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  1. #1
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    Wheel building help needed

    Hi folks, I would appreciate some help from you!

    I got a set of Ritchey WCS Road Rim brake Hubs, new 'phantom flange' version, 20/24 holes. Lacing pattern, front radial, back radial/2 cross.
    The set weighs only 68+218g, and I thought that I could make a same/similar wheelset to the Zeta II wheels this hub is actually made for.

    Unfortunately there is no way that I can buy Zeta II rims (both asymmetrical), the nearest cousin seems to be DT rr411 / rr411 asymmetric.

    My actual question is - Ritchey uses 44 DT Swiss New Aero spokes, the heaviest aero spoke they make for both Zeta II and much pricier Apex wheels, and probably with a good reason.
    I have found those on special order for some 3 euro/piece, but I would rather pay a little less if that is possible.
    Alternatives are:

    - CN Aero494 as a direct substitute for New Aero only much cheaper and probably of much lesser quality

    - DT Aero Comp as a middle road version, still very sturdy but lighter and much cheaper (around 1.59 euro/piece)

    - Sapim CX-Ray - going down the lightweight route, but I am not sure if that isn't a dumb move, I weigh 85kg and the roads where I live are quite bad, I am not sure that ~1400g wheelset is a good choice for me.

    Bike is a 2015 Canyon Ultimate CF, some 6.9kg with current Ksyrium Elite S set, not used for racing, I am too old for that now, mostly climbing trainings

    What do you think guys? Thanks in advance!!!

    Wheel building help needed-wcs.jpg

  2. #2
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    I'm not really sure what the question is but, you're -

    - Old, heavy, not racing, using wheels for climbing and you're considering aero spokes? Why? How fast do you climb ?

    How about something light and relatively inexpensive - like DT Revs or Sapim Laser?
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  3. #3
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    I have built with the silver 494 and they were fine. 2:1 Woodman hub laced to 38mm carbon tubular rim built into a very stiff wheel.

    (I mention the color because I have used both silver and black CN Mac 424 spokes and I did not like the black ones. They appeared more prone to twist than their silver brothers.)

  4. #4
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    Aero spokes only because they are easier to deal with, I will personally make those, plus, if I decide that the wheels are not apropriate for me, it is a lot easier to sell the wheels with aero spokes (i know, it is stupid, but unfortunately true).

    I got the hubs really cheap, so I can invest in good rim and spokes, I am just asking, is it really a must to have 3.3mm wide aero spokes or would 2.3mm Aero Comp suffice, and be a little lighter on a plus side?

    If Ritchey puts such beefy spokes in the original wheel, maybe the hub is optimized for them in some way...


    Thanks mackers!
    Last edited by duvla; 05-27-2018 at 01:50 AM.

  5. #5
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    The RR411 is a dated rim design. The R460 is wider at about the same weight which is what I would go with.

    At 85kg (190lbs.), I would not be riding a 20/24 spoke count. A 24/28 would be a much more practical choice - less wheel flexing, fewer potential problems and negligible extra weight.

    I don't like DT hubs because of their aluminum freehub which is prone to cassette gouging. I would opt for Dura-Ace or White Industries T11 at about the same price and they both have a Ti freehub.

    I like bladed DT Aero Comp spokes because the are easy to build with. If you're not building your own wheels, I would go for DT Competitions which are a good quality butted spoke. DT Revolutions, DT Aero Lites, Sapim Lasers, or Sapim Xrays are too fragile for my taste and IMO, you're just asking for trouble.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    The RR411 is a dated rim design. The R460 is wider at about the same weight which is what I would go with.

    At 85kg (190lbs.), I would not be riding a 20/24 spoke count. A 24/28 would be a much more practical choice - less wheel flexing, fewer potential problems and negligible extra weight.
    The RR411 is a more recent design than the RR460, it is exactly as wide (18mm). You can get the 24 holes and up as an asymmetric rear, it is made of a higher quality alloy and it has a welded seam. The front wheels are ˜25-30 grams lighter, the asymmetric rims are about the same weight as an RR460.

    Taking into account that TS already has a 20/24 hole hubset he can't use the RR460 in front as it doesn't come in 20 holes and it would be silly not to take advantage of the asymmetric rear.

  7. #7
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    edit....
    Last edited by duvla; 05-28-2018 at 01:51 PM.

  8. #8
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    Where I live I can't buy HED or Kinlin, DT is the only good choice I have, and hubs are already here, so, basically the question is, if you folks were me, which spokes would you get, New Aero, Aero Comp, CN or CX-Ray?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mackers View Post
    The RR411 is a more recent design than the RR460, it is exactly as wide (18mm). You can get the 24 holes and up as an asymmetric rear, it is made of a higher quality alloy and it has a welded seam. The front wheels are ˜25-30 grams lighter, the asymmetric rims are about the same weight as an RR460.

    Taking into account that TS already has a 20/24 hole hubset he can't use the RR460 in front as it doesn't come in 20 holes and it would be silly not to take advantage of the asymmetric rear.
    My apologies. I had a brain fart and when I saw 411, I was thinking of the older 440. Yes, the 411 is a shallower version on the 460.

