Building Bike…new frame…bottom bracket?
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  1. #1
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    Building Bike…new frame…bottom bracket?

    I’m in the process of building another bike. I’ve decided to purchase the Trek Emonda SLR frame. (had my eye on the Canyon EVO frame, but it’s not available in the U.S. at the moment and Canyon’s pretty limited options and limited availability of parts dissuaded me on Canyon for now). I was able to get a look at a customer’s bike (Emonda SLR frame) at the LBS and noticed the bottom bracket area was hollow and according to Trek, the BB bearings sit directly in the frame with no bottom bracket cups. Although, the frame is made to accept the BB bearings with no cups, I am concerned with this setup because I have to now use oversized BB bearings on my 2012 Trek Madone because the BB frame area had become enlarged. Because of this concern, I am considering installing the Wheels Manufacturing threaded BB bearing and cups (see link below). I figured it will prevent damage to the frame and if for any reason there is any wear, the cups will take the hit and not the frame.

    1.Is my thinking on point or am I wrong about this?

    2. Should I install these bearings with the cups?

    3. Should I just install the bearings directly into the frame with no cups?

    4. Has anyone used these types of bearings on their bike?



    Bottom Bracket



    I’d appreciated any insight.



    Thanks...

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methodical View Post
    1.Is my thinking on point or am I wrong about this?
    No.

    4. Has anyone used these types of bearings on their bike?
    Yes. Not that one exactly but I've used similar and installed a few Wheels Mfg threaded BB's for others. They're great. Easy to maintain. And pretty much eliminate BB creaking.

    If you had a new bike with an installed BB I'd say just use it and replace later. But since you're building up from scratch, there's no reason not to go with the threaded BB.
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  3. #3
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    The Wheels bottom bracket won't fit in the Trek. The ONLY bb that will work is what Trek uses...bearings pressed into the frame. You can improve your situation by getting really high quality bearings...SKF, ***, NTN, or NSK. Watch Hambini's video on YT about Trek bb.
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    F A G

    As in bearing brand. Looks like the censors got CX
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    Jesus...being PC taken to a new level. F'ing snowflakes.
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    Thanks everyone. CX, ironic you mention Hambini, I was just watching one of his videos.

    CX, when you say it won't fit, are you saying it will be too large to go through the frame? I thought BB90 and PF90 is basically the same thing, just different terminology as they both are 90mm press in bearings.

    CX, so no go on the Enduro bearings?

    Interesting what he says about Enduro bearings out the box having some roughness; I've noticed that too, so I typically degrease them and repack them with another grease, which seems to help.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-FqWpi5n8Y
    Last edited by Methodical; 03-27-2019 at 01:29 PM.

  7. #7
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    Nachi is another decent brand. Believe it or not bearings are a popular item for counterfeiting. I don't know to what degree the size, style and grade that we're talking here are susceptible to it but you might want to lean toward an industrial supply at least or an authorized dealer at best.

    Maybe I'm paranoid.
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  8. #8
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methodical View Post
    Thanks everyone. CX, ironic you mention Hambini, I was just watching one of his videos.

    CX, when you say it won't fit, are you saying it will be too large to go through the frame? I thought BB90 and PF90 is basically the same thing, just different terminology as they both are 90mm press in bearings.

    CX, so no go on the Enduro bearings?

    Interesting what he says about Enduro bearings out the box having some roughness; I've noticed that too, so I typically degrease them and repack them with another grease, which seems to help.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-FqWpi5n8Y
    Will. Not. Fit. Period.

    BB90 is designed to work w/ 24mm crank axles. The bearing is 37x24x7mm. You can't put a bearing that will work w/ a 30mm crank axle in a Trek frame. That is the ONLY bearing that will fit (and obviously the SRAM GXP bearings work). BB90 and PF30 aren't even close to being similar. There is no such thing as 'PF90'. Enduro is ok, not great. The bearings listed on the video are going to be the best ones and you want the upper part of the size range. The OS bearings (37.1 OD instead of 37.0 +/-) we get from Trek are SKF and seem pretty good. I will measure one carefully tomorrow and see what they look like.

