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  1. #1
    Pathlete and Pedalphile
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    Why isn't this front wheel build working?

    Rim- DT Swiss TK540 32 hole (ERD 600)
    Hub- Circus Monkey HRW3 32 holes, 25mm flange diameter Spokes- Wheelsmith 295mm

    I wanted to throw together an inexpensive set of wheels with some parts that I had laying around. I measured my front hub with Roger Mussons wheel calculator and came up with 295.5 spoke length for 3X. I had a pack of Wheelsmith 295's and figured they should work.
    I've got 2 issues. First issue is, I got 2 sides done (16 spokes) but when I got ready to do my crossing spokes the spoke tension was so tight I couldn't turn the hub in order to cross the spokes. I did 3-4 turns on the nipples. Could the spokes being .5mm's short have caused this?

    Second issue is, with having such a small flange diameter (25mm) can 3X even be done without crossing spoke heads?
    If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

  2. #2
    RoadBikeReview Member
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    I can answer the 2nd question in that I have built a set of 32 spoke 3X wheels with Circus Monkey hubs - no problem. Building budget WW clyde clinchers - sub 1,350g, sub $400. - Weight Weenies

    I'm guessing that somewhere you messed up the spoke length calc or the ERD is off.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
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    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjulio View Post
    I can answer the 2nd question in that I have built a set of 32 spoke 3X wheels with Circus Monkey hubs - no problem. Building budget WW clyde clinchers - sub 1,350g, sub $400. - Weight Weenies

    I'm guessing that somewhere you messed up the spoke length calc or the ERD is off.
    I measured the ERD at 598, dt swiss site shows 600. I tried 2 other spoke calc sites after Rogers and they came up with the same lengths.
    By the way, nice build! Do you remember what your flange diameter and distance were? I have 25 diameter and 30 distance on mine.
    Last edited by redondoaveb; 03-13-2017 at 05:00 PM.
    If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

  4. #4
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    I come up with 294 as the length, so that's not it if your ERD is correct.

    Tighten the first 16 too much?
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjulio View Post
    I come up with 294 as the length, so that's not it if your ERD is correct.

    Tighten the first 16 too much?
    3-4 turns. That could have been too much though. Tomorrow I'll try backing them off and see what happens. The way they were I couldn't get the hub to twist at all. There was no slack.
    If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by redondoaveb View Post
    I measured the ERD at 598, dt swiss site shows 600.
    The DT-Swiss calculator usually works fine with their rims.

  7. #7
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    The hub I used was 29.5 mm PCD with 33.5 mm centre to flange.

    Running the numbers with a 600 ERD I get 295 mm spoke, same as you.

    Is it possible to screw up the initial lacing to cause the problem you have?
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  8. #8
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    3-4 turns does sound like a lot for an initial lacing. I usually do about 2. I would try backing them off first and see if things fall into place.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

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    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjulio View Post
    The hub I used was 29.5 mm PCD with 33.5 mm centre to flange.

    Running the numbers with a 600 ERD I get 295 mm spoke, same as you.

    Is it possible to screw up the initial lacing to cause the problem you have?
    Triple checked the lacing and it's correct. I'm going to back off the nipples and see what that gets me.
    If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    3-4 turns does sound like a lot for an initial lacing. I usually do about 2. I would try backing them off first and see if things fall into place.
    Yep, going to give that a try.
    If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

  11. #11
    changingleaf
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    Sometimes the nipples get caught in the rim and prevent full rotation of the hub.

    If you have it laced correct and the crossing spokes don't reach the nipples check to see if any nipples (of the first 16) are caught in the rim and preventing rotation.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by changingleaf View Post
    Sometimes the nipples get caught in the rim and prevent full rotation of the hub.

    If you have it laced correct and the crossing spokes don't reach the nipples check to see if any nipples (of the first 16) are caught in the rim and preventing rotation.

    Oh yes! This is indeed a probability. You have to work them through before you can rotate that hub.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by changingleaf View Post
    Sometimes the nipples get caught in the rim and prevent full rotation of the hub.

