Warranty refused for misaligned Lynskey frame - Page 2
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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Yeah... I see your point. But if I was Remington .
    So if you were Remington, and a customer reported a misfiring shotgun to a dealer, the dealer, whom you trust as your representative and agent, says after examining the gun that there is nothing wrong with it, would you still want the shotgun back?

    The issue here is Lynskey's faith in the dealer vs. the customer. In this case I would take over and have it sent to someone else I trust in an attempt to resolve the dispute. If the owner is found to be right, then it's goodbye to the former dealer, and no cost to the customer, at all. In fact, I'd send him a new frame along with some free stuff for his trouble as soon as possible.

    This is about resolving a dispute between a customer and a dealer. From what the OP has shared , which is completely one-sided but I've taken at face value, the dealer is a hack. The problem is Lynskey probably doesn't see it that way, at least not yet.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibericb View Post
    The issue here is Lynskey's faith in the dealer vs. the customer. In this case I would take over and have it sent to someone else I trust in an attempt to resolve the dispute. If the owner is found to be right, then it's goodbye to the former dealer, and no cost to the customer, at all. In fact, I'd send him a new frame along with some free stuff for his trouble as soon as possible.

    This is about resolving a dispute between a customer and a dealer. From what the OP has shared , which is completely one-sided but I've taken at face value, the dealer is a hack. The problem is Lynskey probably doesn't see it that way, at least not yet.
    The problem I have here is, as you point out, that the faith is in some blurry, out of focus measurements, and even in the out of focus photos there's clearly a gap between "measuring device" ie. brake block. I've repeatedly asked (cc'd to Don) why a metric ruler hasn't been used, and it's been ignored. I'm now asking for the measurements to be done correctly, but I am being ignored.

    It's not completely one sided, as I've posted all quotes of all of his emails. I'm not hiding anything. This is all I've been told.

    If I'm wrong, and a Park Tool gauge shows it's in perfect alignment. I'll pay the shipping to get the frame back to me. It's that simple. (But I do need irrefutable proof that it's the same frame I sent them and it's being used correctly). ie. video

    I'd love to have faith in the part about 'goodbye to the dealer'. In fact, I'd like to see it happen. Chances? Buckley's.

    Reality is, I've got no assurance from Lynskey that even if I do take proper measurements, or get another bike shop to do it because:

    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    I agree with your findings based on the research and testing that you did here evidenced by the photos.
    Despite having provided a detailed technical explanation explaining why the measurements are inaccurate. Repeatedly.

    and @ibericb, If you're affiliated with Lynskey, please let me know.

  3. #28
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    Flags at every step. Frame not in factory box, frame decal(s) scratched/ruined, Dealer be like Huh? Don, well, Don, and you want someone else to do the work. Get a tool to properly measure, or, ship to Lynskey, or find a better shop. This ain't rocket science. At the very least, confirm your serial number with Lynskey.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by battler2 View Post
    ...
    and @ibericb, If you're affiliated with Lynskey, please let me know.
    I have no affiliation with Lynskey, nor have I ever had any affiliation with Lynskey. I'm not even a Lynskey fan. I'm a retired old fart who never worked for any bicyle OEM, or affiliated company.

    You're in a dispute with a dealer who is a complete hack. If the dealer were competent they wouldn't have pulled out the string in the first place. That's a home garage shop tool, not one of a competent bike shop assessing frame alignment of a new frame they sold. That's the clear evidence of the dealer's incompetence.

    You need to recover your frame , and then pursue your rights under the Australian law you cite. If everything you've stated is accurate, none of which I have doubted, then from what you said previously you should be able to recover all the cost you incur resolving it elsewhere from the errant dealer.

    The issue with Lynskey is that they haven't been willing to referee the dispute between you and the dealer. Whether that's their role or not is questionable and debatable. You could take your bike to another dealer, or a third party. Lynskey offered to check the frame if you return it to them, and I suspect if it needs adjustment they would do that for you gratis. However, unless it can be shown somehow that any misalignment is a result of a manufacturing defect, then there isn't a warranty issue. The liability for frame damage most likely rests somewhere other than with Lynskey.

