New Bike/Frameset Choices - Undecided - Page 3
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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    And Trek, Specialized or Cannondale don't make anything I'm interested in riding.
    BAMM!

    Nail, Meet Hammer.
    Too old to ride plastic

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    And Trek, Specialized or Cannondale don't make anything I'm interested in riding.
    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    BAMM!

    Nail, Meet Hammer.
    Exactly! Mainstreem products in general usually donít appeal to me, and bikes are no different. I have a pretty good idea of what I think I want, and cookie cutter, mass-produced bikes with cheap or base level components are not it!

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by TnTA2 View Post
    Exactly! Mainstreem products in general usually donít appeal to me, and bikes are no different. I have a pretty good idea of what I think I want, and cookie cutter, mass-produced bikes with cheap or base level components are not it!
    And you don't have to spend a fortune to get something different and fun to ride. Bought this Eddy Merckx frame off a guy on ebay for $750. A 1996 Corsa 01 that had been repainted. Carbon fork painted to match. It literally looked brand new. I bought a silver Athena 11 speed group and had some custom wheels made (kinda resemble Campy Shamals). Its a great riding bike. I always used to drool over them in the Colorado Cyclist catalogue.
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  4. #54
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    A Merckx was always on my "want" list. I almost got one years ago when my soon to be wife got me a 1st generation indexed Dura Ace Group, but I ended up getting a 2nd DeRosa. It's wearing a 10spd Centaur group these days.

    New Bike/Frameset Choices - Undecided-img_0635.jpg
    Old picture.

    The decal on the top tube reminds us that Eddy Merckx road one.
    Too old to ride plastic

  5. #55
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    Ti is expensive. I think thatís itís best selling point. I havenít test ridden Ti, I wouldnít do that to a seller without seriously considering buying the frame. If it was better in any way it would be raced by someone. Test rides are useless. I get my teeth kicked in on this regularly... If you are super experienced cyclist that has, not only thousands of miles under your legs, but also every frame material crossed with tons of Geo differences, than itís BUTT useless. For newbs? Completely useless. Random. IMO. I bought my Foil without a test ride because it had the Geo I wanted for the kind of riding I wanted it for. Test ride is a snapshot. In time. How that data is useful is arguable at best. Take multiple frame materials home set up identically and ride for months? Sure. FTW. But thatís silly. Ti has no magical properties. Neither does anything else. Decide what you want from your frame and buy that in a material you are comfortable with. CF is no lesser or longer lived than Ti. I can TOTALLY get a steel custom that you love t(e looks of. Itís cycling, we are concerned with looking good! I hate Celeste. But I wouldnít buy a Bianchi in any other color. Iíd focus on the specific Geo of the frame more than anything else. Iíd guess those numbers matter far more than frame materials. Ti is second rate if performance is a concern. Comfort is best dermined by Geo and tires. Frames come in bamboo. Get whatever you want. But if you care about performance... Iíd follow the elite model.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    If it was better in any way it would be raced by someone.
    Think about your statement. Racers are after wins. They will chase that last 1%, heck even less, performance gain to get the win. Carbon is typically the fastest bike in most given circumstances. Does that make it "better" for someone who is not racing. Not necessarily. I'm not racing, so even if carbon gave me 1% or even 5% more performance, that's not what I'm after. Saying Ti isn't "better" because no one races it is not really applicable to me, per se. Is speed and performance a consideration on my material choice? Yes. Sole determining factor? Absolutely not!

