Uncomfortable due to cheeper carbon?
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  1. #1
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    Uncomfortable due to cheeper carbon?

    Hi,

    Sorry, not sure if forum section is correct.

    I have a question regarding how comfortable a bike feels.

    I have two bikes, one Aero racer and one CX/Gravel.*


    The problem is that my cx/gravel feels so uncomfortable in terms of how "stiff" or sensitive to road buzz/small bumps.

    It just feels very hard and I get pain in my hands.

    Switching to the aero racer after riding my cx feels supersmooooth...how can this be? I thought a fullblood aero racer would be more uncomfortable.


    Question: Can different types of quality in carbon fibre make this? The aero road bike is more expensive. Or*

    is it the drop handlebars? Is it the wheels?*


    Here is the setup:

    CX/Gravel: 2000 euro

    On One Space Chicken (PlanetX)

    Frame and fork - Carbon

    Wheels - Aluminium DT R24 Spline

    Tires - 30mm Challenge Strada Bianca ( inflated 6 bar)

    Drop handlebars - Aluminium


    Road bike: 4000 euro

    BH G6 Pro

    Frame and fork - Carbon

    Wheels - Carbon Vision 40

    Tires - 25mm vittoria ( inflated 8 bar)

    Drop handlebars - carbon/plastic




    Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Signoredv; 05-06-2019 at 12:03 PM.

  2. #2
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Signoredv View Post

    Tires - 32mm Challenge Strada Bianca ( inflated 6 bar)
    32mm tires at 6 bar!

    I'd be running them at 3.5 - 4 bar.

    Tires - 25mm vittoria ( inflated 8 bar)
    I would not consider that supersmooooth either.
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  3. #3
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    1. Your running 32's at 87psi? Do you weigh 300 lbs?
    2. Are you riding the bikes on the same road?

    I think the answer to your question is in the above.
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  4. #4
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    Sorry strada Biancas are 30mm. But yeah...

    Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by duriel View Post
    1. Your running 32's at 87psi? Do you weigh 300 lbs?
    2. Are you riding the bikes on the same road?

    I think the answer to your question is in the above.
    Hehe, I weigh 71-72kg (158 lbs)
    Ok, but why do I feel that my racer is so much more comfortable. I know that 8bar with 25mm is not the same as 6 bar with 30mm... How much air do you think I need? What 8m trying to say is that I think I inflate my road tires pretty much too and don't feel that I get an uncomfortable ride.

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  6. #6
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Signoredv View Post
    How much air do you think I need?
    3.5 - 4 bar on your 30's.
    4.5 - 6 bar on your 25's.

    You're seriously running way to much pressure.
    Custom Di2 & Garmin/GoPro mounts 2013 SuperSix EVO Hi-MOD Team * 2004 Klein Aura V

  7. #7
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    Wayyyyyyy too much pressure. It has nothing to do w/ the frame OR the wheels at all. Follow the pressure suggestions from tlg.
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  8. #8
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    There is no way in the world running the 30's at 50psi is NOT smoother than the 25's on the same road. Frame/wheels/bats in the belfry are NOT going to change that!
    Last edited by duriel; 05-06-2019 at 06:18 PM.
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  9. #9
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    I recently upgraded my decent quality metal alloy wheels on my road bike to carbon wheels. I inflate by tires the same as always. The carbon wheels have made a noticeable difference in reducing the road vibration or shock transmitted back to me.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalGuy View Post
    I recently upgraded my decent quality metal alloy wheels on my road bike to carbon wheels. I inflate by tires the same as always. The carbon wheels have made a noticeable difference in reducing the road vibration or shock transmitted back to me.
    No, they actually haven't. The carbon rims are MUCH stiffer than the alloy rims and NO rim has enough flexibility to absorb road shock. The tire would have to bottom against the rim for that to happen. What you feel is different from what is actually happening. Sometimes this can be explained by the lightness in your wallet after buying carbon wheels.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    No, they actually haven't. The carbon rims are MUCH stiffer than the alloy rims and NO rim has enough flexibility to absorb road shock. The tire would have to bottom against the rim for that to happen. What you feel is different from what is actually happening. Sometimes this can be explained by the lightness in your wallet after buying carbon wheels.
    You've ridden my bike with both of the wheels mentioned in my post? No, of course not.

