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  1. #51
    Formosan Cyclocross
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    Political theater. China's "anger" is a managed choice. Though, I think, here, we should stick with influence on production and quality.

  2. #52
    pmf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dajianshan
    Political theater. China's "anger" is a managed choice. Though, I think, here, we should stick with influence on production and quality.
    OK, aside from the fact that you live on a little island that the Chinese occassionaly lob missile in your general direction, threaten to invade you and fail to recongnize your existence, your buddy has $3k to spend on a bike and should be able to get something pretty decent for that.

    Taiwan is known as world class manufacturer of bicycles. Isn't the Giant bicycle factory located in Taiwan? I read that the best carbon frames are made in Taiwan. So why is your buddy so deadset on a titanium bike in the first place? Don't get me wrong, I have a 1999 Litespeed Ultimate that I still ride (mostly commuting if the f-ing snow ever melts). I've also ridden carbon bikes starting in the early 1990's with a Kestrel and currently a Colnago. Titanium is nice stuff, but its expensive for what it is. It became a popular alternative to steel because it is lighter and has a similar ride to steel -- something aluminium can't match. But then carbon bikes came along. They're increasingly better and cheaper. Why not get a carbon frame made locally? Its in your own backyard, no?

  3. #53
    Formosan Cyclocross
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    He's a big heavy clyde who wants this bike for 10 to 15 years. We often have to throw bikes on trains and travel cases to get around, so the fear of scratching up or damaging a carbon frame is perceived to be greater. There are tons of cheap carbon and aluminum frames here. Trigon is in out backyard. He wants steel or ti.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf
    OK, aside from the fact that you live on a little island that the Chinese occassionaly lob missile in your general direction, threaten to invade you and fail to recongnize your existence, your buddy has $3k to spend on a bike and should be able to get something pretty decent for that.

    Taiwan is known as world class manufacturer of bicycles. Isn't the Giant bicycle factory located in Taiwan? I read that the best carbon frames are made in Taiwan. So why is your buddy so deadset on a titanium bike in the first place? Don't get me wrong, I have a 1999 Litespeed Ultimate that I still ride (mostly commuting if the f-ing snow ever melts). I've also ridden carbon bikes starting in the early 1990's with a Kestrel and currently a Colnago. Titanium is nice stuff, but its expensive for what it is. It became a popular alternative to steel because it is lighter and has a similar ride to steel -- something aluminium can't match. But then carbon bikes came along. They're increasingly better and cheaper. Why not get a carbon frame made locally? Its in your own backyard, no?
    +1. Taiwanese carbon fiber is some of the best. If you gave me a bike and told me it was made in China, I'd take a closer look before I got on. A Taiwanese bike? I'd ride it immediately.
    "It's hard to tell the poison from the cure, so enjoy the disease."
    -Mohair_Chair

  5. #55
    pmf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dajianshan
    He's a big heavy clyde who wants this bike for 10 to 15 years. We often have to throw bikes on trains and travel cases to get around, so the fear of scratching up or damaging a carbon frame is perceived to be greater. There are tons of cheap carbon and aluminum frames here. Trigon is in out backyard. He wants steel or ti.
    Last time I looked, ALL steel bikes are painted (unless they're chrome plated I guess). So really your only choice if you want an unpainted bike is titanium. I can understand that. I've twice traveled with a bike on a plane and both times, I took the titanium bike for that reason. I recall watching some French bafoons drop my bike case 6 feet off the cargo hold of the plane onto the tarmac at Charles DeGaulle airport. It came through fine.

    Frankly, having owned several carbon bikes, I think the paint chipping thing is a nonissue. I'd travel with my carbon bike with no worries. The stuff is a lot tougher than people give it credit for, and the ride is first class. Your buddy should try one to see what he thinks. He could get a lot nicer bike if he went carbon.

  6. #56
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    I guess I should've clarified the Ti is Ti quote. I was implying the same levels of Ti from a Chinese manufacturer is the same as the same level by a U.S. manufacturer. I don't believe that one can say that U.S. made ti frames are always better than a Chinese made one. Even if it is the case a lot of the times, there are chinese frames that are just as good. Now with the market the way it is and everyone trying to sell by lowering prices, a Litespeed or Lynskey would be a better option for a round the same price.

  7. #57
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    IMO

    FWIW Everti is a Canadian brand that makes their Ti frames in Asia.

    I think if Ti makes any sort of *volume* come-back the Asians will make a good business out of it in a few short years - just like with current carbon frames. Think about it - Japanese generally make the most *reliable cars* in the world now (ok, poor Toyota!!!!). So Asians know how to make high quality product even if sometimes their design is not exactly as inspiring as Euro/US design.

    Me? I have a custom Ti made in Australia - since this is where I live. 8^)

  8. #58
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    Titanium is certainly not titanium, even if the same alloy is used. Forming thin wall tubing that is reliably tough and fatigue resistant is very, very difficult.