    If you have it laced correct and the crossing spokes don't reach the nipples check to see if any nipples (of the first 16) are caught in the rim and preventing rotation.
    This is a good suggestion, happens all the time especially on 3x builds where there's TONS of slack as you're lacing the first 1/2 of the spokes.

    Also, I hate to be Captain Obvious but have you verified that the spokes you received actually ARE 295?

  14. #14
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    Well, I re-laced it this time with the nipples just catching the threads. I could twist the hub a little bit but not enough to do the crossing spokes. With it being a front hub I can't a good grip on it to give it a good twist. It does almost feel like something is hung up but I looked and couldn't see any spokes getting caught on the inside of the rim. It almost feels like if I could get a good grip on the hub I might be able to twist it into place. Spokes have been measured and are 295's.

    Also, with the first two sides laced (16 spokes), there isn't much side to side hub play.
    If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

  15. #15
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    Are all the nipples coming through the nipple holes? None are getting hung up eh? Are you crossing the same number of spokes that you calculated for? I usually do 3-4 "twists" (not full turns) of the nipples when first installing them.
    .
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Are all the nipples coming through the nipple holes? None are getting hung up eh? Are you crossing the same number of spokes that you calculated for? I usually do 3-4 "twists" (not full turns) of the nipples when first installing them.
    Spokes are all coming through the spoke holes but on the second side after the third or fourth hole there is only about three quarters of the threads showing on the spoke I'm getting ready to thread the nipple onto. I was doing 3-4 twists, not full turns. I can't even start my crossing spokes as I can't turn the hub in order to get any crosses. The spoke would cross spoke heads and hit the hub if I even attempted to cross them. I'll try to post up some pics s little later. Any particular pics that you guys would like to see?
    If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

  17. #17
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    Triple checked the lacing and it's correct.
    I don't want to assume I know what that means. How about a picture?
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjulio View Post
    I don't want to assume I know what that means. How about a picture?
    I'm going to post some pics after while but I started the first spoke on the spoke hole just to the left on the valve stem hole. Next spoke the fourth hole over until eight spokes were laced. Flipped wheel over and dropped in next spoke just to the right of number one hole on previous side. Then did the next seven spokes the same way. Those were the first sixteen spokes.
    If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

  19. #19
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    I'm just feeling that there is something fundamentally wrong with the lacing. There should be all kinds of slack with only 1/2 the spokes in.

    Why isn't this front wheel build working?-screenshot-2017-03-14-7.55.43-pm.jpg
    Last edited by bikerjulio; 03-14-2017 at 04:12 PM.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  20. #20
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    Figured It out. The hub flange is a little thicker than the j bend of the spoke and the heads out spokes would bind on the inside of the hub when I would try to twist the hub. That's 16 spokes binding at the same time. A little bending of the spokes down by the flange and working the spoke back and forth in the flange hole and they loosened up and work fine now.
    If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

  21. #21
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    Last edited by redondoaveb; 03-16-2017 at 03:03 PM.
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  22. #22
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    Does this look correct? Thanks.
    Attachment 318341Attachment 318342Attachment 318343
    If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by redondoaveb View Post
    That's not a photo we can see...our computers can't see into your computer. You have to post the photo at a hosting site like imgur and then link to it.

    Sounds like the problem you had is not a problem any more, but the nipples catching on the rim and also having to get them fully seated in the flange are fairly common problems. Sometimes I really have to man-handle the wheel, pushing the hub back and forth while trying to get the twist right and the nipples out of the spoke holes.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    That's not a photo we can see...our computers can't see into your computer. You have to post the photo at a hosting site like imgur and then link to it.

    Sounds like the problem you had is not a problem any more, but the nipples catching on the rim and also having to get them fully seated in the flange are fairly common problems. Sometimes I really have to man-handle the wheel, pushing the hub back and forth while trying to get the twist right and the nipples out of the spoke holes.
    That's weird. I just opened this up on my phone and clicked on the attachments and they opened up.
    Yep, problem is solved. It was frustrating for a while though.
    If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by redondoaveb View Post
    That's weird. I just opened this up on my phone and clicked on the attachments and they opened up.
    Did u use the phone to take the photo's? Hello!
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