Pinarello Dogma 2 $16,500 - Page 2
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 91
  1. #26
    Daft Punk built my hotrod
    Reputation: PaxRomana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,828
    Quote Originally Posted by chase196126 View Post
    Pinarello has treated our team well and it gets under my skin when people complain about their product because they dont want to pay the asking price.
    Cry me a river, Chase. You don't have to pay the asking price because you get a free one. Apparently, in your little planet, people shouldn't complain about pricing. Let me know when you decide to come back to reality. This entire board is dedicated to reviews. In other words, people opine on product AND pricing. Not sure why you need that obvious concept explained to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by chase196126 View Post
    I don't understand why so many are bothered by the pricing on these high end frames, especially when the diffent companies are producing a good product they will stand behind with a warrenty.
    Take an economics class, and maybe you will understand. Warranty? Try a 2-year warranty for the $16,500 bike. Yeah. They're really "willing to stand behind the product" all right. For a 2 years. You have no clue about the warranty process through Gita anyway, since you didn't buy yours. Read up on it, and you'll see multiple people who had paint fading issues after one year and found out that the warranty for paint is...ONE year.

    Quote Originally Posted by chase196126 View Post
    If Pina wants to price it at $16000 it is your choice if you dont want to buy. It's a premium product that some are willing to pay a premium price for. Calling someone who buys an expensive bike a nitwit for doing so is about as immature as you can get.
    No sh!t, skippy. Of course it's my choice. I'm also free to opine on whether people who spend $16k on that bike have far more money than common sense. But it's always nice to get the unbiased opinion of someone who gets the bike for free and is essentially paid to shill for the brand.

  2. #27
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    819
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyatt963 View Post
    You raised some very good points chase19126, and I now think it is good that there are some people out there who will spend this amount of money on a bike. It allows the technology of bikes to be elevated, and will eventually find its way to the lower priced bikes, therefor benefitting all of us.
    It all sounds good but it is a crock. Pinarello does not make its frames. It does not develop technology that filters down to its lower priced bikes. It uses the same materials, the same construction methods, and the same factories that the other big bike companies use. There is no factory in Taiwan where they use proprietary Pinarello technology that is not used in the construction of frames that the factory makes for other companies. The only thing that Pinarello does is paint frames made in Taiwan and then put a "Made in Italy" decal on them. Pinarello does little more than design the cosmetic look of its frame. It is little more than a marketing operation these days.

    Their high priced top end bikes do not eventually result in lower priced bikes. The purpose of these bikes is exactly the opposite. Pinarello's goal is not necessarily to sell many of them. The purpose is to set a high price point to make the mid priced bikes seem more reasonable. This is standard marketing 101. In other words, the purpose is to pull the prices of all of Pinarello's bikes upward.

  3. #28
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    2,078
    Quote Originally Posted by trailrunner68 View Post
    It all sounds good but it is a crock. Pinarello does not make its frames. It does not develop technology that filters down to its lower priced bikes. It uses the same materials, the same construction methods, and the same factories that the other big bike companies use. There is no factory in Taiwan where they use proprietary Pinarello technology that is not used in the construction of frames that the factory makes for other companies. The only thing that Pinarello does is paint frames made in Taiwan and then put a "Made in Italy" decal on them. Pinarello does little more than design the cosmetic look of its frame. It is little more than a marketing operation these days.

    Their high priced top end bikes do not eventually result in lower priced bikes. The purpose of these bikes is exactly the opposite. Pinarello's goal is not necessarily to sell many of them. The purpose is to set a high price point to make the mid priced bikes seem more reasonable. This is standard marketing 101. In other words, the purpose is to pull the prices of all of Pinarello's bikes upward.
    You are grossly understating, to the point of ignorance, the input that Pinarello has in the design and construction of their frames.


    If Mary Kate and Ashley can charge $39,000 for a backpack

    The Row - Fall

    I see no problem in Pinarello/Campy charging $16,500 for some cutting edge bike tech
    Who makes the moulds that are used in the manufacture of the frames?
    Who determines the lay up of the carbon on the frames?
    Who does the finite enlement analysis that leads to the frame design?

    They are not just sending a picture to China and slapping a few stickers on the final product.

  4. #29
    WTF = Wide Tire Fits
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    100
    PINARELLO dogma 2 carbon
    Material: Carbon 60HM1K Torayca®
    Rear Stay: Onda™ 2 Carbon 60HM1K
    Fork: Onda™ Carbon 60HM1K 1" 1/8 1" 1/2 integral system

    Has anybody ever seen a frame from another company with comparable materials?
    What's the points (e.g. scientific explanation) of making wavy forks and rear stays?

