• 06-17-2011
    d1zzl3
    Finally joined the darkside and got my first road bike.
  • 06-17-2011
    AndrwSwitch
    Nice old bike. Strange choice to put Sora shifters on it. There are plenty of bonded carbon frames like that that are in kickass shape, but you might have your shop take a look at it just in case.
  • 06-17-2011
    d1zzl3
    just wondering, why is it a strange choice?
  • 06-17-2011
    AndrwSwitch
    It's not an especially well-regarded shifter, and that bike would probably have had the matching shifters. I'm not sure if Shimano 600 ever had an integrated shifter. I'd suspect probably not until it became Ultegra, but could be wrong. Anyway, it's a mismatch for the general level of the other components.
  • 06-17-2011
    Dave Hickey
    Very nice.....the 600 group is 8 speed and most likely had downtube shifters.. I'm guessing the owner probably wanted to upgrade to STI shifters and Sora was choice..

    Nothing wrong with them....enjoy the bike....you got a good deal....
  • 06-17-2011
    ProdigalCyclist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by d1zzl3 View Post
    just wondering, why is it a strange choice?

    I don't know why the other guy thought it's a strange choice but here's why I think it was.

    Sora is about 4 steps down the pecking order from Shimano Ultegra (which is what 600 is... even though that is 90's componants) The Sora is about 15 years younger than the rest of that groupo, and Sora also has the thumb levers where the Brifters that actually belong with that group have the real STI levers. (like this... http://cgi.ebay.com/SHIMANO-600-ULTE...item4cf79eab4b )

    For the record... that Ebay listing is pretty steep... I've seen the Dura Ace counterpart to that set listed at that same price and it didn't sell)

    The Sora configuration IMHO is a little less user friendly than the 600 STI that would match the rest of the groupo on that bike.

    All in all though I think you got yourself a good deal for a 600 equiped bike @ what you paid for it. I'm not sure what level of experience you are at bike maint so if you have a fair amount of skills in that area I don't want to offend you by telling you to have a shop give it a once over just to be sure about everything.

    The 90s bike will work just fine for ya though... at the very least it's a great launching point :thumbsup:
  • 06-17-2011
    ProdigalCyclist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AndrwSwitch View Post
    It's not an especially well-regarded shifter, and that bike would probably have had the matching shifters. I'm not sure if Shimano 600 ever had an integrated shifter. I'd suspect probably not until it became Ultegra, but could be wrong. Anyway, it's a mismatch for the general level of the other components.



    600 had a STI shifter I gave him a link to one that is selling on Ebay right now... the listing on Ebay is waaaay overpriced but at least he can see what they look like.
  • 06-17-2011
    BostonG
    Iíll call it the limbo bike. Itís not quite old enough to be retro but not young enough to be modern.

    Looks great. Enjoy the ride.
  • 06-17-2011
    d1zzl3
    thanks for the info everyone. I was going to buy the Vilano Forza 4.0 at roadbikeoutlet.com, but before I decided to push the purchase link I decided to check craigslist one more time and saw this.

    As for my maintenance skills its pretty novice. I will have my LBS take a look at it next Wednesday and get it tuned. The only thing I've done so far was replace the pedals, clean the chain, ring, derailers and some rust cleanup.
  • 06-17-2011
    ProdigalCyclist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by d1zzl3 View Post
    thanks for the info everyone. I was going to buy the Vilano Forza 4.0 at roadbikeoutlet.com, but before I decided to push the purchase link I decided to check craigslist one more time and saw this.

    As for my maintenance skills its pretty novice. I will have my LBS take a look at it next Wednesday and get it tuned. The only thing I've done so far was replace the pedals, clean the chain, ring, derailers and some rust cleanup.



    I think you did really well overall. For the price I think it was the way to go. So often people go all out with their first Road bike only to find out it's not for them, and then they end up with a $1500- $2000 piece of yard art in their garage.

    As for the age etc... I just recently got back in to riding and I decided to go with a bike from a similar era. Mine is also a Lugged Carbon frame and so far I have no complaints what so ever (I posted some pics of mine in the "Show me your entry level road bike" thread)

    You're wise to have a LBS check it out and tune it up for you. I did the same thing even though I used to actually be a bicycle mechanic and Cat 2 racer (that was many moons ago).

