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  1. #1
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    training on tubulars

    hi all, any non racers ride on tubulars for long group and solo rides as i have only used clinchers and want to experience lightweight rims?
    i am hesitating for fear of the labour involved in result of flatting

  2. #2
    Bianchi-Campagnolo
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    When I started I used tubulars for everything. Changing a tub on the road was not a big issue unless it was raining so that the glue did not bond.
    These days there are things like the Vittoria Pit Stop, and some riders also use flat-preventive goo of some kind in their tubs.

    Bottom line: The fear of flatting shouldn't keep you from trying.

  3. #3
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    thanx

    Quote Originally Posted by kbwh
    When I started I used tubulars for everything. Changing a tub on the road was not a big issue unless it was raining so that the glue did not bond.
    These days there are things like the Vittoria Pit Stop, and some riders also use flat-preventive goo of some kind in their tubs.

    Bottom line: The fear of flatting shouldn't keep you from trying.
    do you still train/ride on tubs?

  4. #4
    wim
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    Geezer here who only rode only tubulars for many years until I ditched them (good riddance) when good clinchers became availabe. Unless you go the goo route pointed out by kbwh, the trick to fast flat replacement is to glue your tires on the rim so you can still get them off the rim quickly. On the other hand, you don't want them to roll off in a turn, so it's a matter of getting just the right amount of bonding. FWIW, most people now glue tubulars up so tightly (especially bike shops, for understandable legal reasons) that the only way to get rolling again in a reasonable time is to use goo and reinflate.

    Don't really like to post this here, so don't sue me: for training rides, some of us used to take two strips of paper (the width of a rim strip and about two inches long) and place them between the tire and the rim, leaving about a 3" space between the strips. That gave us two separate, unglued fields at which to start pushing the flat tire off the rim with our thumbs. But really, learning to get just the right amount of bond for safety and quick replacement is the better way.

    /w
    Last edited by wim; 01-23-2011 at 09:06 AM.

  5. #5
    A wheelist
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    I used tubulars for training for years (24) and didn't have any real problems. Back then (pre-1986) there were no good light clinchers so everyone rode tubulars for racing and training. It wasn't too bad rolling one tire off and installing another one. But then along came good light clinchers, I switched and have never looked back. I now ride only top-level clinchers as life is too short to ride el-cheapo tires.
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  6. #6
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    With the good clinchers and clincher wheels out now, its stupid to do it. Save them for the race season.
    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  7. #7
    A wheelist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolhand
    With the good clinchers and clincher wheels out now, its stupid to do it. Save them for the race season.
    IMO the term "stupid" is a bit strong but I can't think of one good reason to train on clinchers. I train on an indoor board track on clinchers - maybe the #1 place to use tubulars; right up there with cx.
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  8. #8
    Bianchi-Campagnolo
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    Quote Originally Posted by tidi
    do you still train/ride on tubs?
    No/yes. I have 3 wheel sets these days:
    1) One training wheelset that's built 32x3 with Mavic Open Pro up front and CXP33 in the rear. I use standard butyl inner tubes and last years racing clinchers on these.
    2) An older set of Campagnolo Eurus clinchers for some of the racing. Fresh rubber (Michelin P3R right now) and latex tubes for these.
    3) A set of FFWD F2R-240s low profile carbon rimmed tubular wheels with Vittoria Corsa CX glued on. For racing and bling rides.
    Last edited by kbwh; 01-23-2011 at 11:09 AM.

  9. #9
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    There is a lot of talk on this post that needs to be backed up

    Clinchers ride well and will be easier to change in any circumstance - cheaper too. 90% of the time a new $5 tube and you're off. Sometimes you do get tears in sidewalls, but hasn't happened to me but every 3 years or so and the folded up bill gets me home.

    With that said, tubulars STILL ride way, way better. They corner better, and they just ride better. I'm sorry, but this IS the case even with all the advancements in clinchers. Rotational weight is still horrible weight - physics haven't changed. It's not horrible to change a tubular and with the tape they have now you can do it quickly, too. One note - the tires themselves are more expensive, but the ride is BETTER. No question.