  5. #30
    Daft Punk built my hotrod
    Reputation: PaxRomana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,828
    Quote Originally Posted by WTFcyclist View Post
    PINARELLO dogma 2 carbon
    Material: Carbon 60HM1K Torayca®
    Rear Stay: Onda™ 2 Carbon 60HM1K
    Fork: Onda™ Carbon 60HM1K 1" 1/8 1" 1/2 integral system

    Has anybody ever seen a frame from another company with comparable materials?
    What's the points (e.g. scientific explanation) of making wavy forks and rear stays?
    Toray carbon? Everyone uses it. Most of the cheaper frames are made from T700. The higher-end frames are T1000. 60HM is just the modulus. 1k refers to the cosmetic weave.

    Pinarello is made by Carbotec in Taiwan, who makes frames for lots of other manufacturers. Martec does the same. There are only a few of these companies that basically burn carbon DVDs for bike brands all over the world.

  6. #31
    Daft Punk built my hotrod
    Reputation: PaxRomana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,828
    Quote Originally Posted by ewitz View Post
    You are grossly understating, to the point of ignorance, the input that Pinarello has in the design and construction of their frames.

    I see no problem in Pinarello/Campy charging $16,500 for some cutting edge bike tech
    Who makes the moulds that are used in the manufacture of the frames?
    Who determines the lay up of the carbon on the frames?
    Who does the finite enlement analysis that leads to the frame design?

    They are not just sending a picture to China and slapping a few stickers on the final product.
    And you are grossly overstating what Pinarello does. I've seen their factory. It's not some hi-tech operation. It's a paint shop. Do they do design? Sure. So does Orbea, Ridley, Cannondale, etc. To say that Pinarello is "cutting edge bike tech" is willfully swallowing a ton of marketing bs. There is nothing "cutting edge" about Pinarello except the price. I have owned 2 Pinarellos: Prince and Dogma FPX. Great bikes. They were more "cutting edge" when they were working with magnesium.

    Interesting that you bring up stickers. A lot of their new "paint jobs" are just that: stickers. That new sparkly area on the Dogma 2? Yep. It's a sticker. Pretty cutting edge, eh?

  7. #32
    WTF = Wide Tire Fits
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by PaxRomana View Post
    Toray carbon? Everyone uses it. Most of the cheaper frames are made from T700. The higher-end frames are T1000. 60HM is just the modulus. 1k refers to the cosmetic weave.
    I'm not even sure what "60HM (High Modulus?)" means. I look at the table on this article: Sounding Tech to Sell Bikes | Argonaut Cycles


    Toray carbon M60J: www.toraycfa.com%2Fpdfs%2FM60JDataSheet.pdf
    Or Tensile Modulus = 60msi

  8. #33
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    819
    Quote Originally Posted by ewitz View Post
    You are grossly understating, to the point of ignorance, the input that Pinarello has in the design and construction of their frames.


    If Mary Kate and Ashley can charge $39,000 for a backpack

    The Row - Fall

    I see no problem in Pinarello/Campy charging $16,500 for some cutting edge bike tech
    Who makes the moulds that are used in the manufacture of the frames?
    Who determines the lay up of the carbon on the frames?
    Who does the finite enlement analysis that leads to the frame design?

    They are not just sending a picture to China and slapping a few stickers on the final product.
    Cutting edge bike tech? LOL. There is nothing cutting edge in a Pinarello that you won't find in the latest generic carbon frame made by Flybike and sold on eBay for a few hundred bones. The "high tech design" is now fundamental stuff. The software can be bought by anyone. These days the important job their that designers do is deciding on the cosmetic look of the frame because that is the only way they have of differentiating their frame from others. Well, that and pouring a ton of money into pro cycling sponsorship.

  9. #34
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: chase196126's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    427
    Quote Originally Posted by PaxRomana View Post
    Cry me a river, Chase. You don't have to pay the asking price because you get a free one. Apparently, in your little planet, people shouldn't complain about pricing.


    No sh!t, skippy. Of course it's my choice. I'm also free to opine on whether people who spend $16k on that bike have far more money than common sense. But it's always nice to get the unbiased opinion of someone who gets the bike for free and is essentially paid to shill for the brand.
    In my little world I think it is absurd for people to cry out again the pricing of a premium product as though a brand is attacking them personally. We aren't discussing the cost of food or heating, these are items that for 99.9% of the world are extreme luxury items. There will always be people willing to pay a large sum of money for a technology or item that is cutting edge or "exclusive", ranging from computers to wrist watches. You complain about the economics of bikes being priced this high, but why? My guess is that prices like Pinarello's push up the cost of other high end bikes which then makes owning the "best" much more expensive. Yet, the technology that is cutting edge now will be "low end" and relatively cheap in 5 years but it will not carry the cache of being the "best" anymore, which makes it less desirable to you.