    The question you need to focus on is what are you going to do now that the dealer has concluded there is nothing wrong with the frame? Set this dealer aside, and get your frame back, whatever that takes. Then take the next step toward resolving the problem, whatever it is. Keep meticulous records, because if you are proven correct, you may have recourse for recovery of damages that you incur. If it's a manufacturing defect a competent frame builder should be able to determine that. If not, then just pay to get it fixed, and move on.
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  5. #30
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    Might not help but make sure you are dealing with the owner of the bike shop not some loser her today gone tomorrow employee who just so happens to read your email.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibericb View Post
    So if you were Remington, and a customer reported a misfiring shotgun to a dealer, the dealer, whom you trust as your representative and agent, says after examining the gun that there is nothing wrong with it, would you still want the shotgun back?
    Yes. I want people to have full and complete confidence in my brand. Especially if it's failure can result in injury or death.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by battler2 View Post
    I knew this would come up at some point or another, and this is clearly what is being insinuated by the bike shop AND Don at Lynskey.

    Now this is getting insulting. I made it clear to the bike shop, that when I built the bike I used all proper tools, torque specs and anti-seize in the build process.

    I mean, I'm not a freakin moron. I know how to build a bike, it's really not that difficult, years of DIY practice and maintenance (full strip downs and rebuilds, bi-annually) has taught me so much. I remember looking at a bike and not even being able to even label the parts. If there's a bike mechanic out there that thinks he knows everything then I don't even want to acknowledge him.

    Please, give me some examples of the dozen parts I've screwed up that would actually cause this problem.

    It's an unregulated industry, and there are no 'qualifications' you can seek to be a bike mechanic AFAIK, at least not in Australia.

    Because I don't built 10 bikes a day, kid's bikes, beach cruisers, all day long does that make my build any less reliable? I took my time and care with the build, and it was annoying to have to strip it down and send it back so soon. So there's that.

    I've heard of a so called 'professional mechanics' failing to set limit screws correctly and having a semi-pro cyclist crash uphill because the chain fell of under high load.

    I do my own bike fits too, because it's not an exact science. I've heard of someone going to three different bike fitters and getting different measurements every time. I mean, WTF?

    Otherwise, the rest of your post is a big
    Shade tree isn't a professional. And yes, building and repairing bikes all day, all kinds of bikes, makes you a professional bike mechanic, at least in my opinion. You might be the best mechanic in the world, mind you, I don't know... But sheer experience and manufacturers training are very different than stripping your own bike. IMO. I have 30 years of experience and a Masters Degree in Social Work. I do that 50+ hours a week. My experience is a continuum of progressive responsibility. I'm in charge of stuff. People, money... I am accountable. And I am qualified. Someone that does volunteer work at a social service agency on the weekends is NOT. They may be great at what they are doing and they are probably a lovely person, I deal with volunteers all the time... But they aren't a professional. That doesn't mean you screwed up the build, it just leaves the door open for increased suspicion. I'm sure you did a great job on it.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Yes. I want people to have full and complete confidence in my brand. Especially if it's failure can result in injury or death.
    I'm sure Remington and Lynskey both share that same belief. That doesn't mean they rollover for every claim by a customer of product defect. They investigate each and every one. In doing that they typically have to rely on their distributors and dealers who should be competent to assess if their is a problem or not. What is clear in this case is the dealer involved is at least incompetent, and further he may be protecting his own interest in disputing the claim of a damaged frame. What's unsettling is Lynskey either hasn't figured that out, or if they have they've done nothing about it.

    If the OP wants to pursue a manufacturers defect, then he should get the frame and ship it back to Lynskey since they woud have to agree with that anyway.. Don stated in his initial reply that they would readily inspect the frame. But the greater likelihood (by far) is the frame was damaged at some point after it left Lynskey. Even Remington isn't going to accept responsibility for a gun damaged or abused by another, and that's most likely what happened in this situation (maybe the incopetent dealer) if the OP's assessment is correct.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibericb View Post
    I'm sure Remington and Lynskey both share that same belief. That doesn't mean they rollover for every claim by a customer of product defect. They investigate each and every one. In doing that they typically have to rely on their distributors and dealers who should be competent to assess if their is a problem or not. What is clear in this case is the dealer involved is at least incompetent, and further he may be protecting his own interest in disputing the claim of a damaged frame. What's unsettling is Lynskey either hasn't figured that out, or if they have they've done nothing about it.