    You've already changed the pedals, I would suggest you just keep an eye out on Ebay and Craigs for the Shimano 600 (model #6400) Shift/Brake levers to match the rest of your groupo. I think you'd be more happy with those. The ones I put on my bike were the Dura Ace (model #7400) Shift/Brake levers (those are the Dura Ace equivilant for the same years) I found my set on Craigs for $113.00 (and that INCLUDED shipping, cables, and the cable stops for the downtubes) Other than that, a good seat can make a million % difference in the "coolness" in terms of the looks of your bike (and would probably be quite a bit more comfy than the one shown in the pic)

    Overall you made a solid choice... I think you'll be happy with it... and that's what really counts.
  • 06-17-2011
    PJ352
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ProdigalCyclist View Post
    600 had a STI shifter I gave him a link to one that is selling on Ebay right now... the listing on Ebay is waaaay overpriced but at least he can see what they look like.

    Actually, it didn't. Shimano's 600 group started out as a 6 speed drivetrain with d/ tube (friction) shifters, then became indexed (600EX). It then went to 7 spd and became 600 Ultegra, then had the STI option in it's 8 speed iteration (still named 600 Ultegra, but referred to as Ultegra). By 9 speed, the 600 name designation was dropped.

    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano.html#600
  • 06-17-2011
    PJ352
    I always say if the bike fits and you enjoy riding it, you got a good deal. :thumbsup:

    FWIW, I disagree with those finding fault with the Sora shifters. Once set up/ tuned properly, they'll perform well and prove to be durable. IMO the biggest drawback is that you need to have your hands positioned on the hoods to employ the thumb tabs, but that's where many riders (especially noobs) normally place their hands when crusing.

    One word of caution re: the frame. With any mixed materials frame (with bonded CF tubes to alu lugs) it's wise to have someone experienced periodically check the areas for weakness/ signs of bonding failure. It doesn't happen so much with the current crop of bikes, but in years past there have been some problems.
  • 06-17-2011
    ProdigalCyclist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PJ352 View Post
    Actually, it didn't. Shimano's 600 group started out as a 6 speed drivetrain with d/ tube (friction) shifters, then became indexed (600EX). It then went to 7 spd and became 600 Ultegra, then had the STI option in it's 8 speed iteration (still named 600 Ultegra, but referred to as Ultegra). By 9 speed, the 600 name designation was dropped.

    https://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano.html#600



    Actually yes it did... and here's a picture

    https://i758.photobucket.com/albums/...nst/600STI.jpg


    At that time Shimano went through a lot of variations with in the same model run. That's why in Dura Ace you have the 7400, 7403 and 7410 Models that were all being manufactured at roughly the same time. This was also the time that the STI was just coming out. Shimano 600 was actually the model name of Shimano's second tier component at the time that STI was origionally released. AND THEN 600 went to the designation of Ultegra.

    I know for a fact that 600 had STI... the picture is above.... AND I had friends that used it. (back then)
  • 06-17-2011
    PJ352
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ProdigalCyclist View Post
    Actually yes it did... and here's a picture

    https://i758.photobucket.com/albums/...nst/600STI.jpg


    At that time Shimano went through a lot of variations with in the same model run. That's why in Dura Ace you have the 7400, 7403 and 7410 Models that were all being manufactured at roughly the same time. This was also the time that the STI was just coming out. Shimano 600 was actually the model name of Shimano's second tier component at the time that STI was origionally released. AND THEN 600 went to the designation of Ultegra.

    I know for a fact that 600 had STI... the picture is above.... AND I had friends that used it. (back then)

    My point was simply that when it was designated only as a 600 group, it didn't have an STI option. By the time 600 Ultegra was introduced (along with 8 speed) it did.

    If you want to prove that statement wrong, you'll have to post some pics of 6 or 7 speed STI shifters, and I know you can't. The pic you posted has a 600 designation on the face, but the group was 600 Ultegra (8 spd).
  • 06-17-2011
    ProdigalCyclist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PJ352 View Post
    My point was simply that when it was designated only as a 600 group, it didn't have an STI option. By the time 600 Ultegra was introduced (along with 8 speed) it did.

    If you want to prove that statement wrong, you'll have to post some pics of 6 or 7 speed STI shifters, and I know you can't. The pic you posted has a 600 designation on the face, but the group was 600 Ultegra (8 spd).




    And now we're in a battle of scemantics that doesn't make sense, because what you are referring to doesn't apply, because the bike we are talking about is 8 speed... and the groupo on the bike comes from the same model run that those 600 shifters came from.

    At the time that STI came out you still had a choice... you could get the regular 600 groupo (with downtube shifters) or you could get the STI Groupo. The same applied to the Dura Ace groupo... the 105 SC didn't have an STI option.
  • 06-17-2011
    Dave Hickey
    As I mentioned above there is nothing wrong with Sora.....New Sora shifters vs early 90's 600 shifters of unknown mileage and care.......I'd take new Sora....

    Remember when you read forums like RBR, we tend to be snobs....It's the same in photography forums and audio forums.....There is high end and there is perfectly acceptable for the vast majority of people... there isn't a minimally acceptable road group.