    That's OK your posting "style" has proceeded you in many prior posts.

    Good luck with your therapist and medication. I hope that they specialize in treating people that comment based upon theory at best and imagination at worse as opposed to an actual experience.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalGuy View Post
    You've ridden my bike with both of the wheels mentioned in my post? No, of course not.

    That's OK your posting "style" has proceeded you in many prior posts.

    Good luck with your therapist and medication. I hope that they specialize in treating people that comment based upon theory at best and imagination at worse as opposed to an actual experience.
    Both placebo and nocebos are real things that cause real problems in what symptomologies people report. Claiming that your carbon fiber wheels have magical dampening properties over alloy...is pretty funny.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalGuy View Post
    You've ridden my bike with both of the wheels mentioned in my post? No, of course not.

    That's OK your posting "style" has proceeded you in many prior posts.

    Good luck with your therapist and medication. I hope that they specialize in treating people that comment based upon theory at best and imagination at worse as opposed to an actual experience.
    I don't need to ride your bike. I've built thousands of wheels and I know the physics that make wheels work. You are saying that a carbon rim w/ over 100kg of tension on the spokes is flexing enough that you can feel it. While it's wrapped in a tire with 100psi or less in it. Think about that...visualize it. The tire is absorbing bumps and road texture, it's flexing between 5-10mm. You can't really think the rim is flexing enough that you can feel it w/ that much tire flex, do you? If the rim flexed enough that you felt any bump absorption it would fall apart. At the very least the spokes would make a ton of noise at the crosses and probably saw themselves in two.

    As for my 'posting style' what are you seeing in my last post that isn't normal and requires 'therapy and medication'? Have you any experience other than what you're feeling? Built any wheels? Read anything concerning building wheels? Any experience w/ bicycle mechanics at all? I don't care if you don't like me or my style but you can't argue w/ my logic. And saying I need meds and therapy? I doubt you'd say that to me in person.
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  14. #14
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    I don't need to ride your bike. I've built thousands of wheels and I know the physics that make wheels work. You are saying that a carbon rim w/ over 100kg of tension on the spokes is flexing enough that you can feel it. While it's wrapped in a tire with 100psi or less in it. Think about that...visualize it. The tire is absorbing bumps and road texture, it's flexing between 5-10mm. You can't really think the rim is flexing enough that you can feel it w/ that much tire flex, do you?
    #Physics!
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    No, they actually haven't. The carbon rims are MUCH stiffer than the alloy rims and NO rim has enough flexibility to absorb road shock. The tire would have to bottom against the rim for that to happen. What you feel is different from what is actually happening. Sometimes this can be explained by the lightness in your wallet after buying carbon wheels.
    But if your wallet is lighter, won't that make the ride more harsh because you will bounce more?
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Signoredv View Post
    Tires - 30mm Challenge Strada Bianca ( inflated 6 bar)

    Tires - 25mm vittoria ( inflated 8 bar)
    Quote Originally Posted by Signoredv View Post
    Hehe, I weigh 71-72kg (158 lbs)
    YIKES! Do you like riding rodeo horses?? Use the 2nd box in the link below to find optimal pressures:

    Bicycle tire pressure calculator

    Weight must be rider, bike and everything you carry. I put in 180lbs. and set the weight distribution to 45%/55%. I get this:

    25mm tires: 69PSI (4.7bar) Front / 87PSI (6bar) Rear

    There is no entry for 30mm, only 28 or 32. So:

    28mm tires: 59PSI (4bar) Front / 74PSI (5bar) Rear

    32mm tires: 47PSI (3.2bar) Front / 57PSI (3.9bar) Rear

    As others here have said, you are obviously using WAAAAYYYY too much pressure.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    YIKES! Do you like riding rodeo horses?? Use the 2nd box in the link below to find optimal pressures:

    Bicycle tire pressure calculator

    Weight must be rider, bike and everything you carry. I put in 180lbs. and set the weight distribution to 45%/55%. I get this:

    25mm tires: 69PSI (4.7bar) Front / 87PSI (6bar) Rear

    There is no entry for 30mm, only 28 or 32. So:

    28mm tires: 59PSI (4bar) Front / 74PSI (5bar) Rear

    32mm tires: 47PSI (3.2bar) Front / 57PSI (3.9bar) Rear

    As others here have said, you are obviously using WAAAAYYYY too much pressure.
    Can this really be correct? 3.2 seems sooo low. My bike will not roll

    Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Signoredv View Post
    Can this really be correct? 3.2 seems sooo low. My bike will not roll

    Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk
    It will roll. Try it, you'll like it.