    I wonder, where is your breaking point in price that takes someone from a savvy buyer to a nitwit for bicycling gear? Do you ride a road bike that costs more than $400? A bike that most people on this site would consider "entry level" costs 4-5 times that, yet is going to offer very little in the way of real world benefit. Does that make all those people nitwits? They are paying much more for something they want and enjoy, not because they need that nicer item. The actual differences between the $400 bike and an Allez are extremely small, just as the difference between a $4000 Cervelo and the Pinarello is extremely small, but some are willing to pay the extra price to have something they will enjoy. That is the point of luxury hobbies and products.

    Calling others nitwits for buying something they enjoy while partaking in the same practice is hypocritical as well as helping propagate the general belief that roadies are a bunch of judgmental pricks.

    Also:
    I enjoy talking about bike tech, it's one of my biggest passions. I have had an account on this site (and several others) for much longer than I have been paid to ride. Feel free to discount my opinion, but I am not shilling for anyone. The opinion I have stated here stands for any bike company's pricing, from the McClaren Specialized to the Cervelo R5CA.

    I readily admit I don't have experience buying from Pinarello or Gita, and I don't have experience with their warranty system, so I don't comment on threads involving them because I have nothing valuable to contribute.
    Last edited by chase196126; 02-04-2012 at 01:12 PM.

  10. #35
    PRB
    PRB is offline
    Bibo Ergo Sum
    Reputation: PRB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    1,400
    I think there's a huge lack of value for your money in something like the Pinarello. When a bicycle costs the same as Ducati's (base) top of the line model there's something seriously wrong. As I stated in another thread on a similar subject, "I couldn't imagine paying even $5k for a bike if the frame was hand built by Eddy Merckx, the bike assembled by Jacques Anquetil, test ridden by Fausto Coppi and packed in the box by Felice Gimondi." Obviously I'm in the minority considering how many +$5k bikes are sold but that still doesn't mean they're getting value for their money. If someone wants to spend that kind of money on a bike I'm not going to stop them....it's their money and they can do as they wish. However, they shouldn't expect me to think they spent it wisely nor should they expect me not to be LMAO inside.

    There was a time when a Pinarello was a special bike and I lusted after one. Now they (sadly, like many other companies) are just another cookie cutter marketing machine and I wouldn't own one if someone gave it to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by chase196126 View Post
    The actual differences between the $400 bike and an Allez are extremely small, just as the difference between a $4000 Cervelo and the Pinarello is extremely small, but some are willing to pay the extra price to have something they will enjoy.
    There's a much larger difference between that $400 bike and the Allez than there is between the Cervelo and the Pinarello. Orders of magnitude in fact.
    Four wheels move your body, two wheels move your soul.

  11. #36
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: chase196126's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    427
    PRB: I agree that this Dogma is not a value item in any way. It's priced exorbitantly high because they are selling a very limited stock to a very limited market place. The people buying these are paying for the exclusivity of having 1 of 50 or so that will enter the USA. To them this exclusivity may be worth the $16000 price tag


    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    There's a much larger difference between that $400 bike and the Allez than there is between the Cervelo and the Pinarello. Orders of magnitude in fact.
    I disagree with this statement.
    This $399 bike for a quick example: Save up to 60% off new Road Bikes - Gravity Liberty 2 | Save up to 60% off new road bikes

    It has hood based shifting that is almost a full copy of Shimano, heavy duty wheels, an aluminum frame with an integrated headset, etc.

    The cheapest Allez MSRP is $1350. Compared to the bikesdirect bike you get 2 more speeds in the rear, a bit lighter bike overall, and a frame that has a tapered head tube that is going to be a bit stiffer, but it will cost 3 times as much.

    There are no truly major differences between the two bikes functionally and I argue that your riding speed would not differ significantly between the two. Both will shift gears, go fast if you push them, with comparable tires both will feel extremely close in ride quality. However, I know which of the two I would prefer and that is the Allez for sure. I just can't argue that I would need the Allez to ride. It would be a choice based on getting the bike I like better and not going for the absolute best functional value.

    The same would go for the Cervelo and Pinarello. The electronic 11 speed and integrated frame isn't necessary, but (for me) it would certainly make riding a more exciting/pleasurable experience because I would get to ride really cool high end stuff.