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by TnTA2 View Post
    Think about your statement. Racers are after wins. They will chase that last 1%, heck even less, performance gain to get the win. Carbon is typically the fastest bike in most given circumstances. Does that make it "better" for someone who is not racing. Not necessarily. I'm not racing, so even if carbon gave me 1% or even 5% more performance, that's not what I'm after. Saying Ti isn't "better" because no one races it is not really applicable to me, per se. Is speed and performance a consideration on my material choice? Yes. Sole determining factor? Absolutely not!
    Even if you arenít concerned with performance, the design is going to have a huge impact on the feel of the bike. Far, far more than the material. Thatís why testing a Ti bike isnít going to give you useful data about buying a Ti bike. Perhaps even that bike! Once you are fit and riding the feedback could be dramatically different. Iíve ridden steel, Al and CF. I couldnít say if any one was better the other... What is dramatic? The Geo differences. Huge. From sweeping and friendly to sharp as a scalpel and unforgiving. Iíd buy steel well before Ti. Itís cheaper and itís far easier to work the material. Given that there isnít any advantage to Ti, or no consistent, demonstrable or replicable advantage, Iíd be all about steel. I canít really figure out what Ti is for? What does it do to justify itself? What does it do better than steel or CF or Al? When I see a Ti frame on the road I donít think wow, I think why?
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  8. #58
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    Titanium bikes were all the rage in the 1990's. This was before the really light weight disposable aluminum frames came along (remember Reparto Corso?), soon to be replaced by carbon fiber. Titanium is a bit lighter than steel and a lot harder to work with, hence it's price. Back then it was cutting edge and everyone wanted it. These days, titanium bikes are kind of a niche market. But so are most steel bikes. A lot of folks probably ride them because its not what the herd is riding. I can respect that. I do find them incredibly pricey these days, probably reflecting the volume of sales. Go look on ebay for used titanium frames -- there's tons of them dirt cheap. I recently bought a Litespeed Classic (circa 2006) with a really nice Reynolds Ouzo Pro fork for $700. Buffed it up and it looks brand new. It sits in my basement as I contemplate do I really want another titanium bike? I know it'll ride differently than the Ultimate that I bought 20 years ago and refurbished in 2012 with all new everything. But that steel Merckx frame I bought is looking pretty attractive too. As is a Colnago C-64. And there is a limit to n+1.

    It has been a good bike -- indestructible, no paint to chip, a bit homely. I've ridden it all over the place -- even across Tuscany on the best vacation of a lifetime. But these days, I'm kind of liking my steel bikes. Maybe its my age. I've turned into one of those old guys on a Campy equipped steel bike that I used to laugh at.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    Titanium bikes were all the rage in the 1990's. This was before the really light weight disposable aluminum frames came along (remember Reparto Corso?), soon to be replaced by carbon fiber. Titanium is a bit lighter than steel and a lot harder to work with, hence it's price. Back then it was cutting edge and everyone wanted it. These days, titanium bikes are kind of a niche market. But so are most steel bikes. A lot of folks probably ride them because its not what the herd is riding. I can respect that. I do find them incredibly pricey these days, probably reflecting the volume of sales. Go look on ebay for used titanium frames -- there's tons of them dirt cheap. I recently bought a Litespeed Classic (circa 2006) with a really nice Reynolds Ouzo Pro fork for $700. Buffed it up and it looks brand new. It sits in my basement as I contemplate do I really want another titanium bike? I know it'll ride differently than the Ultimate that I bought 20 years ago and refurbished in 2012 with all new everything. But that steel Merckx frame I bought is looking pretty attractive too. As is a Colnago C-64. And there is a limit to n+1.

    It has been a good bike -- indestructible, no paint to chip, a bit homely. I've ridden it all over the place -- even across Tuscany on the best vacation of a lifetime. But these days, I'm kind of liking my steel bikes. Maybe its my age. I've turned into one of those old guys on a Campy equipped steel bike that I used to laugh at.
    Depends on the steel....generally, yes particualarly in the Days of Yore....

    But the modern high-end steel bicycle tubesets are so hard to work with that AFAIK Reynolds (for example) wouldn't even sell you 953 tubesets until they've consulted with you about fabrication techniques. 953 is that hard, butted that thin, and that easily ruined.

