Arghhhhh.....I've just been sent the wrong frame size!
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  1. #1
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    Arghhhhh.....I've just been sent the wrong frame size!

    I purchased a new 2006 Cinelli Xperience frame on Ebay from a dealer in Italy 2 weeks ago.
    I'm in Australia and at the time he had three of these Cinelli frames available....an XS, a S and an M. I made it very clear to him (in Italian) that I needed the S. Well you guessed it.......the frame came in today and he has sent me the XS. @#$%!!! I have just emailed him informing him of the mistake and am awaiting a reply. I'm just wondering what to do. Should I just keep the XS and just get a longer stem and jack up the seat post or insist that he take back the XS frame and give me back my money or even send me the S which I clearly requested if he has it available? The thing is who should pay the $107au shipping from Australia back to Italy if I were to send it back??

    I'm sure it was an honest mistake because this frame has no decal on it stating the size so he must have made a visual assumption.He seems like a reputable dealer with a retail outlet and 100% positive feedback.

    As you can see the geometries for the XS an S aren't all that diifferent:



    Geometries: XPERIENCE

    T/S S1 S T1 T Steer a b R C F WB E B.B.Fork

    XS 480 460 375 522,0 502 108 72 74 45 408 569,0 967,0 73 265 368
    S 500 480 435 525,0 510 108 72 74 45 405 571,4 965,1 73 265 368
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
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    NO, don't keep the frame. You should send it back and get your proper size. They should pay the shipping both ways now. If they refuse then you need to file a greivance with ebay and paypal. You didn't get what you ordered.

    There seems to be a lot of difference between the XS and the S.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianmcg
    NO, don't keep the frame. You should send it back and get your proper size. They should pay the shipping both ways now. If they refuse then you need to file a greivance with ebay and paypal. You didn't get what you ordered.

    There seems to be a lot of difference between the XS and the S.
    Yeah that's what I'm thinking. As for the similarities/differences in the geometry. The virtual top tube (T1) lengths ar very similar:

    The XS is 522mm and the S is 525mm. Seat tubes (S) from C-T are 460mm and 480mm respectively. Sorry about the mis-aligned geometries.

    The XS frame just looks really small almost like a kids bike.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianmcg
    NO, don't keep the frame. You should send it back and get your proper size. They should pay the shipping both ways now. If they refuse then you need to file a greivance with ebay and paypal. You didn't get what you ordered.

    There seems to be a lot of difference between the XS and the S.
    Work with the seller to get things resolved. He's probably not happy about the mistake and the extra it will cost him, but an amicable resolution between buyer and seller is always the best outcome.

    Before you rely on eBay or PayPal to help you out, READ THE FINE PRINT. Filing a greviance with eBay and/or PayPal will accomplish little to nothing. The coverages and guarantees they offer are minor and it will take months to collect even that pittance. The main purpose of eBay/PayPal guarantees is to give users a sense (false though it may be) of security. If you were smart enough to pay for this purchase with a credit card, and if the seller won't cooperate, your best bet is to contact the card company and work through them.

  5. #5
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    almost the same...

    I only see a 3mm difference in the TT length, with the same seat tube angle and the same head tube length. Unless the frame was marked XS, you'd have to take some accurate dimensions just to tell the difference.

    What's your saddle height?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-40
    I only see a 3mm difference in the TT length, with the same seat tube angle and the same head tube length. Unless the frame was marked XS, you'd have to take some accurate dimensions just to tell the difference.

    What's your saddle height?
    What I measured was the length of the seat tube from centre to top (S1) and it was exactly 46cm just like the XS. Another thing that makes me suspect that it is XS is that the top tube and the seat stays do not meet at the same point on the seat tube. On larger Cinelli frames such as the S the top tube and seat stays are welded at the same height on the seat tube. On the one I received the top tube is welded a little lower on the ST than the seat stays.

    My saddle height about 68cm

    I'm currently riding a Small Giant TCR with a 46.5cm seat tube (C-T) and a 535mm virtual top tube. This new Cinelli has nearly the same length seat tube of 46cm as the Giant and a virtual top tube of 522mm.