  12. #37
    Daft Punk built my hotrod
    Reputation: PaxRomana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,828
    Quote Originally Posted by chase196126 View Post
    In my little world I think it is absurd for people to cry out again the pricing of a premium product as though a brand is attacking them personally. We aren't discussing the cost of food or heating, these are items that for 99.9% of the world are extreme luxury items. There will always be people willing to pay a large sum of money for a technology or item that is cutting edge or "exclusive", ranging from computers to wrist watches. You complain about the economics of bikes being priced this high, but why? My guess is that prices like Pinarello's push up the cost of other high end bikes which then makes owning the "best" much more expensive. Yet, the technology that is cutting edge now will be "low end" and relatively cheap in 5 years but it will not carry the cache of being the "best" anymore, which makes it less desirable to you.
    Pinarello isn't attacking me personally, so there is no use inventing strawmen. I have owned two Pinarellos, a Prince and a Dogma FPX (I paid $999 for it on Bonktown). I have owned bikes from Time, Moots, BMC, Kuota, Orbea, Cannondale, etc.

    There isn't anything "cutting edge" about Pinarello, IMO. What do you find "cutting edge" about it? Wavy stays? The fact that they're mass produced in Taiwan? You're confusing "cutting edge" in price with "cutting edge" in quality. They're a marketing machine. The bikes are nice, sure, but they're really nothing special. I'm sorry that you've created some make-believe world where nobody should be allowed to complain about price, but don't confuse that with reality.

    $5750 for a Dogma2 is stupid. There's no high tech there. Want to see real bike manufacturing? Take a look at the Time factory. Yeah, Flybike had such a hard time copying the Pinarello because it's so "cutting edge". You see them trying to copy Time? Thought not. Copying quality is a bit harder.

  13. #38
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: chase196126's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    427
    Quote Originally Posted by PaxRomana View Post
    There isn't anything "cutting edge" about Pinarello, IMO. What do you find "cutting edge" about it? Wavy stays? The fact that they're mass produced in Taiwan? You're confusing "cutting edge" in price with "cutting edge" in quality. They're a marketing machine. The bikes are nice, sure, but they're really nothing special. I'm sorry that you've created some make-believe world where nobody should be allowed to complain about price, but don't confuse that with reality.

    $5750 for a Dogma2 is stupid. There's no high tech there. Want to see real bike manufacturing? Take a look at the Time factory. Yeah, Flybike had such a hard time copying the Pinarello because it's so "cutting edge". You see them trying to copy Time? Thought not.
    What bikes do you consider cutting edge? Out of your collection Cannondale, Orbea, Kuota, and Pinarello are all produced in Taiwan. That doesn't make them any worse than your Time, BMC or your Moots.

    If anything TIME is using outdated carbon techniques with their lugged designs, still producing integrated seat posts that most have come to consider a gimmick, and peddling BS aero claims on their ridiculously shaped road bike tubes. Moots is playing around with a material that has long since been abandoned by all but niche markets, and BMC was produced in Taiwan until recently. Yet their new Swiss factory has been unable to get their newest IMPEC frame out to the market within 2 years of it being shown to the public.

    I like my Pinarello because it is extremely stiff which leads to very good handling for racing as well as a very solid feeling bike. The frame is more durable than the ultralight frames that are in pieces after a single crash or even tipping over at a coffee shop. The ride quality is great for my style of riding and I prefer a frame built with ride quality and handling in mind rather than ultra light weight. Those characteristics are what I value in a high end bike and consider cutting edge. I don't consider 700 gram frames that ride like wood and require 3 pounds of chain stuffed in their seatpost to be cutting edge. Neither, I think, do Protour riders who request such bikes to be built with extra plies of carbon to stiffen them up. Not that my opinion will register with you because I am a paid shill

    I've never claimed you can't complain about price, but just as the high price gets under your skin your flawed logic and absurd complaining about the pricing of a luxury item gets under mine and I am as happy and free to express my opinions as you are yours.
    Last edited by chase196126; 02-04-2012 at 04:43 PM.

  14. #39
    Daft Punk built my hotrod
    Reputation: PaxRomana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,828
    Quote Originally Posted by chase196126 View Post
    What bikes do you consider cutting edge? Out of your collection Cannondale, Orbea, Kuota, and Pinarello are all produced in Taiwan. That doesn't make them any worse than your Time, BMC or your Moots.

    If anything TIME is using outdated carbon techniques with their lugged designs, still producing integrated seat posts that most have come to consider a gimmick, and peddling BS aero claims on their ridiculously shaped road bike tubes. Moots is playing around with a material that has long since been abandoned by all but niche markets, and BMC was produced in Taiwan until recently. Yet their new Swiss factory has been unable to get their newest IMPEC frame out to the market within 2 years of it being shown to the public.

