The Cinelli XCr is one pretty bike - Page 3
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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by toomanybikes
    Clearly you are one of the Carbon Fibre is everything crowd. Good for you. Too bad for you.

    You think that paying $xx for a steel frame is a bad thing, if that frame is built by hand by an artisan that knows their craft.

    Yet you seem to think that paying $xx for a carbon fibre frame produced by injecting resin into a fully paid for, fully amortized mold is acceptable.

    I know where the greatest profit margin is for the builder and I know which I would rather own.

    We dis-agree fundamentally on what is of value and I will never agree with your definition of value.

    I also have NO desire to extend a pointless, and utterly worthless circuitous “argument” with you on the point, so I will just add you to my Ignore list right now.

    LOL,
    We disagree, so what. I agree that carbon is also overpriced but based on weight and performance, it blows steel away. Hence no steel frames in the pro peleton for the past 15 years or so. I agree the process of making a steel bike is more impressive, but $4600 for that frame is NOT A GOOD VALUE.

  2. #52
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    Not quite sure why so much value is put in 'weight' as mentioned a little way up. I have to admit a light bike has cafe cool (we all want one really), but we all really know a kg here or there makes bugger all difference on the road to most folk.

    I've got 16lb carbon bikes (which I think are dull and soleless) and 18-22lb steel boat anchors (which I love) and you know what, they all ride much the same. Some are custom, some have 55.5cm top tubes, most 56cm and one 57cm - on the road I can't tell the diff, they're all good to ride.

    I agree the Cinelli is pricey, but if you like you like and the extra grams won't make a diff to most. Not sure why there's no steel in the pro peleton but I very much doubt it's a weight thing.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyrider
    I almost picked one up from GVH about 5 or 6 years ago for $5-600. They obviously have a new business model and are resurrecting the name and putting out some nice carbon frames. There are other examples of previously high end brands that lost their focus that are not putting out some expensive carbon. The Xcr is an attention getter for the brand, but they aren't gonna make a living off of it.
    i think you misunderstand what the cinelli brand represents- cinelli IS columbus.

    the division exists largely to showcase the full range of current columbus tubing products, their construction methods, and component accessories for sale *to the industry* and still pay it's own way,turning a profit via retail sales to the consumer if possible.
    with each new columbus tubeset,columbus will incorporate that product into the cinelli brand bicycle lineup,often mixing and matching components to exhibit the products,their production versatility and potential assembly options that they(columbus) as a materials supplier can accomodate.
    for example the red 2004 aliante shown,uses a full TIG welded columbus airplane main triangle(upper-midlevel),a tusk fork(midlevel),link seatstays(budget) and super muscle chainstays(high end) and the then-new columbus twin plug cast btm bkt shell & intergated headset. later models would incorporate various combinations of new carve, tusk monocoque,muscle & mega carve carbon-graphite components and fittings as well as the columbus single plug btm bkt shell.

    one should also note that cinelli,while perfectly capable, over the years has historically avoided high profile advertising & bicycle frame sponsorship of uci pro tour teams to minimize conflict with their bicycle manufacturer clients. this unique-in-the-industry relationship as both industry supplier and retail bicycle & component manufacturer places cinelli in a sensitive and carefully measured business position- too small and the division cannot survive on its own, yet too large and it competes directly with its primary customer base with the potential loss of their core business.

    as for the seemingly high pricing for xcr, the costs not only reflect the uniqueness & exclusivity of a highly developed small volume,seamless butted stainless steel tubing product but also the unfavorably volatile current international exchange rates (lira to euro to us dollar) and incorporating a whole additional distribution network(wholesale PLUS retail) that a small,independant,direct sales domestic custom fabricator simply does not have to accomodate.

    btw- gvh sells overstock,discontinued,NOS and B stock inventory,many sourced outside of authorised distribution &lacking official warranties so the prices quoted do not reflect traditional mark-ups,support and pricing. imo, they are a reputable company and can offer great value esp when initial cost is a primary concern.
    Last edited by caterham; 05-19-2009 at 08:34 PM.

  4. #54
    toomanybikes
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyBoy
    .....


    Not sure why there's no steel in the pro peleton but I very much doubt it's a weight thing.
    Please don't open that one up.

    Safe to say that the bikes in the pro ranks are the ones that offer the greatest profit margin to the Mfr.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by toomanybikes
    Please don't open that one up.