    ETA: Look at this diagram, it will help eliminate some of the confusion you're having regarding bottom bracket standards.
    https://problemsolversbike.com/files..._Reference.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Will. Not. Fit. Period.

    BB90 is designed to work w/ 24mm crank axles. The bearing is 37x24x7mm. You can't put a bearing that will work w/ a 30mm crank axle in a Trek frame. That is the ONLY bearing that will fit (and obviously the SRAM GXP bearings work). BB90 and PF30 aren't even close to being similar. There is no such thing as 'PF90'. Enduro is ok, not great. The bearings listed on the video are going to be the best ones and you want the upper part of the size range. The OS bearings (37.1 OD instead of 37.0 +/-) we get from Trek are SKF and seem pretty good. I will measure one carefully tomorrow and see what they look like.

    ETA: Look at this diagram, it will help eliminate some of the confusion you're having regarding bottom bracket standards.
    https://problemsolversbike.com/files..._Reference.pdf
    Thanks. I guess I was mislead by Wheels Manufacturing because in the description it states it works with PF90 (Trek) - maybe it's a misprint and should be PF30.

    While at the LBS, the owner suggested I go with the Ceramic speed bottom bracket bearings, but man are they pricey. They had a couple cranks on display showing the difference between standard BB and ceramic BB and of course the ceramic BB spun better with way less friction than the other. However, I do recall Hambini talking about these test showing one crank spinning for a long time, while the other did not.

    1. What's the deal with these ceramic speed bottom bracket bearings? Are they worth the cost of entry?
    2. Since the BB press directly into the frame is the BB sleeve still necessary? I saw a photo of the ceramic speed bb and it didn't look like they came with the BB sleeve.

    Just an FYI. I don't want it to seem like I don't know about bikes or how to build them, because I do know how to build them, I am just trying to get all the facts about the BB because I don't want to go through the same thing I did with my Madone.

    Again thanks...

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    If the LBS told you to use Ceramic Speed bearings, find a new LBS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Methodical View Post
    Thanks. I guess I was mislead by Wheels Manufacturing because in the description it states it works with PF90 (Trek) - maybe it's a misprint and should be PF30.

    While at the LBS, the owner suggested I go with the Ceramic speed bottom bracket bearings, but man are they pricey. They had a couple cranks on display showing the difference between standard BB and ceramic BB and of course the ceramic BB spun better with way less friction than the other. However, I do recall Hambini talking about these test showing one crank spinning for a long time, while the other did not.

    1. What's the deal with these ceramic speed bottom bracket bearings? Are they worth the cost of entry?
    2. Since the BB press directly into the frame is the BB sleeve still necessary? I saw a photo of the ceramic speed bb and it didn't look like they came with the BB sleeve.

    Just an FYI. I don't want it to seem like I don't know about bikes or how to build them, because I do know how to build them, I am just trying to get all the facts about the BB because I don't want to go through the same thing I did with my Madone.

    Again thanks...
    1) No such thing as PF90. It's BB90.
    2) Ceramicspeed are very expensive and not worth it unless you're a fraction of a second from making a comfortable living from winning something huge.
    3) There is a 2 piece sleeve between the bearings in a BB90 frame and yes...you should definitely use it.

    They spin like that because they have a small amount of very thin grease and non-contact seals...NOT because of the ceramic balls. Most of the time their lifespan is shorter than good steel bearings because most people won't be bothered w/ maintaining them properly. I would NEVER spend my hard earned $$$ on ceramic bearings. They are designed to work in very high rpm, clean, high heat environments w/ a radial load. Not even close to what you get in a bicycle bottom bracket.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    1) No such thing as PF90. It's BB90.
    2) Ceramicspeed are very expensive and not worth it unless you're a fraction of a second from making a comfortable living from winning something huge.
    3) There is a 2 piece sleeve between the bearings in a BB90 frame and yes...you should definitely use it.