    Yes, I train on tubulars - got me Mavic Ultimates and with the MP3 program I ride them all the time.

  10. #10
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    I rode clinchers for years and years and have recently switched almost all of my riding to tubulars. I love the feel of them so much more than clinchers. Whether they are better or worse, faster or slower, I could care less. I just like ridding tubulars. I say go for it. Don't let other's scare you away. They are easy to put on, easy to replace on the road, and you can use the "pit stop" products to control "most" flats.

    Life is short, ride great wheels


    Quote Originally Posted by tidi
    hi all, any non racers ride on tubulars for long group and solo rides as i have only used clinchers and want to experience lightweight rims?
    i am hesitating for fear of the labour involved in result of flatting

  11. #11
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    I weigh 185 lbs and would have to pump up clinchers to about 120 psi to avoid pinch flats. I ride my tubulars at 90 psi and have a much better ride without pinch flats. I did get thorn in a tire several months ago that a can of Pit Stop fixed and I am still riding on that tire.

  12. #12
    A wheelist
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwp3476
    I weigh 185 lbs and would have to pump up clinchers to about 120 psi to avoid pinch flats. .
    Good grief. You using 19mm tires? I was 200lbs (175 now) and never used more than 100lbs in 25 mm clinchers (on the road anyway) in my life. Love my Vittorias at 90psi.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronderman
    There is a lot of talk on this post that needs to be backed up

    Clinchers ride well and will be easier to change in any circumstance - cheaper too. 90% of the time a new $5 tube and you're off. Sometimes you do get tears in sidewalls, but hasn't happened to me but every 3 years or so and the folded up bill gets me home.

    With that said, tubulars STILL ride way, way better. They corner better, and they just ride better. I'm sorry, but this IS the case even with all the advancements in clinchers. Rotational weight is still horrible weight - physics haven't changed. It's not horrible to change a tubular and with the tape they have now you can do it quickly, too. One note - the tires themselves are more expensive, but the ride is BETTER. No question.
    Indeed, things need to be backed up. I suppose that you're going to tell me that because I couldn't tell the difference when switching from tubulars back to clinchers (after riding tubulars for 30 years), it must be something wrong with me. Is there any chance that the difference you are experiencing is the wheels, not the tires? I remember some guy named Erik Zabel who said he couldn't tell the difference either.

    How do you measure "way, way better"? How are you measuring "corner better"? The only time the rotating weight argument comes into play is when you're constantly accelerating and then having to brake to scrub off the speed. Otherwise, the extra energy needed to spin up a heavier wheel just means you don't slow down as fast when you coast.

    On flat roads, the weight difference is meaningless, and 300 gms saved when climbing means about 10 seconds per hour. Significant if you're racing at the top of the professional sport, otherwise not so much.

  14. #14
    wim
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronderman
    It's not horrible to change a tubular and with the tape they have now you can do it quickly, too.
    Misleading advice to someone concerned about "the labour involved in result of flatting." Some tapes used with some tires can make for an extremely difficult and lengthy removal.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by wim
    Misleading advice to someone concerned about "the labour involved in result of flatting." Some tapes used with some tires can make for an extremely difficult and lengthy removal.
    So can using Fast Tack. DAMHIK

    I've only had to call for a ride 1x in all the years I've ridden tubulars. I got a flat and the spare had a flat too! My own darn fault for not checking before I went out. This was pre-goop days. I prolly wouldn't have that issue with a can of Pit Stop with me.

    Right now, I have a pair of wheels set up for tubies. They go on the cross bike. Summer = small tubies. Cross season = big tubies. The other 5 pairs of wheels are all clincher 'cause they're just easier to live with on a daily basis.

    M
    I've moved back to NoVA. PLEASE change the weather!

  16. #16
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    Who was talking to you - not me, but now I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Irons
    Indeed, things need to be backed up. I suppose that you're going to tell me that because I couldn't tell the difference when switching from tubulars back to clinchers (after riding tubulars for 30 years), it must be something wrong with me. Is there any chance that the difference you are experiencing is the wheels, not the tires? I remember some guy named Erik Zabel who said he couldn't tell the difference either.