    Safe to say that the bikes in the pro ranks are the ones that offer the greatest profit margin to the Mfr.
    Ooops. No doubt the weight comments'll get things cranking, mebe I should post it on weight weeneis forum to really get things going this arvo, teehee.

    Hey, can you see the pix above? On some posts I don't get to see 'em??? Could you kindly repost so I can enjoy those fine steel rides, or crap steel rides if you're into carbon .

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyBoy
    Ooops. No doubt the weight comments'll get things cranking, mebe I should post it on weight weeneis forum to really get things going this arvo, teehee.

    Hey, can you see the pix above? On some posts I don't get to see 'em??? Could you kindly repost so I can enjoy those fine steel rides, or crap steel rides if you're into carbon .
    which pix???

  7. #57

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    I love that frame set. For the price I might have to get a custom Responsorium. Either way i'd be happy with the purchase. In better economic times I would have snatched one up already.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by toomanybikes
    Please don't open that one up.

    Safe to say that the bikes in the pro ranks are the ones that offer the greatest profit margin to the Mfr.
    No,
    There is a 400-500 gram difference is weight and an increase in stiffness with a carbon frame. That was why aluminum was the material of choice that replaced steel and now carbon in the peleton. Lighter and stiffer. Case closed.

    There is nothing to "open" as there is no conspiracy. Steel is heavier and less stiff. It will never be the choice of the Peleton again. Steel still makes for a great ride, but one reserved for the more recreational or touring cyclist.

  9. #59
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    Hahahahahahahaaha


    Oh, sorry.

    Were you being serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyrider
    No,
    There is a 400-500 gram difference is weight and an increase in stiffness with a carbon frame. That was why aluminum was the material of choice that replaced steel and now carbon in the peleton. Lighter and stiffer. Case closed.

    There is nothing to "open" as there is no conspiracy. Steel is heavier and less stiff. It will never be the choice of the Peleton again. Steel still makes for a great ride, but one reserved for the more recreational or touring cyclist.

  10. #60
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    But steel dont snap like a twig from falling over.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyrider
    No,
    There is a 400-500 gram difference is weight and an increase in stiffness with a carbon frame. That was why aluminum was the material of choice that replaced steel and now carbon in the peleton. Lighter and stiffer. Case closed.

    There is nothing to "open" as there is no conspiracy. Steel is heavier and less stiff. It will never be the choice of the Peleton again. Steel still makes for a great ride, but one reserved for the more recreational or touring cyclist.

    A steel frame can be made plenty stiff, but you are right that it will be heavier than an equivalent weight carbon or aluminum frame. Only a fool will judge a frame based on weight though.

  12. #62
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    as for pro tour racing, the uci's minimum weight limit can be easily attained with a pretty ordinary aluminum frameset and off the shelf components. a modern lightweight steel frameset can come very close but would require a bit of weight-weenie-ism beyond what might be considered prudent for stage racing reliability.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessism
    A steel frame can be made plenty stiff, but you are right that it will be heavier than an equivalent weight carbon or aluminum frame. Only a fool will judge a frame based on weight though.
    Basically we are agreeing but people are getting defensive about frame material which is a little silly. Steel makes for a sublime ride, but is not the stiffest or the lightest material for a race bike today. Yes, it can be made stiff, yes it can be somewhat light, but there is a give and take with either. This is stating the obvious.

    Plus, the Xcr is grossly overpriced and a novelty frame. From a performance standpoint, there is not advantage in weight or stiffness for the premium paid for that frame. I would go for a custom Seven or Strong steel frame then.

  14. #64
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    I like Sheldon Brown's take on Cinellis:

    Cinelli

    Among the most sought-after of all vintage lightweights. A few heretics claim they are overrated. I say take a closer look and get a clue - or buy a Cannondale. Many Cinelli frames show exquisite mitering, smooth and even brazing, and lots of lug thinning. This is even true for many examples from the early 50's! Sure they have deep ugly file marks too - but that is only the surface! Add to the equation that many ride pretty close to perfection - at least as some would define it. Cinelli frames are also a visual feast with Italian style that just won't quit. In Japan, appreciation for Cinelli products is near cult-like.

    Over the past several years domestic prices have soared for prime examples. A Cinelli is an icon of cycling tradition. Sure, a few Cinelli frames have some lapses here and there - but don't miss the point. Cinelli frames defined the paradigm of a quality racing bike for decades.