    I currently use a 110mm stem on the Giant. Maybe a 120mm stem would work on the Cinelli.
    Last edited by Italianrider76; 03-28-2007 at 02:13 AM. Reason: wrong saddle height

  7. #7
    Windrider (Stubborn)
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    Those frame size differences are negligible.....

    I don't understand why Cinilli would have 2 frames so close in size.

    As C-40 says....the HT are the same.....the TT lengths are 3 MM difference.

    Unless I'm missing something, I'd just keep the frame.

    But something is screwy with 2 frame sizes that close.

    Len



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  8. #8
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    saddle height...

    Saddle height is measured from the center of the BB to the top of the saddle, along the center of the seat tube. I'd guess yours to be under 70cm.

    As for the stem requirement, the steeper STA on the new frame increases the reach by about 10mm, once the saddle is in the same position relative to the BB, so you should be able to use the same stem length.

    The one question is if the 12mm shorter HT is a problem. If the frame uses a conventional threadless headset, there is no problem. If it's integrated, then you'll have to deal with the 12mm shortfall.
    Last edited by C-40; 03-27-2007 at 09:01 AM.

  9. #9
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    I can't believe a company doesn't somehow mark a frame's size (but then it is an Italian frame...).

  10. #10
    n00bsauce
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    While the actual TT length difference is only 3mm the effective TT length difference is 60mm? Something doesn't add up here. Maybe the specs given by the OP are wrong. If there's a 6cm difference in effective TT length between the XS and S that would be significant.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Erickson
    While the actual TT length difference is only 3mm the effective TT length difference is 60mm? Something doesn't add up here. Maybe the specs given by the OP are wrong. If there's a 6cm difference in effective TT length between the XS and S that would be significant.
    THere seem to be errors on the Cinelli website. Notice how the HT on the XXS is even longer than on the M frame? Also.......notice that the wheel base on the XS is longer than the S. What is that about? This is the link to the geometry page:
    http://www.cinelli.it/scripts/prodot...=EN&IdBici=397. Just click on Geometry.

    This makes the whole thing even more confusing!
    Last edited by Italianrider76; 03-27-2007 at 01:06 PM.

  12. #12
    wim
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    No errors.

    Notice how the HT on the XXS is even longer than on the M frame?
    The XXS has what Cinelli calls 26" wheels.

    Also.......notice that the wheel base on the XS is longer than the S. What is that about?
    Wheelbases often get longer on very small bikes with 700 (Cinelli calls those 28") wheels to gain clearance between the front wheel and the downtube.

  13. #13
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    Try to resolve the issue by getting the size S frame that you ordered.
    Be aware that most of the longer established Italian builders actually build up the frames around the bottom bracket with the setback being the key element that everything else will be based.
    They generally DO NOT build from specified angles.
    I'd hazard to guess that the seat and head angle specifications given in the charts are just approximations.Lengths are likely spot-on accurate,however.
    ***On some of Cinelli's previous year's model geometry charts ,the legend for the angles would often show a "?"(a?, b?).
    Last edited by caterham; 03-27-2007 at 01:48 PM.

  14. #14
    wim
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    Cinelli's not to blame.

    Note that on some of Cinelli's geometry charts ,the legend for the angles will even show a "?"(a?, b?).
    That's a HTML character encoding issue. My screen shows the symbol for degree in every instance.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by wim
    That's a HTML character encoding issue. My screen shows the symbol for degree in every instance.
    You could be correct as I'm not too saavy with 'puters.
    My observation was from studying the geomtries of the 2 cinelli's that I eventually purchased and both model years ('02 and '04) as well as in charts from '03,'05 had the "?" in the legend for the given angles (the notation displayed as "a" or "b" , followed by a degree symbol, then the "?" and also shown with an * on some model charts in '06 )
    Last edited by caterham; 03-27-2007 at 02:31 PM.

  16. #16
    wim
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    These character encoding glitches are pretty common. So are bad drawings, incorrect and transposed numbers, washed out dimension lines and other assorted uglies on web site engineering diagrams. Seems like if it goes on the web, it doesn't get proofread—so you're right about doubting the numbers.