    If the OP wants to pursue a manufacturers defect, then he should get the frame and ship it back to Lynskey since they woud have to agree with that anyway.. Don stated in his initial reply that they would readily inspect the frame. But the greater likelihood (by far) is the frame was damaged at some point after it left Lynskey. Even Remington isn't going to accept responsibility for a gun damaged or abused by another, and that's most likely what happened in this situation (maybe the incopetent dealer) if the OP's assessment is correct.
    I don't disagree... Excellent points. But Google "Smith and Wesson warranty" and you will see a ton of what I would expect. Granted, a handgun isn't a bicycle frame in Australia. But the sense I get from Lynskey is that they are more concerned with who is at fault or where their product got damaged than the fact that a defective and potentially dangerous Lynskey frame is out in the world, and they know about it, and they are dicking around instead of removing it from public life. I have high standards, I'm aware of that...
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  10. #35
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    All of this and then there are companies with real customer service and companies with Don Erwin handling things. Case in point-- over the winter I was cleaning off my bike (carbon frame) when I noticed a crack near the BB/chainstay joint. I took some pictures and sent it off to Neilpryde and the dealer I purchased it through (I'm in NY, they're in AZ), company is based in Australia/Hong Kong.
    Within hours I had an email asking for more pictures to show the bike was not involved in a crash (it wasn't) and then it took about 2 days for everything to go back and forth with the shop having to file the warranty claim. Once everything was through, the company told me to destroy the frameset (cut it in half) and send a picture and they would ship me a replacement frame.
    They did this so I wouldn't have to waste time and money shipping the old frame to the dealer. Once they saw that they dispatched a new frame to me and it arrived from Hong Kong in 3 days.

    Then there's Lynskey...

    If I was the OP I'd find a competent frame builder as local as possible and have them inspect it and then go back. Good look trying to deal with anyone else above Don. It won't happen, they're not interested. I tried pretty hard.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    Shade tree isn't a professional. And yes, building and repairing bikes all day, all kinds of bikes, makes you a professional bike mechanic, at least in my opinion. You might be the best mechanic in the world, mind you, I don't know... But sheer experience and manufacturers training are very different than stripping your own bike. IMO. I have 30 years of experience and a Masters Degree in Social Work. I do that 50+ hours a week. My experience is a continuum of progressive responsibility. I'm in charge of stuff. People, money... I am accountable. And I am qualified. Someone that does volunteer work at a social service agency on the weekends is NOT. They may be great at what they are doing and they are probably a lovely person, I deal with volunteers all the time... But they aren't a professional. That doesn't mean you screwed up the build, it just leaves the door open for increased suspicion. I'm sure you did a great job on it.
    This is where I disagree, and it's something that defines Australia. Over here we really don't care about qualifications and supposed experience, as long as you can do the job you're hired.

    However, the key point (which you mention), is some industries are regulated by academic qualifications and mandatory certifications and others are not. That's why I'd also call you a professional social worker and volunteers, just volunteers.

    Bike mechanics are not. Why? Because it's not that complicated. It doesn't need regulation because there's not a lot to bugger up. Would you want to take your wheel into the shop every time you needed to change a tire? How about adjust your brakes, by aligned pads or rotating the cable adjuster? Some need help, some need don't. I don't. However, give me a bike with disc brakes, I'd say: I'll get back to you. Because I'm not there yet. Maybe some 'professional' bike mechanics wouldn't touch an e-bike either.

    Quote Originally Posted by ibericb View Post
    I'm sure Remington and Lynskey both share that same belief. That doesn't mean they rollover for every claim by a customer of product defect. They investigate each and every one. In doing that they typically have to rely on their distributors and dealers who should be competent to assess if their is a problem or not. What is clear in this case is the dealer involved is at least incompetent, and further he may be protecting his own interest in disputing the claim of a damaged frame. What's unsettling is Lynskey either hasn't figured that out, or if they have they've done nothing about it.

    If the OP wants to pursue a manufacturers defect, then he should get the frame and ship it back to Lynskey since they woud have to agree with that anyway.. Don stated in his initial reply that they would readily inspect the frame. But the greater likelihood (by far) is the frame was damaged at some point after it left Lynskey. Even Remington isn't going to accept responsibility for a gun damaged or abused by another, and that's most likely what happened in this situation (maybe the incopetent dealer) if the OP's assessment is correct.
    I hope I don't have to go that way, and I don't think I will because as I mentioned before, consumer law protects me from needing to do that. I'll give him another few days, send another email requesting proper measurements. If I get no reply by the following week I'll have to contact consumer affairs in Victoria.

    I'll weigh up other options after that.

    I don't know if it was damaged in transit TBH. There wasn't any physical damage or scratches on the frame (just the decal, which could have been sloppy application). Very close visual inspection indicated one of the stays was welded at a slightly different angle, but I'd need to take it to a frame builder to confirm (probably by measurements at the welds). I have good eyes but maybe not THAT good.