    Silly not to take advantage of asymmetric? Well, it will give you slightly less tension disparity, but who cares? A properly tensioned R460 will get you to 55kgF on the NDS which is plenty. As long as you have equal tensions around each side of the wheel, you will have a strong wheel.

    Sell that hub set and get one with a more appropriate spoke hole count.

    A welded seam will be theoretically stronger, but in practical reality, it doesn't make much difference.
    Last edited by Lombard; 05-29-2018 at 06:57 AM.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  10. #10
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    Well, I would definitely care if I were building a shallow aluminum rear wheel with a low spoke count and maybe you would too, if you had looked at the hub geometry. DS tension would have to be ~1600N for NDS to end up at 550N with an RR460. Using the RR411 puts DS tension right around 1200N if you want NDS tension at 550N.

    I will agree that this hubset is probably more trouble than it's worth. If I were forced to build it I would go for the asymmetric rear as well as as beefy a spoke as possible.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mackers View Post
    Well, I would definitely care if I were building a shallow aluminum rear wheel with a low spoke count and maybe you would too, if you had looked at the hub geometry. DS tension would have to be ~1600N for NDS to end up at 550N with an RR460. Using the RR411 puts DS tension right around 1200N if you want NDS tension at 550N.

    I will agree that this hubset is probably more trouble than it's worth. If I were forced to build it I would go for the asymmetric rear as well as as beefy a spoke as possible.
    The original WCS Zeta II has 130-140/80-90kgf, so probably original New Aero spokes make sense, the only question is, spend a lot of cash or buy CN spokes.

    I was inclining to Aero Comp
    Last edited by duvla; 05-28-2018 at 03:50 AM.

  12. #12
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    Get the DT Swiss New Aero spokes despite the price.

    My concern would be if the Ritchey hubs have a thicker than normal flange and the spokes may have a longer "J" bend in them to accommodate. That's why I recommend them. My other concern would be the hole size in the hub. You want a close fit and other spokes may have too much room regardless of whether they're under tension.

    Definitely go with asymmetric rear rims. One of the best ideas that's come out of the bike world. They are an improvement over standard rims. I've built many of them and they retain their true; they're a "set and forget" item. Either the DT offerings or try the Velocity A23 OC. Ritchey used to use the Velocity Aerohead OC but I don't see that offered any more.

  13. #13
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    Who has spoke length calculator for asymmetrical rim?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter P. View Post
    Get the DT Swiss New Aero spokes despite the price.

    My concern would be if the Ritchey hubs have a thicker than normal flange and the spokes may have a longer "J" bend in them to accommodate. That's why I recommend them. My other concern would be the hole size in the hub. You want a close fit and other spokes may have too much room regardless of whether they're under tension.

    Definitely go with asymmetric rear rims. One of the best ideas that's come out of the bike world. They are an improvement over standard rims. I've built many of them and they retain their true; they're a "set and forget" item. Either the DT offerings or try the Velocity A23 OC. Ritchey used to use the Velocity Aerohead OC but I don't see that offered any more.
    Thanks Mackers and Peter P., really good info!

    As for the calculator, DT values on their calculator doesn't change at all when I switch between RR 411 normal and asymmetric rim, ERD is obviously the same.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by duvla View Post
    As for the calculator, DT values on their calculator doesn't change at all when I switch between RR 411 normal and asymmetric rim, ERD is obviously the same.
    That's because the DT calculator does not recognise asymmetric rims, you have to make a manual adjustment to the input values.

    https://spokes-calculator.dtswiss.com/en/help-faq

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mackers View Post
    Well, I would definitely care if I were building a shallow aluminum rear wheel with a low spoke count and maybe you would too, if you had looked at the hub geometry. DS tension would have to be ~1600N for NDS to end up at 550N with an RR460. Using the RR411 puts DS tension right around 1200N if you want NDS tension at 550N.

    I will agree that this hubset is probably more trouble than it's worth. If I were forced to build it I would go for the asymmetric rear as well as as beefy a spoke as possible.
    All signs here point to getting different hubs.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  17. #17
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    Anyone else find that these spoke calculators, like the DT one, don't account for spoke stretch? Spoke stretch after tensioning is about 1 mm, and I had to subtract 1 mm from the length provided by the DT calculator on a recent build I did.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfdemicco View Post
    Anyone else find that these spoke calculators, like the DT one, don't account for spoke stretch? Spoke stretch after tensioning is about 1 mm, and I had to subtract 1 mm from the length provided by the DT calculator on a recent build I did.
    Roger Musson's does.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfdemicco View Post
    Anyone else find that these spoke calculators, like the DT one, don't account for spoke stretch? Spoke stretch after tensioning is about 1 mm, and I had to subtract 1 mm from the length provided by the DT calculator on a recent build I did.
    I use Roger Musson's calculator and on all three builds I did, I never had a problem with spokes bottoming out.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



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