    There are plenty of riders that ride thousands of miles per year on Sora, Tiagra and 2300....The groups perform just fine.....

    If you enjoy this sport and want to continue, think about upgrading.... but having Sora on a bike isn't going to diminish your riding experience

    Personally I love the bike you bought,.....I have a couple of carbon tubed, aluminum lugged bikes and love them
  • 06-17-2011
    PJ352
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ProdigalCyclist View Post
    And now we're in a battle of scemantics that doesn't make sense, because what you are referring to doesn't apply, because the bike we are talking about is 8 speed... and the groupo on the bike comes from the same model run that those 600 shifters came from.

    At the time that STI came out you still had a choice... you could get the regular 600 groupo (with downtube shifters) or you could get the STI Groupo. The same applied to the Dura Ace groupo... the 105 SC didn't have an STI option.

    You're glossing over the fact that 8 speed STI's only work on 8 speed drivetrains, which (at the time) were 600 Ultegra, not 600. 600 groupsets only came in 6 & 7 speed iterations.

    So, again I say, show me 6/7 speed sTI's and you'll prove me wrong.
  • 06-17-2011
    PJ352
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dave Hickey View Post
    As I mentioned above there is nothing wrong with Sora.....New Sora shifters vs early 90's 600 shifters of unknown mileage and care.......I'd take new Sora....

    +1 to that! :thumbsup:
  • 06-17-2011
    stover
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by d1zzl3 View Post
    Saw this on craigslist for $300. It's a Univega R7.6 Carbolite. What do you guys think? :)

    I'm thinking you got a good deal. nice bike for 300.
  • 06-17-2011
    ProdigalCyclist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PJ352 View Post
    You're glossing over the fact that 8 speed STI's only work on 8 speed drivetrains, which (at the time) were 600 Ultegra, not 600. 600 groupsets only came in 6 & 7 speed iterations.

    So, again I say, show me 6/7 speed sTI's and you'll prove me wrong.


    Actually no... I'm not glossing over anything. You said (at the begining of this dicussion) that 600 did not have STI. And it clearly did. When I showed you a picture of 600 STI you side stepped by saying well that's 600 Ultegra not 600. But if you'll look back at previous posts in THIS thread I even said that 600 is what Ultegra actually is... and that is true... in the way that it applies to THIS bike (and the groupo on it) which is what we're talking about.

    At the point in time we are talking about 600 is Ultegra and Ultegra is 600 Because the ACTUAL moniker from Shimano (at the time) was Shimano 600 Ultegra and the model number for it was 6400.

    The proper name of the second tier of Shimano components was Shimano 600 Ultegra up UNTIL the 9 speed Ultegra came out... Sheldon Brown even says that in the line you quoted.

    What you are doing is arguing nomeclature... but at the time that this groupo was out it was still refferred to as Shimano 600 by me, all the riders I associated with, and in the bike shop I worked at... dispite what Sheldon Brown says people called it.

    We are essentially calling the same thing two different names. But in respect to the bike that we are talking about... that groupo did IN FACT have an option of STI... My guess would be that, that bike origionally came with downtube shifters because not many people could afford STI when it first came out (which was just about the time that bike came out) and I will bet that later on someone decided they wanted to replace the DT shifters and that's where the SORA came in... but it was NOT because that groupo didn't have an STI option.
  • 06-17-2011
    ProdigalCyclist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dave Hickey View Post
    As I mentioned above there is nothing wrong with Sora.....New Sora shifters vs early 90's 600 shifters of unknown mileage and care.......I'd take new Sora....

    Remember when you read forums like RBR, we tend to be snobs....It's the same in photography forums and audio forums.....There is high end and there is perfectly acceptable for the vast majority of people... there isn't a minimally acceptable road group.

    There are plenty of riders that ride thousands of miles per year on Sora, Tiagra and 2300....The groups perform just fine.....

    If you enjoy this sport and want to continue, think about upgrading.... but having Sora on a bike isn't going to diminish your riding experience

    Personally I love the bike you bought,.....I have a couple of carbon tubed, aluminum lugged bikes and love them


    The problem with what you say about taking SORA shifters over 600 shiters of "unkown milage and care" is this...

    The SORA shifters are of "unknown milage and care"

    So either way you are using a pair of shifters that are of an unknown quantity. But the early STI shifters were VERY durable... I'm not so sure you can say that about SORA shifters.

    Now I want to clarify something to the OP... I am NOT in any way diminishing your bike. I think you got an awesome deal. And I don't think the SORA shifters are "bad" per se. I just know a lot of people out there like to have things match. And I also know that I prefer the STI set up over the little thumb thingies that are on SORA shifters.