    Cycle Tubing & Tube Sets - Reynolds Technology

    In contrast to Ti, that while it is hard to weld right, you can buy bicycles specific tubing to your heart's content from Paragon Machine Works right now without anyone giving it a second thought.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Depends on the steel....generally, yes particualarly in the Days of Yore....

    But the modern high-end steel bicycle tubesets are so hard to work with that AFAIK Reynolds (for example) wouldn't even sell you 953 tubesets until they've consulted with you about fabrication techniques. 953 is that hard, butted that thin, and that easily ruined.

    Cycle Tubing & Tube Sets - Reynolds Technology
    That's true -- the new stainless tube sets that are apparently very difficult to work, very light weight with and really pricey. And I'd love to have one. Definitely more than a titanium bike that would be about the same price. I have seen a couple examples with big ugly welds though. And I do kinda like lugs.

    I was referring to steel as it was back in the 1990's. My 1996 Merckx Corsa 01 frame was pretty much the state of the art for steel back then (deda zerouno). That bike is similar in weight to my Litespeed.

  11. #61
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    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  12. #62
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    I guess its hard to get away from press fit 30 bottom brackets and compact geometry these days. Pros: standard size seat post, great looking paint and ENVE forks are very nice. I liked the 853 bikes Lemond sold through Trek years ago. They were quality frames. This is a much better idea than coming out with 953 bikes for $8000.

    Didn't he announce a collection of carbon frames to be sold as LeMond bikes a few years ago, but they never saw the light of day?

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    I guess its hard to get away from press fit 30 bottom brackets and compact geometry these days. Pros: standard size seat post, great looking paint and ENVE forks are very nice. I liked the 853 bikes Lemond sold through Trek years ago. They were quality frames. This is a much better idea than coming out with 953 bikes for $8000.

    Didn't he announce a collection of carbon frames to be sold as LeMond bikes a few years ago, but they never saw the light of day?
    Yes, he gave up on bikes then again on LeMond Composits which is still tied up in law suits! Itís a shame, that Washoe is 16lbs, affordable and seems to serve a nice niche market. And itís a great looking bike! (I think)
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Yes, he gave up on bikes then again on LeMond Composits which is still tied up in law suits! Itís a shame, that Washoe is 16lbs, affordable and seems to serve a nice niche market. And itís a great looking bike! (I think)
    Yeah, and all the world needs these days is another $10,000 gee whiz carbon bicycle. I hope he succeeds although you have to wonder who is going to distribute them. The earlier LeMond bikes were distributed through Trek, I believe, which gives access to a lot of bike shops. I think GL must not be a real easy guy to deal with. I sure would love to walk into my LBS and see a steel bike I'd want to buy.

  15. #65
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    LeMond Composites
    Hmmm.....

  16. #66
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    Bike fit

    Have you ever been fitted by a bike fitter?

    When I bought my first modern-ish road bike (back in 2004), the only bike fitting I had done was the complimentary one given by the bike shop. That was mainly to ensure that the frame wasn't too big for me. And there were no tweaks such as stem lengths, or handlebar widths. No tools to measure knee angles, no saddle mapping, no plumb bobs. It was just, "Hold the hood and tell me if you can see the front axle".

    Needless to say, the bike, as-sold, was not a good fit. And you can feel it too. Short rides of 5-10miles or even 15miles are fine. Its not until you get into triple digit miles with climbs and descents and everything in between that you know if the bike fits or not. And when you have pain/aches is how you know it does not fit.

    It was 10yrs later, when I decided to start riding again, did I get a proper bike fit from a bike fitter (not at a bike shop). It was $175 well-spent. My saddle and saddle height was changed, my handlebar width was changed, my stem length was changed. Pretty drastic changes. Before the bike fit, I had shoulder and knee pain after 100miles, pain that only went away after a few weeks. After the bike fit, shoulder/knee pain went away after a day.

    The bike fit should include a report showing your existing bike's geometry and what modifications needed to be done to fit you.