    The cost difference between cheap titanium tubing and good titanium tubing lies in the care with which it has been stress relieved after each forming process. Try asking your fabricator what the contractile strain ratio of the tubing they use is.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dajianshan
    We are in Taiwan. He's got $3000 to spend on a new bike. Velocite is calling. They claim it is constructed by Wheeler (I have my doubts). I am just highly suspicious of a company that can come up out of nowhere and offer several frames and components that are cheap and worth a damn... enough to carry my confidence. My friend wants a steel or titanium bike to last a long time with Record or Ultegra. There... I said it! I am working hard on this thing.
    I hope that the information in the other thread answered the questions to a sufficient detail as to how Velocite can actually deliver on what we claim:

    http://forums.roadbikereview.com/sho...49#post2636849

    You are also welcome to contact us or me directly if you have any questions. There are multiple avenues (This one being the most direct: http://velocite-bikes.com/contact-us...stomer-service ) , including a visit in person since you are in Taiwan...I'll show you the shipping boxes that the Millennium frames come in...with the sender's details

    Cheers,

    V.

    EDIT: for completeness sake while our sales channels are being built, the price of "USD 1800" ($1799 actually...) includes a full carbon monocoque fork and an FSA branded FSA headset, so it is a frameset price, not just the frame.

  10. #60
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    Pride Cycles Titanium

    Have any of you heard of these guys www.pridecyclesusa.com? They have great prices on US titanium frames and are offering custom at the price of stock for February. I am considering ordering one, but haven't seen any comments on them.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dajianshan
    I got into a discussion about Titanium frames today as a friend wants to spend $1800 on a Chinese manufactured Titanium frame sold by an obscure branding company that slapped a sticker and components on the frame.

    Is it worth buying ti if you buy down market ti? How do cheaper titanium framesets differ from the more upscale Moots, Seven, Litespeed, (insert custom shop here)... etc...

    Aside from the pretty welds are the 'spensive brands a much better ride?

    Any experience with the cheap Chinese ti frames?
    I can't imagine paying that much for a frame that very well could be suspect when the used market will put you on a complete ti bike from well established manufacturers for much less. Personal choice....free to do as your wallet wants so I'm not saying no, but man ti is a huge bargain right now. Yes ti can break, but I have never had an issue with ti since my first one in '91. Only sold them b/c I used to bite down on marketing gimmicks like a lot of us do If ti fits it could very well be the last bike you will ever 'need'. My Agilis has ~ 80K miles between myself and it's previous owner....not one issue other than me drooling on it.

    I'm going to look at a 2002 Merlin MTB with XTR for $600 and it's just loaded and looks perfect. Guy is desperate for money. eBay is chock full of killer deals on complete bikes and if you just want a frame you can get one for less than half of the $1,800 Chinese number.

    Ok that is my 2 cents on ti. Obviously I'm a ti lover. Have gone through every material to land back on ti.

  12. #62
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    See posts 9, 13 and 34 above.

    Quote Originally Posted by coyotegulch
    Have any of you heard of these guys www.pridecyclesusa.com? They have great prices on US titanium frames and are offering custom at the price of stock for February. I am considering ordering one, but haven't seen any comments on them.
    They talk about Pride cycles.

  13. #63
    Formosan Cyclocross
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    So, let me clarify this.

    The Carbon frames (and components?) are prototypes from Chinese fabrication houses.

    The Titanium frames are built/welded in ... (China?) and finished in Taiwan?
    "Finishing" means they are... inspected? detailed? ...?

    Velocite custom draws each frame design and engineers at Velocite participate in the design process, so these frames follow a design, fabrication and QC process under the direct supervision of Velocite?

    It would be wonderful if you could clear this up. I think clarity on these issues would help out a lot with your brand, as you can see there is lots of skepticism regarding the often dubious practices of many equipment companies that are heavy on marketing and light on quality.

    I appreciate your attempts to clarify these matters and I do wish you well on your brand. I hope your products can prove the skeptics wrong.

    A quality product is a paramount concern for cyclists who must put their trust in your product for the sake of safety and satisfaction. As an unknown company I am sure it is an up hill battle. Please understand my own and other cyclists tendency to be a little gun shy around an unknown series of products with marketing that offers so much at such discount prices. If it sounds too good to be true... it probably is. I hope this adage proves wrong.

    Best!

    DJS

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dajianshan
    So, let me clarify this.

    The Carbon frames (and components?) are prototypes from Chinese fabrication houses.
    No. They are not prototypes. They are finished products. EN tested and live tested = ridden by competitive racers to fine tune any issues WHILE the frames are in prototype stage.

    The Titanium frames are built/welded in ... (China?) and finished in Taiwan?
    "Finishing" means they are... inspected? detailed? ...?
    Yes, welded in China, hand finished and 100% QC inspected in Taiwan. "Finished" = shot peened, hand brushed/polished, put on alignment checking rack, all welds inspected and decaled.

    Velocite custom draws each frame design and engineers at Velocite participate in the design process, so these frames follow a design, fabrication and QC process under the direct supervision of Velocite?
    Custom draw. Not all products. For Selene and Millennium yes with some factory engineer consultation since we have the EN testing requirements and never stipulate a rider weight limit. With carbon frames we work with the factory engineers to come up with the final specifications. The factory engineers are the true materials and composite products manufacturing experts. Fabrication level (material, method, finish) and QC requirements are specified by us.