    Wouldn't mind finding out the Lynskey hierarchy TBH (If I need it), any other emails of people that work there? CEO? edit: Thanks @CharlieUnicorn, rules that out I guess :/

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie the Unicorn View Post
    ...
    If I was the OP I'd find a competent frame builder as local as possible and have them inspect it and then go back. ...
    Exactly, and that's been suggested several times in this thread. It's the most sensisble way to resolve the dispute, if the OP is truly interested in expedient resolution.
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  13. #38
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    Why wait. Move on it now. You've been through enough rounds of back and forth, with no help from the dealer, who is clearly incompetent. Call, or get the frame and take it to a competent frame builder.

    As far as qualifications, what's clear is that a retail bicycle dealer isn't competent to assess the frame condition. By now he should have properly checked the alignment of both the frame and the dropouts. He hasn't done either, and neither have you. So, what makes you any more qualified than him?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibericb View Post
    Exactly, and that's been suggested several times in this thread. It's the most sensisble way to resolve the dispute, if the OP is truly interested in expedient resolution.
    I mentioned before, it's not necessary at this point because of consumer laws. Secondly, even if I do this, the dealer is responsible to handling warranty arrangements under consumer law, not me. Even if I get someone to look at it what makes you think the dealer is going to send it back to Lynskey? He's already being extremely dishonest, nothing can turn it around except an email from Don asking him to measure it properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by ibericb View Post
    Why wait. Move on it now. You've been through enough rounds of back and forth, with no help from the dealer, who is clearly incompetent. Call, or get the frame and take it to a competent frame builder.

    As far as qualifications, what's clear is that a retail bicycle dealer isn't competent to assess the frame condition. By now he should have properly checked the alignment of both the frame and the dropouts. He hasn't done either, and neither have you. So, what makes you any more qualified than him?
    It doesn't, but at least I used a ruler. and I don't think I ever said I was more qualified than him. It's just seriously disturbing what's going on here.

    Calling him is out of the question as I have no documented proof of the phone call. Ignored emails will be printed and sent with registered post (signature on delivery) with evidence of what was in the envelope. That's something for later down the track.

  15. #40
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    If there is a government agency that will help you, use it. IF not, take matters into your own hands. Just get on with it, whatever it takes.

    As far as competence goes, from what you alone have presented here the dealer has demonstrated he doesn't have the requisite competence to do the assessment required. But then you haven't established your's either. You're basically in a pissing match with this dealer. Do what it takes to get out of it.
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    Observer of this thread and of the advice given...some of which has been very good. It's sometimes difficult to step away, or change tactics...but that appears to be what's required.

    Hope the OP has a moment of clarity on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvad View Post
    Hope the OP has a moment of clarity on this.
    I am definitely considering various avenues to take. Some appear to have been closed and shut off (it's clear which ones).

    The likely outcome is that I will have an expensive paperweight. But I will push it anyway. I'll update again later this week.

  18. #43
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    Just for completeness:


    Lynskey's 100% Satisfaction Guarantee


    Our 100% Satisfaction Guarantee is an assurance that the item you receive is of the highest quality and meets all your expectations.
    •You have a full 45 days from when you receive your Lynskey product to determine if you need to exchange or return it for any reason
    •Our Complete Satisfaction Guarantee applies to purchases made via Lynskey Performance factory direct. If you purchased your Lynskey product through your Independent Dealer/ Local Bikeshop or other store, please inquire with the shop as to their return or exchange policy prior to making your purchase.
    •If you took advantage of our TiFi Finance or Trade-In programs you are eligible to exchange your Lynskey. Refunds cannot be given for products purchased through our finance or trade-in programs

    Returning your product
    •Returning your Lynskey product is an easy process and begins with submitting our RETURN AUTHORIZATION REQUEST. After you have submitted this form we will contact you promptly with an RA number
    You are responsible for the cost of shipping your Lynskey Product back to our factory located in Chattanooga, Tennessee. We highly recommend using The Best Lowest Bicycle Shipping in America and Worldwide | ShipBikes or www.bikeflights.com as they are bicycle shipping experts, very simple to use, and provide very competitive shipping rates. The average cost for shipping a bike is less than $100.00
    •Should you prefer to manage the shipping process yourself all major carriers deliver to Chattanooga. Be certain to insure the shipment for its full retail value.
    •Please note that shipping insurance does not cover damage due to improper packaging. It is your responsibility to pay any costs related to the repair or replacement of returned items damaged in shipping. Please take the time to carefully package your return
    •The product must be received in working order with no damage due to abuse or neglect. The cost of any missing or damaged parts will be deducted from your refund.
    •In a refund situation we will refund the cost of the product. We do not refund any freight or delivery costs. If your product was originally shipped as "Free Freight" those original freight costs will be deducted from your refund amount.
    •We will process your refund within 2 business days of receipt of the returned product. Your credit card company may take an additional 2-3 days before your credit is posted to your account.