    From this report, I started researching for bike frames that would work for me. Some bike company's geometries just didn't work for me. Too much stand-over height, too much reach, or stack. Do your research and you will find bike companies that sell frame with geometries close to what your bike fit needs.

    As for titanium being too expensive, there are expensive ones, and some inexpensive ones. Do your research.

    For me, the Litespeed bikes and Lynskey bikes have geometries that are not a good fit for me, or I don't like them because of their choice of cable routing.

    It was only after a few months of researching that I found a titanium bike with a geometry that is close to my existing bike. (I have a Kinesis GF Ti)

    After buying and assembling the bike, its off to the bike fitter again. This time, the modifications to the bike were not as drastic. Slight change to the saddle height and stem length.

    You know you have your bike fit right when you have no lasting pain/aches after a long ride, 100+mile rides.

  17. #67
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    Agree with you that geometry is the most important, but I would not necessarily follow the mantra of 'if its good enough for the pros'.

    For me, I want an endurance geometry that can also handle rear panniers and saddlebags. Perhaps I want to do some touring. You'd be hard-pressed to find any bike frame that the 'elites' ride that have rack and fender mounts.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    When I see a Ti frame on the road I donít think wow, I think why?
    Geometry is king, but material choice is also important.

    Titanium frame on the road would be a fast touring bike, in all types of weather (no rust).

  19. #69
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    The word performance is being thrown around here like it only comes into play with race bikes and every other bike doesn't perform. There are high performance Rando, Gravel, Touring bikes as are there slugs. Shux there are Race bikes that are slugs. There's more to a touring bike than rack eyelets just as there's more to a rando bike than fenders. Different bikes are built to perform different tasks, some perform those tasks admirably some don't.

    My Rando bike, because of the low trail, rides with 10\15 lbs. in a handlebar bag like it wasn't there. The same load on a Race bike would introduce enough wheel flop that the bike would ride like a tank, so much for performance. That same low trail allows riding in gusting cross winds with much less buffeting than a Race bike with much higher trail. Different performance for different tasks. And a Touring bike will carry loads that would over whelm both a Rando or a Race bike, again different performance for different tasks.
    Too old to ride plastic

  20. #70
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    So ... did you do the test ride yet?

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    So ... did you do the test ride yet?
    Not yet. Should be on track to go out there the week of April 15. Iíll post an update after the visit.

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    UPDATE: Went to Chattanooga and had a great test ride on a size medium T5. We encountered many different surfaces over about 12-15 miles. Smooth pavement, broken pavement, boardwalk bridges, pea gravel pavement, concrete, railroad tracks, etc. I did not have any comfort or vibration issues. It felt as stiff as my aluminum frame but was much more compliant and smooth. Unlike carbon, there was no resonance or drivetrain noise transmitted into the frame; it was smooth and silent. I was surprised at how responsive the Ti felt and how close it was to the Parlee without being as twitchy and darty.

    The only issues sues I had was the stand over height being pretty much at the extent of where I felt comfortable straddling the bike with both feet on the ground, and also having to lower the seat post a bit more than I expected. Iíd also need a 90mm stem versus the 100mm they installed. Per my height, I fall squarely between their Small and Medium size frames, based on their specs and recommended sizes. I placed my order for the medium on the spot due to how good it felt on the test ride, even if it might be a hair larger than absolutely optimum.

    After arriving home and researching a bit, I began to second guess my decision on going with the medium. I called my LBS and asked his input on that specific frame and without hesitation he said Iíd need a size small. Now, this guy is known to fit people in an aggressive, competitive position, which is NOT what I want. So here I am, having made a decision on a frameset, but not 100% sure on the correct size. My Litespeed guy said I had 30 days to build up the medium and if I decided the small was the better size, I could exchange it. Or, if done soon enough I could probably have the order changed to a small before it gets too far along.