    I like my Pinarello because it is extremely stiff which leads to very good handling for racing as well as a very solid feeling bike. The frame is more durable than the ultralight frames that are in pieces after a single crash or even tipping over at a coffee shop. The ride quality is great for my style of riding and I prefer a frame built with ride quality and handling in mind rather than ultra light weight. Those characteristics are what I value in a high end bike and consider cutting edge. I don't consider 700 gram frames that ride like wood and require 3 pounds of chain stuffed in their seatpost to be cutting edge. Neither, I think, do Protour riders who request such bikes to be built with extra plies of carbon to stiffen them up. Not that my opinion will register with you because I am a paid shill

    I've never claimed you can't complain about price, but just as the high price gets under your skin your flawed logic and absurd complaining about the pricing of a luxury item gets under mine and I am as happy and free to express my opinions as you are yours.
    Claiming lugged designs are "outdated" just shows how little you understand bike technology. Lugged frames are harder to manufacture than your run-of-the mill carbon monocoque frame mass produced in the Far East. They're "outdated" because they're harder to make and harder to reproduce in mass quantities. Companies have mored their production to the Far East in order to take advantage of production on a massive scale. That's why everybody's yapping about monocoque frames. Companies sell them because they're cheap to make.

    Time's manufacturing techniques are so "outdated" that BMC spent millions making a factory that builds frames like...you guessed it...Time. I am guessing you've never ridden a Time or you'd know the difference between it and your average Trek or Pinarello.

    I agree about the ultra-lightweight frames. They're silly. But those are also considered "cutting edge" by their fans. Time isn't super lightweight. Neither is the Colnago C59, which, unlike Pinarello, is actually REALLY made in Italy. I'm guessing that even that "Made in Italy" sticker is actually made in China or Taiwan.

    Pinarello is a luxury item in name only. In that sense, it's a fraud, exactly in the same way as its "Made in Italy" sticker is a fraud. If you're claiming that made in Taiwan is just as good as made in France or elsewhere, why put Made in Italy. It's the perception that sells Pinarellos, not the quality. It's interesting that you call Time's use of the integrated seatpost a "gimmick" when that is exactly what Pinarello has based their entire pricing upon.

    When you say that Moots is "playing around", you're...well... really starting to show how little you know about technology. But that's ok. You're young and you'll learn.

  15. #40
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: chase196126's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    427
    Quote Originally Posted by PaxRomana View Post
    Claiming lugged designs are "outdated" just shows how little you understand bike technology. Lugged frames are harder to manufacture than your run-of-the mill carbon monocoque frame mass produced in the Far East. They're "outdated" because they're harder to make and harder to reproduce in mass quantities. Companies have mored their production to the Far East in order to take advantage of production on a massive scale. That's why everybody's yapping about monocoque frames. Companies sell them because they're cheap to make.

    Time's manufacturing techniques are so "outdated" that BMC spent millions making a factory that builds frames like...you guessed it...Time. I am guessing you've never ridden a Time or you'd know the difference between it and your average Trek or Pinarello.

    I agree about the ultra-lightweight frames. They're silly. But those are also considered "cutting edge" by their fans. Time isn't super lightweight. Neither is the Colnago C59, which, unlike Pinarello, is actually REALLY made in Italy. I'm guessing that even that "Made in Italy" sticker is actually made in China or Taiwan.

    Pinarello is a luxury item in name only. In that sense, it's a fraud, exactly in the same way as its "Made in Italy" sticker is a fraud. If you're claiming that made in Taiwan is just as good as made in France or elsewhere, why put Made in Italy. It's the perception that sells Pinarellos, not the quality. It's interesting that you call Time's use of the integrated seatpost a "gimmick" when that is exactly what Pinarello has based their entire pricing upon.

    When you say that Moots is "playing around", you're...well... really starting to show how little you know about technology. But that's ok. You're young and you'll learn.
    Pretty interesting the the BMC IMPEC wasn't used by any of the BMC riders if they could avoid it... The team, including Cadel, very much preferred BMC's standard monocoque construction frames.

    You haven't explained why lugged carbon is so much better than monocoque, only that it is more difficult to make. Since I am so technologically naive, enlighten me on why lugged technology is so much better, as well as why frames made in Taiwan are any worse than those made in Italy.

    Moots makes great bikes that are nice boutique titanium frames that will last a lifetime if taken care of, but you cannot argue that Titanium is on the cutting edge of materials for bicycles. Ti is a niche market, and Moots makes great top of the end bikes for that market.

    Personally, I don't care where my bike is manufactured. The Pinarello is a fantastic frame for me and the way it rides is what makes me like it, not where it was manufactured.