    Late 40's to mid 50's models with Cinelli crest decal on forkblades are very rare! Road models under 58cm are perhaps worth about $4000. Track bikes, lower end tourers, or large bikes are worth perhaps $2,500. Mid 50's to late 60's top road models under 58cm should be worth $2,500.

    Models with rare parts, such as early Record cranks with the raised lip around the pedal threads should be worth perhaps $3,500. Size will matter.

    N.R. equipped bikes from 1968-1997 are prone to wide value fluctuations. For a brief period, such bikes in smaller sizes were very valuable in Japan. Prices have since fallen quite a bit due to Dollar/Yen changes and general economic conditions. Domestic prices now similar to those currently being paid by Japanese buyers. Figure bikes in guideline condition sized from 53cm to 59cm are worth about $2,400. Larger bikes seem to be worth somewhat less, while very large bikes (above 62cm) are probably worth only about $1,200. Smaller sizes in silver may be worth a bit more to buyers in Japan. It seems that Japanese buyers love Cinelli bikes in Silver!

    Cinelli track bikes are worth about $1,500. Chrome models are worth perhaps a bit more as is always the case.

    Model B Cinelli bikes are very nice but generally not worth more than $1,200.

    Around 1978 Cinelli was sold to the Columbo family. There are bikes with either the new or old logo's from this period. Until about 1980, while the graphics could go either way, the brake bridges and bottom bracket shells had new Cinelli logs making these bikes recognizable. Headbadge examples are worth more, perhaps $1,600, although modern logo bikes from the same period are just as good. From around 1980 until perhaps 1981 or 1982, Cinelli bikes with the new logo using a 26.2 seatpost and the lugs with 3 holes in each were very nice. Many do not consider these to be "real" Cinelli bikes, but they are at least as good as many of the earlier ones. Apparently either some very good builders from the previous period continued on, or work was contracted to outside builders of considerable talent. These bikes from this period deserve to be classics in their own right. Their geometry is upright, yet the ride is comfortable. These are bikes designed for the fast short distance riding so common in the United States. They, nonetheless, will handle mountain descents with ease as well! These bikes are worth perhaps $1,500 and are worth every penny and then some.

    Sometime around 1983 it all ended. The 26.2 sleeved seat lug was replaced wit a different cast model that used a 27.2 post. The familiar 3 hole lugs were gone as well. Quality during the following years took a pretty heavy hit as well. Many examples didn't even have chrome lugs. These examples in S.R. are worth about $800. By the late 80's quality improved and chrome lugs returned. It just, however, isn't the same.


    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/vrbn-a-f.html#cinelli
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  15. #65
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    Sheldon is dead, and he didn't own a Cinelli.

    I have a mid 80's model (84), and though it's Post Cino, apres Columbo, I wouldn't sell it at any price.

    Just ride.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by zmudshark
    Sheldon is dead, and he didn't own a Cinelli.
    Really odd/cold thing to say. Pretty sure Sheldon knew his bikes.
    .
    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by zmudshark
    Sheldon is dead, and he didn't own a Cinelli.

    I have a mid 80's model (84), and though it's Post Cino, apres Columbo, I wouldn't sell it at any price.

    Just ride.

    Like I said, Cinelli is trying to resurrect their name not unlike a lot of old reputable brands tend to do. Bianchi also lost focus recently too among others.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyrider
    Like I said, Cinelli is trying to resurrect their name not unlike a lot of old reputable brands tend to do. Bianchi also lost focus recently too among others.
    you really are a dense fellow,aren't you?

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock
    I like Sheldon Brown's take on Cinellis:
    excuse me but what in the world does posting sheldon's outdated valuation mumblings on corsa/supercorsa's have to do with this thread originally centered on the new stainless steel xcr frameset? i guess that you had nothing to really say or add to the topic but just had to post something,right?

    sheldon's world was vintage bikes and his world view had it that the whole universe turned dark and decayed in the mid-80's,when the french bicycle industry collapsed on itself from self-important complacency.
    that timeframe is over a quarter century old and gone and his cinelli piece is almost exclusively about the production run of what is essentially a single model,albeit a classic.

    paraphrased, his final paragraph boils down to 'post-cino cinelli built crap bikes in the 80's because they stopped drilling holes in their lugwork, and fergawdsakes even went so far as to stop chroming them for a time. they went and chromed them again later but "it's just not the same". and besides....how dare cinelli switch to a 27.2 standardized seatpost size?!!!! the horror,the horror!'
    wtf ?