    How do you measure "way, way better"? How are you measuring "corner better"? The only time the rotating weight argument comes into play is when you're constantly accelerating and then having to brake to scrub off the speed. Otherwise, the extra energy needed to spin up a heavier wheel just means you don't slow down as fast when you coast.

    On flat roads, the weight difference is meaningless, and 300 gms saved when climbing means about 10 seconds per hour. Significant if you're racing at the top of the professional sport, otherwise not so much.
    I think you need to take a step back, take a deep breath and remember not EVERYTHING is about you. Man. So, with that said, I was mostly talking about using terms like "stupid" and making it seem like changing a tubular is an all day event.

    With that said, and given your post, there does need to be a response.

    You can not tell me that, say, Vittoria tubular, corners the same as a vittoria clincher. Let me tell you it even more straight - there is NOTHING you can say that's going to change my mind. Going into a corner at speed on a tubular is a big difference. Maybe you don't know how to corner, I don't know, but I'm not talking about training, I'm talking racing. Maybe if I trained 30 hours a week I'd want a clincher so I can make changes quickly, but given I ride 8 to 10 a week I'm fine on tubulars.

    Let's keep going, shall, we. I am 6'3" 185 pounds. I can ride my tubulars at under 100 PSI and get a "way better ride" - or I can ride my clinchers and get a pinch flat or pump them up to 120psi and get a way different ride.

    We got more - well, let's see, hum, same hubs, same rims - only difference is one wheel is tubular and the other is clincher - that's how I tell. Oh we're not done yet, you want 300 grams on a wheel - you take it. I will bet you dollars to donuts, I can take, say a cannondale CAAD and lighter wheels and go faster uphill than I can on a cannondale susper six with wheels that way 300 grams more. Not sure, but 300 grams on a wheel makes a heck of a difference.

    Thanks and done.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by wim
    Misleading advice to someone concerned about "the labour involved in result of flatting." Some tapes used with some tires can make for an extremely difficult and lengthy removal.
    Incorrect - they can ruin the tire, but you can easily get the tire off.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronderman
    Incorrect - they can ruin the tire, but you can easily get the tire off.
    Try that with belgian tape and glue and come back to us.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by krisdrum
    Try that with belgian tape and glue and come back to us.
    I don't "do" tape and glue, I do tape OR glue. But if I did, yes, I presume it would be hard to get off.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Irons
    Indeed, things need to be backed up. I suppose that you're going to tell me that because I couldn't tell the difference when switching from tubulars back to clinchers (after riding tubulars for 30 years), it must be something wrong with me. Is there any chance that the difference you are experiencing is the wheels, not the tires? I remember some guy named Erik Zabel who said he couldn't tell the difference either.
    While we're at it, it appears you've been using this whole Zabel thing for a long time (not as long as you've been riding, since you made note on that), but for the better part of five plus years. That's a while - not sure why someone would take such a stance on tubulars, but then people are into foot fetishes too.

    With that said, let me give you a more recent quote. It was a win in a TT by some guy named Floyd Landis. I'll let you research Floyd, but in a TT, it's all about speed - trust me on this. Here is what Floyd said;
    “I was on somebody else’s road bike with clinchers and no aero clothes. Take that f@*#ers.”

    Now, there are 3 main areas Floyd draws out - another person's bike, lack of aero clothes and having to use clinchers. Now, do you think that those three things were positives or negatives?

    You might want to update your Zabel comeback.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronderman
    I think you need to take a step back, take a deep breath and remember not EVERYTHING is about you. Man. So, with that said, I was mostly talking about using terms like "stupid" and making it seem like changing a tubular is an all day event.

    With that said, and given your post, there does need to be a response.

    You can not tell me that, say, Vittoria tubular, corners the same as a vittoria clincher. Let me tell you it even more straight - there is NOTHING you can say that's going to change my mind. Going into a corner at speed on a tubular is a big difference. Maybe you don't know how to corner, I don't know, but I'm not talking about training, I'm talking racing. Maybe if I trained 30 hours a week I'd want a clincher so I can make changes quickly, but given I ride 8 to 10 a week I'm fine on tubulars.