    It would be wonderful if you could clear this up. I think clarity on these issues would help out a lot with your brand, as you can see there is lots of skepticism regarding the often dubious practices of many equipment companies that are heavy on marketing and light on quality.
    Yes, the bike industry is unfortunately not very transparent and it is considered normal to market bike products using intangible qualities/benefits and unlikely claims.



    I appreciate your attempts to clarify these matters and I do wish you well on your brand. I hope your products can prove the skeptics wrong.

    A quality product is a paramount concern for cyclists who must put their trust in your product for the sake of safety and satisfaction. As an unknown company I am sure it is an up hill battle. Please understand my own and other cyclists tendency to be a little gun shy around an unknown series of products with marketing that offers so much at such discount prices. If it sounds too good to be true... it probably is. I hope this adage proves wrong.
    Completely understood. Offering actual value is actually the main driving philosophy of Velocite and one of the main reasons why we started the brand. Velocite is not about low price and miracles. There are no miracles in engineering, or in pricing thus we do not rely on either. Velocite's aim is to offer transparent, even interactive way to get a very high end product that is fully supported by an active community and factory warranties.

    It is indeed an uphill battle, and the one that has only just begun, but the objective is that the inherent value of what we are doing will drive us (ride us?) and our customers towards success.

    V.

  15. #65
    What it is
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    Tennessee Titanium

    Quote Originally Posted by coyotegulch
    Have any of you heard of these guys www.pridecyclesusa.com? They have great prices on US titanium frames and are offering custom at the price of stock for February. I am considering ordering one, but haven't seen any comments on them.
    Pride is located in Soddy Daisy, TN, which is just north of Chattanooga--home of Litespeed and Lynskey. The people at Pride likely have some connection with Litespeed or Lynskey in the past.

  16. #66
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    Chinese titanium

    I just ordered a Titanium custom road frame with S&S couplers for 880.00 bucks shipped to my door. Check out XACD titanium; web site. Don't know why your spending 1800.00. Just started to build mine up. The welds are very clean which means the miters are tight otherwise the flow of the welds would be compromised. Its Not Rocket Science. Just make sure you get your frame specs right it took me a while, A lot of drawings and numbers back and forth. The only issue I can think of would be contamination in tubing and around the welding environment. But since they have been building frames for twenty year they probably have that figured out.Any way thats my take on Chinese Ti. Good luck with your decision.
    .

  17. #67
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    LSL Titanium in Xian makes very nice Ti Frames.

    Just for what it is worth.

    They don't do custom but will do small orders.for teams or groups.
    Fai Mao
    A Proud Retrogrouch

  18. #68
    Luo
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    Hello, Everyone,

    This is my first day be here, this is my very first thread at roadbikereview.com

    Just be here is because I've happened to see this thread title "Cheap Chinese Titanium vs. Custom or Name Brand Titanium" on google.

    and as it happens, I am a normal person and right doing the titanium raw material exporting at a medium-size factory belongs to CHINA AEROSPACE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY CORPORATION ( CASC GROUP ), I guess some people may know this group, who is producing the rockets and others bla bla, if anyone don't know and interested, pls visit www.spacechina.com to know more of this group, CASC GROUP holds many factories, include some titanium material factories, we are one of them, and every month we producing huge quantity small and medium size diameter titanium wires and bars to our CASC Group self factories and many domestic big state-owned companies and private companies, we also exporting titanium and it's Alloy welding wires and other materials, products to worldwide customers for years. , some for welding, some for machine fasteners, application include rockets and missiles, medical field, petrochemical industry, vehicle and bicycle modifying and others.

    back to the above thread which attract me here,
    in a salesman side, many times many customers only give a very simple RFQ or drawing with vague description, and some parts the supplier even don't know it's final application environment, after the supplier offered this products, the surface mabe not clean and with defects, but this is do according his requirements.
    in customer side, he will become worried the quality of the products which he received, if he could offer a detail description RFQ or give an exact specification / standard to an reliable supplier, this would significantly reduce the risk of quality problems.

    do not let your actual needs hidden in your heart, and only have an illusion that you will receive perfect products without your detailed description.

    and meanwhile, I had read a great article which name is "What makes a good supplier?" at https://www.the-reseller-network.com...good-supplier/
    I've inspired a lot by this article, hope this article can get you inspired and help you guys find a good supplier too.

    in the end, pls do not have a racial prejudice on the Chinese normal people, we are the same with other races people, most Chinese are hard working, honest, kind and merciful.

    thank you for your stand my poor English and your patience.

  19. #69
    Matnlely Dregaend
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    9 year old thread resurrect... Impressive. How long before this guy gets banned?
    “Bicycling has done more to emancipate women than anything else in the world.” - Susan B. Anthony 1896
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  20. #70
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    Banned? I think his reply was considered and had some points to make. If you don't like it for what ever reason just move on, it's what I usually try and do.

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