    Further,
    Lynskey's Lifetime Warranty policy


    Submit a Warranty Claim

    All claims for warranty service must be made using Lynskey Performance Return Authorization claim forms.


    The entire process is spelled out at the link above. Particularly relevant in this case is the following:

    7. At no time may any retailer or distributor make representations of what is covered or not covered under this warranty without express written permission from Lynskey Performance. Should a retailer or distributor replace a frame before consulting Lynskey Performance, it is at the sole discretion of the retailer or distributor and they may not be reimbursed by Lynskey Performance.

    OP - since the time for the 100% Satisfaction Guarantee has expired, and that simple option isn't available to you, have you submitted the Return Authorization Request noted in the steps detailed ?
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  19. #44
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    I bought a Lynskey when they just got back into the bike business. They sent me the wrong frame which I sent back at my own expense (didn't even offer to reimburse me or provide a prepaid shipping label). The replacement frame had shifting issues out of the box consistent with a bent hanger. I thought that was unlikely but I got home, used my hanger gauge, and sure enough it was bent.
    Last edited by Squint; 05-18-2015 at 04:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squint View Post
    I bought a Lynskey when they just got back into the bike business. They sent me the wrong frame which I sent back at my own expense (didn't even offer to reimburse me or provide a prepaid shipping label). The replacement frame had shifting issues out of the box consistent with a bent hanger. I thought that was unlikely but I got him and used my hanger gauge and sure enough it was bent.
    And a little more completeness...

    It takes less than that for me. Straight out mistake like that they need to fix all the way. The hanger is easy enough to remedy....

    I would be pissed enough I would be a lot less neutral that your post here probably. Although I like to think I could post the way you did without coloring the info. Hats off to that effect. I still take every opportunity to state my feeling on why the last $30k I have spent has not and will never be on Trek products...

  21. #46
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    big mistake sending it back to the shop. IF there is a problem with the frame (it isn't clear since you've both used a bad method), then your dispute is going to be with the shop and not the manufacturer since you've already seen how the manufacturer is going to respond to an alignment issue (it's not their fault). I doubt a frame would come out of the shop with almost 1 cm misalignment.

    Use whatever credit card or customer protection services you can use under Australian law. It's your only hope. They could say it's the fault of the shipper, but my guess is that you've left too much time go by for recourse with the shipper.

  22. #47
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by robt57 View Post
    And a little more completeness...

    It takes less than that for me. Straight out mistake like that they need to fix all the way. The hanger is easy enough to remedy....

    I would be pissed enough I would be a lot less neutral that your post here probably. Although I like to think I could post the way you did without coloring the info. Hats off to that effect. I still take every opportunity to state my feeling on why the last $30k I have spent has not and will never be on Trek products...
    Amen Brother, I am wit you 110%, some of our more pious members who are fans, and have ragged on the OP, would be royally ??? upset, nah put in your favorite word??? LOL they would no longer be fans.

    Welding any bike frame leaves opportunity for a boo-boo, Ti frames multiply that by 10 times, that is the reason Lynskey measures each frame before it leaves, but that doesn't mean that they are all perfect?? Since the front tire/fork finds its own natural track, we hope that the Fork/Frame interface provides perfect alignment which is critical on all two wheeled conveyances??

    I'd say its obvious the OPs bike is "tweaked", I would call it 50/50 tweaked from factory or shipping?? actually for the OPs benefit lets call it 40/40, and the last 20% has to belong to the OP for parts or assembly errors, always possible as well??

    I have worked on lots of cars/airplanes/tractors, and even been paid to do so, I would not profess 100% perfection on any build, and I am hiring the Bicycle DR. to assemble my NOS Pinarello Prince SL, due to snotty BB threads, seat post tube needing a little reaming???????

    He's a friend, but I will pay him good money, just to ensure my supposed warranty is not voided???

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    Looks like Don Erwin is leaving Lynskey-- best news out of that company I've heard in quite some time.

    https://www.facebook.com/lynskeyperformance?fref=ts

    good riddance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie the Unicorn View Post
    Looks like Don Erwin is leaving Lynskey
    That might explain his laissez-faire replies to the OP.
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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by battler2 View Post
    I am definitely considering various avenues to take. Some appear to have been closed and shut off (it's clear which ones).

    The likely outcome is that I will have an expensive paperweight. But I will push it anyway. I'll update again later this week.
    The long time between purchase and assembly doesn't help your case. Try a local builder to check alignment but your claim is maybe going nowhere. Have you been talking to the Dealer Distributor owner? Facebook the pictures to Lynskeys site?

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