    Iím thinking about just letting the order go through for the medium and build it up at this point. If it doesnít work out, at most Iíd be out another drive to Chattanooga (not a bad thing!) and whatever labor the LBS would charge to swap parts. I could probably do it all myself, but I have very few bike tools and would need to buy a BB press tool, long 10mm Allen keys, BB cup tools (x2) at a minimum.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by TnTA2 View Post
    UPDATE: Went to Chattanooga and had a great test ride on a size medium T5. We encountered many different surfaces over about 12-15 miles. Smooth pavement, broken pavement, boardwalk bridges, pea gravel pavement, concrete, railroad tracks, etc. I did not have any comfort or vibration issues. It felt as stiff as my aluminum frame but was much more compliant and smooth. Unlike carbon, there was no resonance or drivetrain noise transmitted into the frame; it was smooth and silent. I was surprised at how responsive the Ti felt and how close it was to the Parlee without being as twitchy and darty.

    The only issues sues I had was the stand over height being pretty much at the extent of where I felt comfortable straddling the bike with both feet on the ground, and also having to lower the seat post a bit more than I expected. Iíd also need a 90mm stem versus the 100mm they installed. Per my height, I fall squarely between their Small and Medium size frames, based on their specs and recommended sizes. I placed my order for the medium on the spot due to how good it felt on the test ride, even if it might be a hair larger than absolutely optimum.

    After arriving home and researching a bit, I began to second guess my decision on going with the medium. I called my LBS and asked his input on that specific frame and without hesitation he said Iíd need a size small. Now, this guy is known to fit people in an aggressive, competitive position, which is NOT what I want. So here I am, having made a decision on a frameset, but not 100% sure on the correct size. My Litespeed guy said I had 30 days to build up the medium and if I decided the small was the better size, I could exchange it. Or, if done soon enough I could probably have the order changed to a small before it gets too far along.

    Iím thinking about just letting the order go through for the medium and build it up at this point. If it doesnít work out, at most Iíd be out another drive to Chattanooga (not a bad thing!) and whatever labor the LBS would charge to swap parts. I could probably do it all myself, but I have very few bike tools and would need to buy a BB press tool, long 10mm Allen keys, BB cup tools (x2) at a minimum.
    Sounds like it's too big for you. Is the seat lower than the bars? Is the top tube pressing against your crotch when you stand over it? I can't tell how well it fits without seeing you on it. And even then .... That's the trouble with bike companies these days making five sizes. When I bought my Litespeed years ago, they came in one centimeter increments. Even the more typical two centimeter increments result in a lot more choices.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    Sounds like it's too big for you. Is the seat lower than the bars? Is the top tube pressing against your crotch when you stand over it? I can't tell how well it fits without seeing you on it. And even then .... That's the trouble with bike companies these days making five sizes. When I bought my Litespeed years ago, they came in one centimeter increments. Even the more typical two centimeter increments result in a lot more choices.
    The seat was definitely not lower than the bars. The top tube didnít really leave any clearance, but according to what Iíve read, this is either an issue or not, depending on personal preference and the type of fit one is after. Iíve read Competitive Cyclist's definitions of the three types of fit (Competitive, Eddy Merckx, French) and my goal is less neck and shoulder strain, and a more relaxed position on the bike. I want to be able to ride 40 miles or more and not have my neck and shoulders hurting. I want to be able to just ride and be comfortable and rely on getting into the drops if I want to be faster and more aero. I also am no trying to ďlookĒ like a racer, so image is not important at all.

  25. #75
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    Typical thinking says go with the smaller size as it will be lighter and more responsive but are you after a race bike? The Lightspeed guys saw you on the bike and know their stuff.
    The medium sounds fine. It will be more relaxed and the longer tubes will dampen road buzz a touch more. Standover isn't that much of a factor on a road bike as long as you can touch the ground when at a stop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    It's full of factual errors. :nono:

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