    They spin like that because they have a small amount of very thin grease and non-contact seals...NOT because of the ceramic balls. Most of the time their lifespan is shorter than good steel bearings because most people won't be bothered w/ maintaining them properly. I would NEVER spend my hard earned $$$ on ceramic bearings. They are designed to work in very high rpm, clean, high heat environments w/ a radial load. Not even close to what you get in a bicycle bottom bracket.
    What you state about those bearings is what I've read and have been reading on them. I had no plans to get them, but I was curious to see what your thoughts are about them since you are around this stuff a lot.

    Thanks...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finx View Post
    If the LBS told you to use Ceramic Speed bearings, find a new LBS.
    Nah, he's cool. They will suggest things, but they know I don't go head first and always do my research. This LBS has great customer service and have always treated me like VIP and I don't ever pay their asking prices (good relationship). I don't get mad enough over suggestions to cut ties with them - they are just that, suggestions. I'm aware of a lot of this biking stuff, unlike many of the average customers, so I don't fall for the "Glossy Brochure" presentations; I do my own research.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methodical View Post
    Nah, he's cool. They will suggest things, but they know I don't go head first and always do my research. This LBS has great customer service and have always treated me like VIP and I don't ever pay their asking prices (good relationship). I don't get mad enough over suggestions to cut ties with them - they are just that, suggestions. I'm aware of a lot of this biking stuff, unlike many of the average customers, so I don't fall for the "Glossy Brochure" presentations; I do my own research.
    That's the smart way to do it.
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    Research is the only way. I know quite a bit about a lot of things, familiar with a lot of things and know nothing about a lot of things, so I have to read, ask, read and then ask some more.

    CX, you suggested going with NTN or other higher quality bearings so I searched the NTN website for the proper bearing for the BB90 GXP BB, but coming up short. The closest bearing I found was 37x25x7 (would need a reducer of course). There's nothing near 37x22x7 (only could find 20mm ID bearings). It seems they don't have anything to match the non drive side bearing requirements. Perhaps I am missing something that you may be aware of. Can you recommend any of those higher quality brands that offers the correct bearing for the GXP BB?

    Also, based on Hambini's research, the grease in the bearings is the 2nd major cause of friction in the bearings (contact seals being number 1), what grease or oil do you suggest to lessen friction? I ask because I may have to go this route if I can't find the higher quality NTN bearing for my bike.

    Thanks...

    https://eshop.ntn-snr.com/en/6805JRL...hopId%5D=12076
    Last edited by Methodical; 04-03-2019 at 03:10 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methodical View Post
    Research is the only way. I know quite a bit about a lot of things, familiar with a lot of things and know nothing about a lot of things, so I have to read, ask, read and then ask some more.

    CX, you suggested going with NTN or other higher quality bearings so I searched the NTN website for the proper bearing for the BB90 GXP BB, but coming up short. The closest bearing I found was 37x25x7 (would need a reducer of course). There's nothing near 37x22x7 (only could find 20mm ID bearings). It seems they don't have anything to match the non drive side bearing requirements. Perhaps I am missing something that you may be aware of. Can you recommend any of those higher quality brands that offers the correct bearing for the GXP BB?

    Also, based on Hambini's research, the grease in the bearings is the 2nd major cause of friction in the bearings (contact seals being number 1), what grease or oil do you suggest to lessen friction? I ask because I may have to go this route if I can't find the higher quality NTN bearing for my bike.

    Thanks...

    https://eshop.ntn-snr.com/en/6805JRL...hopId%5D=12076
    Are racing at the highest amateur/pro level? Are you paying for your own bikes? Are you paying to have them maintained? If yes you don't want the 'fast' seals and thin grease. You want the bearings that will last longest w/ the least fuss on your end. I'd use the stock SKF bearings and make sure they're pressed in properly. That 1 watt you gain from ceramic balls and watery grease isn't going to get you anything during normal rides...other than the need to service your bearings constantly.
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    No racing on my part, but I do my own mechanical work. As a matter of fact, I am changing the BB bearings as we speak, but I get what you are saying.