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock
    Really odd/cold thing to say. Pretty sure Sheldon knew his bikes.
    .
    Hmm,

    shoulda' read further - Caterham basically beat me to it.

  21. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by caterham
    you really are a dense fellow,aren't you?
    He's even more popular over on Bikeforums.net.

  22. #72
    toomanybikes
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicSteel71
    He's even more popular over on Bikeforums.net.

    Ahh,

    That explains an awful lot.

    It really does.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by caterham
    excuse me but what in the world does posting sheldon's outdated valuation mumblings on corsa/supercorsa's have to do with this thread originally centered on the new stainless steel xcr frameset? i guess that you had nothing to really say or add to the topic but just had to post something,right?
    Wow... someone sure pissed in someone's Cheerios. Calm down, sparky.

    The central bone of contention in this thread has been "$4600 for a Cinelli, outrageous or not?", and also, "that can't be a valid buying decision, can it?". Sheldon's perspective on Cinellis as absolute classics with a long history that are worth a lot of money can be valuable here, as it illuminates why some ppl have been willing to pay top dollar for the Cinelli name and workmanship, and what that name means.

    But I guess that feeling like I can just shoot the breeze here on an Internet forum was too much to ask, and I should be much more careful to post only those things that are deemed 'directly relevant' by the resident forum Nazi. Achtung, herr Director!, an' all that.

    sheldon's world was vintage bikes and his world view had it that the whole universe turned dark and decayed in the mid-80's,when the french bicycle industry collapsed on itself from self-important complacency.
    that timeframe is over a quarter century old and gone and his cinelli piece is almost exclusively about the production run of what is essentially a single model,albeit a classic.

    paraphrased, his final paragraph boils down to 'post-cino cinelli built crap bikes in the 80's because they stopped drilling holes in their lugwork, and fergawdsakes even went so far as to stop chroming them for a time. they went and chromed them again later but "it's just not the same". and besides....how dare cinelli switch to a 27.2 standardized seatpost size?!!!! the horror,the horror!'
    wtf ?
    You have your opinion and Sheldon had his, and obviously you have a problem with Sheldon's. What of it? Any real need for all the hand-waving?

    Btw, 'WTFing' over his critique of small details seems rather silly, considering that that's much of what makes classic frames valuable or not valuable in many folks' minds... those little details. Sheldon's hardly unique in that regard, and if you have a problem with that way of thinking, you have a problem with an awful lot of collectors and much of the custom bike market as well.

    I do get where you're coming from, but there's no need to be that vehement about it. Sheldon contributed a lot to cycling, and if your intent was to ridicule him, it will be hard to take you seriously.
    .
    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock
    The central bone of contention in this thread has been "$4600 for a Cinelli, outrageous or not?", and also, "that can't be a valid buying decision, can it?". Sheldon's perspective on Cinellis as absolute classics with a long history that are worth a lot of money can be valuable here, as it illuminates why some ppl have been willing to pay top dollar for the Cinelli name and workmanship, and what that name means.
    it would have been helpful had you prefaced sheldon's treatise with your last entry,or bettter yet, posted this reply on its own without the brown quote. as it stood, i couldn't begin to understand your intentions and upon reading sheldon's words again,was struck with his very odd but highly specific dismisal of the later, columbo era supercorsa production.my apologies for any misunderstanding.

    regards,
    k

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by caterham
    it would have been helpful had you prefaced sheldon's treatise with your last entry,or bettter yet, posted this reply on its own without the brown quote. as it stood, i couldn't begin to understand your intentions and upon reading sheldon's words again,was struck with his very odd but highly specific dismisal of the later, columbo era supercorsa production.my apologies for any misunderstanding.

    regards,
    k
    Sorry if I got snippy too. I guess I just didn't expect such a strong reaction.

    In any case, the point was, if a $4600 stainless steel frame had a 'KHS' or 'Univega' decal on the side, no one would buy it. So there's a value-add in the Cinelli name, in terms of quality, reputation, history, story, catchet, etc, for those who see and highly value those things. Regardless of whether the carbon-fiber-crowd doesn't get it or doesn't care.

    As Sheldon said in that snippet, "Sure, a few Cinelli frames have some lapses here and there - but don't miss the point. Cinelli frames defined the paradigm of a quality racing bike for decades."

    I think that's well-put. And if you buy a CInelli, you're buying a piece of that (unless they someday sell the name to Wal-Mart or something ).
    .
    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


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