looking for an argument, just curious.
    I did too for years... swore by 4000s. I wouldn't consider riding on any other tire.

    Then on a whim, I tried some high-end Vreds when I saw them on sale.

    I'll never go back to 4000s, or any conti tire for that matter.

    Aside from the much stickier high-speed cornering the Vreds could do stupidly better than the 4000s... over time I noticed I was getting a lot fewer flats on the Vreds than I had on the 4000s. When I was a 4000 aficionado, I carried 2 spare tubes at all times, and used both spares on a few long rides. Now as a Vred fanboi, I carry one spare tube, and should probably check it for dry rot one of these days.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    Now as a Vred fanboi,
    Vred as in Vredestein?

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bvber View Post
    Vred as in Vredestein?
    hehe. Yes. Vredestein.

    I'm a current vred fanboi... but I'm highly critical of tire performance and wear.

    The minute I discover vreds are letting me down the way I discovered conti 4000s were letting me down... I'll won't hesitate to dump the vreds, the way I hesitated for years to dump conti 4000s because I was enamored with the lore of conti 4000s so much I couldn't imagine buying any other tire.

    Even now, here on RBR and other bike forums, conti 4000s seem to be the accepted BEST tire by so many people... even though there are many threads with pictures of conti 4000 sidewall failure, people beefing about the high price, and people asking if it's normal to have so many flats.

    Anyway, vred fanboi or not, I'm tire-agnostic now. I've learned my lesson about being too brand loyal

    Given the price of good bike tires versus how quickly they wear out... I'll dump vreds in a heartbeat if they get squirrely-slidey in corners and/or start flatting more than I've become accustomed to.

    In fact, if any of you riders on this thread have ridden vreds and have a new tire you like better, let me know.

  16. #41
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    Are you suggesting that the current Gran Prix 4000 IIs has sidewall integrity issues?

    I'd like to see some actual statistics that bare that out.

    Sure, there were some reports of damaged sidewalls on the original 4000's, but I haven't seen anything reported recently about this, and considering that the 4000 II (and 4 season) are the two most popular tires on the planet, I really don't know how you can suggest they have issues like this.

    I don't know anything about Vred's, so I obviously can't compare. I'm glad you are happy with your tire choice.

    I've got about 20k miles over the last few years on 4000II's and 4 Seasons - I've gone through quite a few of them, but none due to any kind of premature failures, and I rarely get flats of any kind.

    Any tire can suffer a sidewall cut. It happens to the best tires. Some are certainly more prone than others. I'd rank the Continental tires pretty high up on the list of durable tires - even the 4000 II race tires.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    The minute I discover vreds are letting me down the way I discovered conti 4000s were letting me down... I'll won't hesitate to dump the vreds, the way I hesitated for years to dump conti 4000s because I was enamored with the lore of conti 4000s so much I couldn't imagine buying any other tire.
    I noticed there are various models of Vred. tires so I'm wondering, which one are you comparing to Conti 4000S?

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bvber View Post
    I noticed there are various models of Vred. tires so I'm wondering, which one are you comparing to Conti 4000S?
    Various TriComp Fortezza, and one set of TriComp Slicks (no longer made). I have a set of Gran Fondo TriComp tires I picked up half price which I'm going to start riding on in a few weeks.

    They're not the cheapest tires. I wait for them to go on sale. The Gran Fondo TriComp are currently 40% off everywhere I looked this morning. Caveat: I haven't ridden the Gran Fondo TriComp yet. If they're crap and Vredestein has pooped the bed, I'll let you know.
    Last edited by SPlKE; 03-10-2017 at 03:41 AM.

  19. #44
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    Another Vred TriComp Fortezza fan here. Have nothing but good to say about them, both handling and wear. Have gotten some good prices for them at Ribble over the years.

    But as of late I've been riding a bike with 650b wheels and tires and no Vreds in the size so I went to Compass tires, and have really been happy with them. Some of the best tires I've ridden, but considering the size difference I can't really compare them to the Vreds I've been riding(Vred 700c\23 & 25mm and Compass 650b\42mm), but I put a set of Compass 700\32mm tires on my wives bike and if she has the same good luck I'll try them on my 700c bikes when the time comes.

    The smallest Compass 700c tire is 26mm. There is no flat protection and they're a mite pricey, but, in the 650b\42mm that I've been riding I have found them to be outstanding. I mentioned no flat protection, but that has not been an issue in the 42mm tires. I don't know how that will translate to my wives 700\32mm or the 700\26 or 28mm that I would have to use on my bikes that are currently shod in the Vreds, but I have high hopes.

    https://www.compasscycle.com/product...ts/tires/700c/
    Too old to ride plastic

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPlKE View Post
    The minute I discover vreds are letting me down the way I discovered conti 4000s were letting me down... I'll won't hesitate to dump the vreds, the way I hesitated for years to dump conti 4000s because I was enamored with the lore of conti 4000s so much I couldn't imagine buying any other tire.

    This is pretty much the way I am. Right now, I am a Maxxis Re-Fuse fanboi. They are around $35 and I average about one flat per year which is around 3K miles for me. When I do get a flat, I can trace it to either user error or an object that would have punctured the most bulletproof tire you could think of.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    This is pretty much the way I am. Right now, I am a Maxxis Re-Fuse fanboi. They are around $35 and I average about one flat per year which is around 3K miles for me. When I do get a flat, I can trace it to either user error or an object that would have punctured the most bulletproof tire you could think of.
    I get that everyone has different priorities but I consider the occasional flat to be part of the sport and don't like trading hundreds of hours of ride quality to avoid maybe a total of 30 min. on the side of the road changing flats.

    I get it for commuting but for performance riding I just can't understand the high degree of importance placed on a few less flats.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    I get that everyone has different priorities but I consider the occasional flat to be part of the sport and don't like trading hundreds of hours of ride quality to avoid maybe a total of 30 min. on the side of the road changing flats.

    I get it for commuting but for performance riding I just can't understand the high degree of importance placed on a few less flats.
    We agree to disagree. That's what makes the world go round.

    The way I look at it, I am willing to pedal a little harder or go a little slower for the convenience of not having to stop and change flats. Changing a flat in colder weather or on an after work ride when you're racing to get home before dark really sucks.

    And the harsher ride of a less supple lower thread count tire can be countered with a little less pressure.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    And the harsher ride of a less supple lower thread count tire can be countered with a little less pressure.
    Faulty logic. Pressure can be lowered on good tires too. So harsher tires are harsher tires no matter how you slice it.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Faulty logic. Pressure can be lowered on good tires too. So harsher tires are harsher tires no matter how you slice it.

    True. But like anything else, it's a law of diminishing returns. I run 70 front/100 rear which my hands and my arse are happy with.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    We agree to disagree. That's what makes the world go round.

    The way I look at it, I am willing to pedal a little harder or go a little slower for the convenience of not having to stop and change flats. Changing a flat in colder weather or on an after work ride when you're racing to get home before dark really sucks.
    I would say the flat protection is a bigger priority for the commuters than the leisure riders. Although, I went for a leisure ride on local MUT couple of weeks ago when it was balmy 60 degrees F., despite my best effort, I was passed by a young guy wearing full kit & etc. Then about 8 miles later, I passed him. He was on the side of MUT fixing his flat. He turned his head and looked at me with a embarrassed / disappointed look on his face. I'll bet he was wishing that his tire had better puncture protection...

    I wondered what kind of tires he had on to get a flat on MUT that was recently paved and clear of broken glasses or any punctur-able debris.

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