  16. #41
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: SevensRacer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    72
    $16K is a lot of money for just a bicycle. Sure, there will be some people buying it and I won't be against them. But for me, if I was going to buy a bike for $16k, I would rather get a Ducati or Yamaha sportbike and use the rest of the money for formal training and experience in handling a motorcycle.

  17. #42
    Formosan Cyclocross
    Reputation: Dajianshan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    3,378
    Where some bikes differ from others is in the layering of the carbon fiber. Some of the more expensive models spend a little more care in strategically layering their CF weaves. This is time consuming and may warrant a bump in price... but not that high.

    As far as "cutting edge" goes.... I have the opportunity to chat quite often with some of the people behind a lot of the bikes on the market. One comment keeps coming back. A few of the industry engineers regard Cervelo as the gold standard for complex and strategic layering. I am not a Cervelo owner and you wouldn't expect an engineer from a rival company to make such a statement... but there you are. I was surprised as well.The Pinarello Dogma is a good bike, but the care taken in the layering scheme is not as complex as what you might find in Cervelo.

  18. #43
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: foofighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,234
    how much of that 16k is the Campy EPS gruppo? Because if I remember the dogma frameset is $5500 or so...that being said if you have 16k to blow and you love your Italian bikes do it!

    This kind of spending is definitely for those with a lot of disposable income, I certainly wouldn't tell a Ferrari driver around my part of the OC that he over paid for his car that gets him from point A to point B the same way as the $7k Kia. You cant put a price on someone's wants and desires. All this stuff about high tech this and that are just RATIONALES for spending that kind of money on a bike that you actually have to pedal to move. It's a free market economy and if they have the means I'm not going to question it. I will look admirably at their bike and smile when I drop them on my $600 steel Nashbar bike Help our economy.
    Ride More Talk Less
    - Caletti Cycles Custom Steel
    - 11 Nashbar Steel CX
    Terminal Pholocity

  19. #44
    Daft Punk built my hotrod
    Reputation: PaxRomana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,828
    Quote Originally Posted by chase196126 View Post
    Pretty interesting the the BMC IMPEC wasn't used by any of the BMC riders if they could avoid it... The team, including Cadel, very much preferred BMC's standard monocoque construction frames.

    You haven't explained why lugged carbon is so much better than monocoque, only that it is more difficult to make. Since I am so technologically naive, enlighten me on why lugged technology is so much better, as well as why frames made in Taiwan are any worse than those made in Italy.

    Moots makes great bikes that are nice boutique titanium frames that will last a lifetime if taken care of, but you cannot argue that Titanium is on the cutting edge of materials for bicycles. Ti is a niche market, and Moots makes great top of the end bikes for that market.

    Personally, I don't care where my bike is manufactured. The Pinarello is a fantastic frame for me and the way it rides is what makes me like it, not where it was manufactured.
    Lugged technology has the advantage of repair. You can send your bike back to Time in the event a tube cracks and they can replace it. You break a monocoque frame, and unless Calfee can work their magic, it's toast. Not that it really matters since they're usually just mass produced copies. Time's advantage is that they weave their own carbon. They can thus tune the ride exactly for the model by adding different types of strands. That's is why their bikes go well beyond the level that Pinarello attains.

    On marketing, Pinarello is miles ahead.

    BMC tried to use Time's approach using robots and, so far, they haven't succeeded in perfecting the process. Time uses people and has done this successfully for years.

    Anyway, I'm not sure what you define as "cutting edge" for bicycle materials or design. Most of them use carbon. It's relatively cheap and easy to mass produce.

    Personally, my favorite bikes have been my Times, Cannondale System Six (US Made), Moots Vamoots (US Made), Pinarello Dogma FPX (Italian), and yes, I really like the Prince as well. I would have never paid retail for it though.

    I am happy that you like your Dogma. Ultimately, the fact is you never had to make the cost-benefit analysis. I am opining as somebody who has made the cost-benefit analysis and has decided the benefits do not justify the cost by a large margin.

  20. #45
    classiquesklassieker
    Reputation: orange_julius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    3,106
    Quote Originally Posted by PaxRomana View Post
    Lugged technology has the advantage of repair. You can send your bike back to Time in the event a tube cracks and they can replace it. You break a monocoque frame, and unless Calfee can work their magic, it's toast. Not that it really matters since they're usually just mass produced copies. Time's advantage is that they weave their own carbon. They can thus tune the ride exactly for the model by adding different types of strands. That's is why their bikes go well beyond the level that Pinarello attains.

    On marketing, Pinarello is miles ahead.

    BMC tried to use Time's approach using robots and, so far, they haven't succeeded in perfecting the process. Time uses people and has done this successfully for years.