    The only reason I brought up looking for the 600 (or the Ultegra shifters for the peanut gallery) is to show they can be found and they can be found at a fairly reasonable price IF you were to decide you want the shifters to A) match the bike or B) like the STI set up better.... or both.

    But you got an awesome bike... and I really hope you enjoy riding it as much as I'm enjoying riding my Lugged Carbon road machine :thumbsup:
  • 06-17-2011
    PJ352
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ProdigalCyclist View Post
    Actually no... I'm not glossing over anything. You said (at the begining of this dicussion) that 600 did not have STI. And it clearly did. When I showed you a picture of 600 STI you side stepped by saying well that's 600 Ultegra not 600. But if you'll look back at previous posts in THIS thread I even said that 600 is what Ultegra actually is... and that is true... in the way that it applies to THIS bike (and the groupo on it) which is what we're talking about.

    At the point in time we are talking about 600 is Ultegra and Ultegra is 600 Because the ACTUAL moniker from Shimano (at the time) was Shimano 600 Ultegra and the model number for it was 6400.

    The proper name of the second tier of Shimano components was Shimano 600 Ultegra up UNTIL the 9 speed Ultegra came out... Sheldon Brown even says that in the line you quoted.

    What you are doing is arguing nomeclature... but at the time that this groupo was out it was still refferred to as Shimano 600 by me, all the riders I associated with, and in the bike shop I worked at... dispite what Sheldon Brown says people called it.

    We are essentially calling the same thing two different names. But in respect to the bike that we are talking about... that groupo did IN FACT have an option of STI... My guess would be that, that bike origionally came with downtube shifters because not many people could afford STI when it first came out (which was just about the time that bike came out) and I will bet that later on someone decided they wanted to replace the DT shifters and that's where the SORA came in... but it was NOT because that groupo didn't have an STI option.

    You're doing it again. 600 started out as 600, not 600 Ultegra and it did not offer STI. It was offered as a 6 spd d/ tube (friction) shifter group. You said otherwise, and that's incorrect.

    Again, no side steps. The pic you posted has Shimano 600 written on the shifter, but it's a part of the 600 Ultegra 8 speed drivetrain. There is no 6 or 7 spd STI (I think you know that) and given your statement that 600 was offered with STI's there would have to be.

    This isn't semantics. It's that your statement is incorrect. The 600 groupset did not offer STI's. Period. 8 spd 600 Ultegra did. And I don't know enough about the OP's bike to argue unknowns about the bike or its OEM equipment, nor am I willing to make assumptions relating to it. I'm saying that your statement that the 600 group was offered with STI's is incorrect. And it is.

    We've shared our views on the topic, so (IMO) it's time to agree to disagree and leave it to members to decide for themselves, assuming the issue even matters to them.

    OP: Apologies for the slightly off-topic convo. Enjoy your new ride!!
  • 06-17-2011
    ProdigalCyclist
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PJ352 View Post
    You're doing it again. 600 started out as 600, not 600 Ultegra and it did not offer STI. It was offered as a 6 spd d/ tube (friction) shifter group. You said otherwise, and that's incorrect.

    Again, no side steps. The pic you posted has Shimano 600 written on the shifter, but it's a part of the 600 Ultegra 8 speed drivetrain. There is no 6 or 7 spd STI (I think you know that) and for your statement that 600 was offered with STI's there would have to be.

    This isn't semantics. It's that your statement is incorrect. The 600 groupset did not offer STI's. Period. 8 spd 600 Ultegra did. And I don't know enough about the OP's bike to argue unknowns about the the bike or its OEM equipment, nor am I willing to make assumptions relating to it. I'm saying that your statement that the 600 group was offered with STI's is incorrect. And it is.

    We've shared our views on the topic, so (IMO) it's time to agree to disagree and leave it to members to decide for themselves, assuming the issue even matters to them.



    LMAO... So essentially what you are saying is that you are right... even though the evedince proves you other wise so we should agree to disagree because you aren't going to admit your wrong.

    Ok... you win... would you like the sticker or the bag of animal crackers?
  • 06-17-2011
    PJ352
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ProdigalCyclist View Post
    LMAO... So essentially what you are saying is that you are right... even though the evedince proves you other wise so we should agree to disagree because you aren't going to admit your wrong.

    Ok... you win... would you like the sticker or the bag of animal crackers?

    There's no question that I'm right, and (as I've posted) the 'evidence' proves it. If you doubt it, post pics of 6 or 7 speed Shimano 600 STI's. Bet you don't.
  • 06-17-2011
    forge55b
    great buy to get into the sport.....

    and to the two that are kind of thread jacking......you guys are NERDS!