    Let's keep going, shall, we. I am 6'3" 185 pounds. I can ride my tubulars at under 100 PSI and get a "way better ride" - or I can ride my clinchers and get a pinch flat or pump them up to 120psi and get a way different ride.

    We got more - well, let's see, hum, same hubs, same rims - only difference is one wheel is tubular and the other is clincher - that's how I tell. Oh we're not done yet, you want 300 grams on a wheel - you take it. I will bet you dollars to donuts, I can take, say a cannondale CAAD and lighter wheels and go faster uphill than I can on a cannondale susper six with wheels that way 300 grams more. Not sure, but 300 grams on a wheel makes a heck of a difference.

    Thanks and done.
    Maybe someone else also needs to take a step back. I think the point was there is alot of opinion being slung around without much data to back it up or it is being passed off as "fact", which it pretty clearly isn't.

    As far as the 300 gr comment, I was assuming that was for the whole set, not per wheel. Are alot of you tub guys riding 500 and 600 gram rear wheels? I'm again assuming a decent clincher rear wheel is around 900-1000 grams.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by krisdrum
    Maybe someone else also needs to take a step back. I think the point was there is alot of opinion being slung around without much data to back it up or it is being passed off as "fact", which it pretty clearly isn't.

    As far as the 300 gr comment, I was assuming that was for the whole set, not per wheel. Are alot of you tub guys riding 500 and 600 gram rear wheels? I'm again assuming a decent clincher rear wheel is around 900-1000 grams.
    I took 2 steps back.

    Fact - Clincher rims require a supporting ridge - tubulars do not
    Fact - Clincher tires requires a bead to go under said ridge - tubulars do not
    Fact - Clincher tires do not sit ontop or a rim like a tubular and thus have a more pronounced curve.

    All 3 of these facts make for a heavier wheel on the outside of the wheel resulting in higher rotational weight - this is the worst weight to have. The last fact results distinct feel when going into a corner fast.

    I would contend that 300 grams make a lot of a difference - I was talking the whole wheel, too. My mavic ultimate is 1100 grams for the wheelset and I use it everyday - so yea, the rear is somewhere in the range you said. I have a lot of wheels with 400 gram difference - and you can most certainly factually tell a difference. I presume 300 grams would fall in there, too.

  23. #23
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    I don't know about training on tubulars, but talking about training on tubulars seems sure to cause a argument, everytime.

    FWIW: I raced on tubbies and clinchers never saw a huge enough difference to be swayed very far one way or another, tubbies are slightly nicer but don't make a big difference. Just to head rondermans frothing at the mought rant off, yeah I can and do corner hard tubbies don't buy you that much its mainly having good tires that you trust, glued on or not.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronderman
    I don't "do" tape and glue, I do tape OR glue. But if I did, yes, I presume it would be hard to get off.
    confirmed. For those of us who race cross, tape+glue ensures no rolled tires and low psi at high torques. However, road side removal is a *****.

    for my road tubbies ( and, yes I train on them too ), i only glue.
    blahg. have-a-snack.blogspot.com

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 32and3cross
    I don't know about training on tubulars, but talking about training on tubulars seems sure to cause a argument, everytime.

    FWIW: I raced on tubbies and clinchers never saw a huge enough difference to be swayed very far one way or another, tubbies are slightly nicer but don't make a big difference. Just to head rondermans frothing at the mought rant off, yeah I can and do corner hard tubbies don't buy you that much its mainly having good tires that you trust, glued on or not.
    This is so silly, why does this cause an argument. Whatever, it's childish. Really. And, yes, I did go over the top - but I'm sorry, "some" other people said some silly stuff that started it all and I'm jsut not one to ignore. With that said, if I am doing a 50 mile zone 3 ride with friends - there is no reason to ride tubulars. However, if I am doing a group ride, and I ride with power, but no more, and I'm going to go after any gap, then it's tubulars every time. If I want that better of a ride, for whatever reason, it's tubulars.

    Anyone who tells you otherwise, hasn't ridden them - it's that simple.

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