    Many riders erroneously think higher pressures are always faster. Note that when your ride is harsh, you will FEEL faster, but won't actually BE faster.

    If nothing else, your front pressures should be less than your rear since your drive forces and most of your weight is in the rear.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalGuy View Post
    I recently upgraded my decent quality metal alloy wheels on my road bike to carbon wheels. I inflate by tires the same as always. The carbon wheels have made a noticeable difference in reducing the road vibration or shock transmitted back to me.
    Who knows why you feel a difference.

    But keep in mind that unless the internal width of the two rims is the same that same tires and same PSI will effectively actually be different.
    I kind of doubt the difference you feel is alloy vs carbon alone.

    For what it's it's worth the few guys I ride with who have both have reported the opposite (their alloy wheels being more comfortable of so they say).

  20. #20
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    YIKES! Do you like riding rodeo horses?? Use the 2nd box in the link below to find optimal pressures:

    Bicycle tire pressure calculator

    Weight must be rider, bike and everything you carry.
    Theoretically yes. In reality, not really. Depends on how much stuff you carry.
    I just use my body weight and bike weight. I don't add up my clothes, helmet, shoes, water bottles. It's close enough. It's a ballpark calculator, not precision engineering.
    A 5lb difference in weight is about ~3psi pressure difference. Well I've never calibrated any of my pumps. And can't distinguish below 5psi on the gauges. Never measured my weight distribution. I just round up/down to the nearest 5psi.

    I'm sure if you accurately measured everything down to the oz and psi, you'd find you're off 5-10psi from theoretical.



    Quote Originally Posted by Signoredv View Post
    Can this really be correct? 3.2 seems sooo low. My bike will not roll
    It's absolutely correct. Think about the physics of it.
    A larger tire as more mm^2. So you need to apply less force to each of those mm^2 to achieve the same pressure.
    Custom Di2 & Garmin/GoPro mounts 2013 SuperSix EVO Hi-MOD Team * 2004 Klein Aura V

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Signoredv View Post
    Can this really be correct? 3.2 seems sooo low. My bike will not roll

    Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk
    You wouldn't put 100psi in your mtb tires would you?
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    You wouldn't put 100psi in your mtb tires would you?
    I think I know the answer to that!
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    Just a thought here. I have both road and cross bikes. My cross bike (Felt Fx4, I think!!), is set up for road riding with 700X32's that I run at 60 psi. I ride my Cannondale CAAD 10 on 700X23's at 90 psi. My cross bike rides much stiffer on the same roads, I believe, due to the frame and general purpose of cross bikes. I am not sure about the internal width of the wheels, but they are both alloy.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by desaljs View Post
    Just a thought here. I have both road and cross bikes. My cross bike (Felt Fx4, I think!!), is set up for road riding with 700X32's that I run at 60 psi. I ride my Cannondale CAAD 10 on 700X23's at 90 psi. My cross bike rides much stiffer on the same roads, I believe, due to the frame and general purpose of cross bikes. I am not sure about the internal width of the wheels, but they are both alloy.
    I'll just say I'm skeptical.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by desaljs View Post
    Just a thought here. I have both road and cross bikes. My cross bike (Felt Fx4, I think!!), is set up for road riding with 700X32's that I run at 60 psi. I ride my Cannondale CAAD 10 on 700X23's at 90 psi. My cross bike rides much stiffer on the same roads, I believe, due to the frame and general purpose of cross bikes. I am not sure about the internal width of the wheels, but they are both alloy.
    That's because the drop on 23mm tires at 90PSI is equivalent to about 50PSI on 32mm tires.

    Would you put 108PSI in your 23mm tires? Same drop as 60PSI in your 32mm tires.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



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