    Thanks...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Methodical View Post
    No racing on my part, but I do my own mechanical work. As a matter of fact, I am changing the BB bearings as we speak, but I get what you are saying.

    Thanks...
    You're welcome. There are definitely better places to spend money on bike
    I put a bunch of ceramic bearings (Enduro) in my track bike years ago, right before master's nationals. I got them all for free so I thought what the hell. Track bike stays really clean, it was nationals, and I only did the sprint events so most everything was timed...winning margins were tiny. I did PR the kilo, but I think it was more that the conditions were absolutely perfect for me and I was feeling good.
    If I had to pay for them and they were on a road bike...forget it. That will never happen.
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    How about the Token Ninja BB3724 as a "threaded" solution? The bad thing, you need their special tool for installation. Also, the availability is limited compared to Wheels Mfg.

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    I'm conducting an experiment with the Madone. I degreased and installed new BB bearings and degreased and reinstalled the headset bearings. Instead of using the standard grease, I used Finish Line Synthetic Wet Bike Lubricant. I went for a short ride (23 miles) after the install and everything very was smooth. The headset is much smoother turning with this lube than grease and the BB bearing spun much looser than with grease, which is obvious why. I'm going to see how many miles I can get out of these bearings with this lube. This probably has already be done before, but I want to give it a try.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methodical View Post
    I'm conducting an experiment with the Madone. I degreased and installed new BB bearings and degreased and reinstalled the headset bearings. Instead of using the standard grease, I used Finish Line Synthetic Wet Bike Lubricant. I went for a short ride (23 miles) after the install and everything very was smooth. The headset is much smoother turning with this lube than grease and the BB bearing spun much looser than with grease, which is obvious why. I'm going to see how many miles I can get out of these bearings with this lube. This probably has already be done before, but I want to give it a try.
    Something like "not very many".
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Something like "not very many".
    We'll see for sure. I like to buck the system and prove theories wrong. Besides, they are cheap to replace.
    Last edited by Methodical; 04-05-2019 at 09:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Methodical View Post
    I'm conducting an experiment with the Madone. I degreased and installed new BB bearings and degreased and reinstalled the headset bearings. Instead of using the standard grease, I used Finish Line Synthetic Wet Bike Lubricant. I went for a short ride (23 miles) after the install and everything very was smooth. The headset is much smoother turning with this lube than grease and the BB bearing spun much looser than with grease, which is obvious why. I'm going to see how many miles I can get out of these bearings with this lube. This probably has already be done before, but I want to give it a try.
    It's not unheard of for people to do this as a 'race day' only setup, and would also include wheel bearings. Of course they would go back to a normal weight grease for training and other non-race day activities.

    It's a little looney if you ask me. I mean if you don't mind servicing your bearings every ride, and replacing bearings way too often, then sure, go for it.. otherwise, it's just way too much work and expense for very little gain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finx View Post
    It's not unheard of for people to do this as a 'race day' only setup, and would also include wheel bearings. Of course they would go back to a normal weight grease for training and other non-race day activities.

    It's a little looney if you ask me. I mean if you don't mind servicing your bearings every ride, and replacing bearings way too often, then sure, go for it.. otherwise, it's just way too much work and expense for very little gain.
    Looney. If it were not for looney people (or thought to be looney) in the world there would not be many of the great inventions of the world today. It's the scared people and those that's afraid to take chances that don't make a difference in society.

    I like to go against the grain (not follow the norm) and see how things turn out for myself. I do all the mechanical work on my bike and it takes no time to pop them out if need be, so no real expense for me. The bearings are cheap, so I keep several sets on hand.

    I'm not looking for any gains, just testing the limits of the lube I used. That's it, nothing else.
    Last edited by Methodical; 04-05-2019 at 10:06 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methodical View Post
    We'll see for sure. I like to buck the system and prove theories wrong. Besides, they are cheap to replace.
    You're not breaking any new ground here. We know that grease will last longer, that's why it is used in the majority of bearings. If you just want to find out by how much, go for it.
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