    Anyway, I'm not sure what you define as "cutting edge" for bicycle materials or design. Most of them use carbon. It's relatively cheap and easy to mass produce.

    Personally, my favorite bikes have been my Times, Cannondale System Six (US Made), Moots Vamoots (US Made), Pinarello Dogma FPX (Italian), and yes, I really like the Prince as well. I would have never paid retail for it though.

    I am happy that you like your Dogma. Ultimately, the fact is you never had to make the cost-benefit analysis. I am opining as somebody who has made the cost-benefit analysis and has decided the benefits do not justify the cost by a large margin.
    Not disagreeing specifically with what you are saying about lugged versus monoque, but in terms of construction of the raw material (carbon sheets, lugs, tubes, etc.) leading into the construction of the final product, aren't there quite a large number of factors to consider before it is possible to compare apples-to-apples?

    For example, your citing TIME as an example of a cutting-edge manufacturer who weaves their own tubes, isn't that also because they use a different bonding process (resin infusion) than most (pre-preg)? This is hard to explain to most people, so marketing gets busy with proprietary names like 60HM1k, T800, etc etc., as if they were all unique to that frame maker.

    Anyways, just citing discussion points from other threads:
    http://forums.roadbikereview.com/3627298-post10.html
    http://forums.roadbikereview.com/3627370-post11.html

    And also a white paper from Calfee, covering lugged versus monocoque carbon construction:
    http://www.calfeedesign.com/tech-pap...l-white-paper/

    The white paper distinguishes between Carbon Tubes/Molded Carbon Lugs, Foam-Core versus Bladder-Molded monocoque, and Carbon Tubes/Carbon Joints/Pressure Lamination. Not sure if this last one refers to tube-to-tube or not.

  21. #46
    classiquesklassieker
    Reputation: orange_julius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    3,106
    Quote Originally Posted by chase196126 View Post
    Pretty interesting the the BMC IMPEC wasn't used by any of the BMC riders if they could avoid it... The team, including Cadel, very much preferred BMC's standard monocoque construction frames.

    You haven't explained why lugged carbon is so much better than monocoque, only that it is more difficult to make. Since I am so technologically naive, enlighten me on why lugged technology is so much better, as well as why frames made in Taiwan are any worse than those made in Italy.

    Moots makes great bikes that are nice boutique titanium frames that will last a lifetime if taken care of, but you cannot argue that Titanium is on the cutting edge of materials for bicycles. Ti is a niche market, and Moots makes great top of the end bikes for that market.

    Personally, I don't care where my bike is manufactured. The Pinarello is a fantastic frame for me and the way it rides is what makes me like it, not where it was manufactured.
    Speaking of manufacturing, Pinarello for some time had this on their website, but it appears they removed it recently. At least, I can't find it on their website anymore.

    Here's a great website CyclingIQ where I got it from.
    Princes, thieves and make-believe | Pinarello fights for its name «

    The wording of the last sentence is a bit ambiguous, and may lead one to think that Toray provides "carbon for bikes" only to Pinarello - this is not true, lots of builders buy from Toray, too, just google around. But being more precise, Pinarello claims Toray provides only them with the "best carbon in the market", what ever that means.

    By the way, CyclingIQ has a great article series covering the evolution of frame makers in Taiwan and the PRC. A lot of (American, Italian, etc.) companies buy not only production, but also the design of the frames that they then market. DeRosa has been outed on this board for doing this.

    Considering that nobody can argue against the fact that a vast majority of carbon material production is done in East Asia, can we still argue that "western" companies know best about carbon production? For real, Toray even provides prepreg carbon for EADS to make Airbus planes. Do you think Airbus is going to be "designing" carbon fiber and telling Toray to make it so? No way. Airbus will do the structural design based on specs (modulus, tensile strength, weight,etc.) and ask Toray to work with them to best manufacture carbon fiber that meets that spec. So who has the magic sauce for carbon fibert? Toray does.

    Sure, the "western" frame manufacturers can specify, "stiffer tubes for chainstay" but they ain't telling Toray to change the chemistry of the resin to use. As to who does the FEA, I tend to think it makes more sense for the party responsible for the monocoque production to do it, meaning the Taiwanese sub-contractor. They work more closely with the carbon provider than the marketing part of the company does.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  22. #47
    Daft Punk built my hotrod
    Reputation: PaxRomana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,828
    Good posts, Orange Julius.

    Interestingly, to follow up on your comment that companies even outsource their design, I think this is quite true. I ordered a few sample frames years ago from a company called Trigon (Taiwanese manufacturer). I was curious to see what they were like. I was quite impressed. Anyway, in the box came a catalog.