    Cinelli does give you a link to the .pdf file of the paper catalog. Follow the link in post #11, then click on the hard-to-see "download bicycle catalogue" center left page. The catalogue charts are much easier to read.

  17. #17
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    it appears that the primary differences between the two sizes is largely to get a lower standover with a small adjustment for the weight distribution via lengthing of the chainstay and *should* be within the range of "normal" stem/saddle selection & adjustment .
    atm, it looks like it's a judgement call to me.
    The bottom line is - Do you think you'd be happy with the smaller size frame provided you can get a good fit and handling?

    ps-something for you to check-
    How usable will a bottle cage be on the seat tube? You may be forced to use a sideloading cage as it's already a mighty tight fit on a S.
    Last edited by caterham; 03-29-2007 at 11:17 AM.

  18. #18
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    wheelbase...

    Quote Originally Posted by Italianrider76
    THere seem to be errors on the Cinelli website. Notice how the HT on the XXS is even longer than on the M frame? Also.......notice that the wheel base on the XS is longer than the S. What is that about? This is the link to the geometry page:
    http://www.cinelli.it/scripts/prodot...=EN&IdBici=397. Just click on Geometry.

    This makes the whole thing even more confusing!
    The XS has longer chainstays, but a 3mm shorter TT, so the two should cancel out. The difference is quite small. Sometimes is has to do with roundoff error on one of the angle dimensions. You've got the XS frame, so you can measure what you've got. Still don't see any problem that the size S frame will solve.
    Last edited by C-40; 03-28-2007 at 05:44 AM.

  19. #19
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    Thanks for the replies. They've been very helpful. As I stated and so have several others, the difference is fairly small between the two frames. I guess what I don't like about the XS is that it looks really small. Becase it's not yet built up, looks are all I have to go on a the moment. The longer seat tube on the S makes the front triangle look a little larger. On the XS, the front triangle is tiny.

    On another note, When I was enquiring about the frame before having purchased it, the dealer was usually very quick to respond to my enquiries. I emailed him about 24 hours ago about the mistake.................still no reply. Funny that

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Italianrider76
    Thanks for the replies. They've been very helpful. As I stated and so have several others, the difference is fairly small between the two frames. I guess what I don't like about the XS is that it looks really small. Becase it's not yet built up, looks are all I have to go on a the moment. The longer seat tube on the S makes the front triangle look a little larger. On the XS, the front triangle is tiny.

    On another note, When I was enquiring about the frame before having purchased it, the dealer was usually very quick to respond to my enquiries. I emailed him about 24 hours ago about the mistake.................still no reply. Funny that
    Looks are important too. Maybe he ran out of smalls in which case just send it back for credit and start over.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by caterham
    Be aware that most of the longer established Italian builders actually build up the frames around the bottom bracket with the setback being the key element that everything else will be based.
    They generally DO NOT build from specified angles.
    I'd hazard to guess that the seat and head angle specifications given in the charts are just approximations.Lengths are likely spot-on accurate,however.
    It is likely the Cinelli bikes are still being built by Fort, a Chec builder however.

    To the OP, if it fits, keep the frame.

  22. #22
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    Got an email back from the dealer. Accepts total responsibilty for the mistake and is also willing to pay for the shipping charges back to Italy. He didn't have any S frames left. I guess me and Cinelli were just not meant to be.

  23. #23
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    stick wheels on it and step back and look at it

    those differences in the chart are really small.
    if you can envision it built--that is the test. my first true super compact was a kelly luscious--as a frame i thought it looked dorky--so tiny, but it rode great
    jim

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevesbike
    I can't believe a company doesn't somehow mark a frame's size (but then it is an Italian frame...).
    You'd be surprised how common this is with Italian frames, Colnago being a prominent example. I think Pinarello too, but I haven't looked at one in an LBS lately. Moreover Colnago measures from center-to-TT whereas Pinarello is sized from center-to-center.

    I always carry a cm tape measure whenever I go to an LBS with Italian frames. On Colnagos, I've learned to recognize the size based on the junction area at the head and TT.

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