    The catalog showed multiple options for tube shapes, design, etc., from which a customer could choose. You could have diamond shapes, round, ISP, etc. So, essentially, they did all the design and then a company like Blue just picked what they wanted.

    I am certainly not impugning the ability of Taiwanese manufacturers to make high-quality carbon bicycles. The do it quite well. However, I disagree with Chase that simply because a frame is monocoque and made in Taiwan, it is "cutting edge". Pinarello's "cutting edge" is using a polystyrene form instead of a bladder, so they claim that makes the inside look almost as good as the outside.

    They market this stuff as though it was something novel. It's not. Foam core molding has been around for a long time. Here's a discussion from Triathlete magazine from 2008.

    Carbon Fiber Frame Manufacturing Techniques, Part One of a Three Part Series on Carbon Fiber | Fit Werx: Road Bike and Triathlon Bike Fitting Specialists

    Colnago has been known for having the inside of the frame look nearly the same as the outside for awhile now.

    Nano-alloy? Available to anyone. Toray refers to it as "impact absorbing plastic." Toray may be cutting edge. Pinarello just uses what's available to anyone else. Of course, you don't hear them mention the word "plastic", since that doesn't sell $6000 frames with a pathetic 2 year warranty.

    Asymmetric frame? Time bicycles did that with the VXRS years ago. Pinarello just promoted it as though they came up with it.

  23. #48
    Daft Punk built my hotrod
    Reputation: PaxRomana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,828
    Check out this load of BS from Competitive Cyclist.

    "The other advancement of note is the actual manufacturing process used for the Dogma 2. Pinarello employs a polystyrene form as a base for the initial lay-up of material during its construction. This enables a more precise method; each layer is placed exactly where it's designed to be according to the FEA testing. In this regard, it's a more reliable and consistent method than molding with an internal bladder. The use of polystyrene also results in even compaction of the laminate, with less wrinkling of the carbon material or trapped gas/resin that could cause structural weak spots over time. The form is removed with a recoverable solvent. What you'll find on the inside of the Dogma 2 is a smooth finish that nearly matches the outside."

    1. It's not Pinarello that does this. It's Carbotec in Taiwan.
    2. This isn't an advancement for the rest of the planet, who have been using this process for many years. Maybe it's an advancement for "cutting edge" Pinarello.

  24. #49
    Old and Fixed, Moderator
    Reputation: Dave Hickey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    20,473
    Quote Originally Posted by Dajianshan View Post
    Where some bikes differ from others is in the layering of the carbon fiber. Some of the more expensive models spend a little more care in strategically layering their CF weaves. This is time consuming and may warrant a bump in price... but not that high.

    As far as "cutting edge" goes.... I have the opportunity to chat quite often with some of the people behind a lot of the bikes on the market. One comment keeps coming back. A few of the industry engineers regard Cervelo as the gold standard for complex and strategic layering. I am not a Cervelo owner and you wouldn't expect an engineer from a rival company to make such a statement... but there you are. I was surprised as well.The Pinarello Dogma is a good bike, but the care taken in the layering scheme is not as complex as what you might find in Cervelo.
    This is my issue with the entire copy cat frame debate....anyone can make a frame that looks exactly like ...

    Most high end frames consist of over 200 different pieces of carbon.....They are laid in a mold with different orientation, thicknesses, etc.... all of this is done to provide a certain ride characteristic..

    Do these copy cat frames do the same? who knows.... Unless someone actually has seen them being produced, we will never know....

    I'm not suggesting that a high end frame is worth 10x the price but it's senseless to suggest they are the same as the cheap knockoff stuff based strictly on outward appearance....just because it looks the same doesn't mean it's the same....
    Dave Hickey/ Fort Worth

    My 3Rensho Blog: http://vintage3rensholove.blogspot.com/

  25. #50
    Daft Punk built my hotrod
    Reputation: PaxRomana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,828
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hickey View Post
    This is my issue with the entire copy cat frame debate....anyone can make a frame that looks exactly like ...

    Most high end frames consist of over 200 different pieces of carbon.....They are laid in a mold with different orientation, thicknesses, etc.... all of this is done to provide a certain ride characteristic..

    Do these copy cat frames do the same? who knows.... Unless someone actually has seen them being produced, we will never know....

    I'm not suggesting that a high end frame is worth 10x the price but it's senseless to suggest they are the same as the cheap knockoff stuff based strictly on outward appearance....just because it looks the same doesn't mean it's the same....
    You are essentially correct. Copycat frames DO NOT do quite the same. They usually use cheaper carbon (T700) that requires less skill in the layup process.

    Now I am just procrastinating getting out in the freezing cold. I better get to it.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT ROADBIKEREVIEW

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2020 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.