Warranty refused for misaligned Lynskey frame - Page 3
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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibericb View Post
    That might explain his laissez-faire replies to the OP.

    Nope that's just his attitude if he decides he's right and you disagree with him.

  2. #52
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    I just read through 3 pages of he said/she said.
    *The string method - it's not bad if you can actually do it, the string is doing nothing more than creating a reference line - no consistencies between what the OP is doing and the shop, ultimately an alignment should be checked with wheel in and wheel out.

    *The park tool is nothing more than an offset piece of tubing with an adjustable feeler on the end, something you can easily rig up. It may be of interest to check to see the if the axle sits square to the frame.

    *What is of real interest to me is the OP's description "It was when I got to the hills and tried to do a hard ride on the flats I noticed there was a problem. Every descent, as I built up speed to around 35km/h (21mph) the bike felt like it was on ice, sliding around. I had to hit the brakes to slow down as I felt uneasy, and consequently rode the brakes all the way down as slow riders (not even pedalling) passed me. I didn’t want to crash." Has anyone else taken a spin on this bike? From my point of view 21mph isn't all that fast on the flats let alone downhill. Everything so far is seemingly based on one person sitting on the bike for a small amount of time.
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  3. #53
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    Your Bicycle Shop

    I will assume that your frame is not correctly aligned but having it checked on an alignment table is the best way of making this determination. As for the fork, I will assume that it is all square.

    Not sure what State you're in and I know Australia Post is expensive but having it on a table and the fork also checked is something worth looking into just to be 100% sure.

    The manufacture warranty for Lynskey only applies if you purchased it from an authorised dealer and further, you must go through your authorised dealer to get a return authorisation and they will deal directly with the manufacturer.

    Also, your rights under Aussie Consumer Law are going to be limited to action with the dealer unless you purchased the frame from an authorised dealer.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikerp View Post
    Has anyone else taken a spin on this bike? From my point of view 21mph isn't all that fast on the flats let alone downhill. Everything so far is seemingly based on one person sitting on the bike for a small amount of time.
    I took several rides, omitted from description for repetitiveness. So considerable amount of time as I wanted to rule out 'rider confidence' as a factor. 21mph is not fast at all, that I was able to replicate the same feelings on flats and descents, and various road surfaces was supporting.

    Quote Originally Posted by boneman View Post
    I will assume that your frame is not correctly aligned but having it checked on an alignment table is the best way of making this determination. As for the fork, I will assume that it is all square.

    Not sure what State you're in and I know Australia Post is expensive but having it on a table and the fork also checked is something worth looking into just to be 100% sure.

    The manufacture warranty for Lynskey only applies if you purchased it from an authorised dealer and further, you must go through your authorised dealer to get a return authorisation and they will deal directly with the manufacturer.

    Also, your rights under Aussie Consumer Law are going to be limited to action with the dealer unless you purchased the frame from an authorised dealer.
    Authorised dealer without question, there's only one.

    I hope it doesn't have to come to going through the nasties to get this resolved.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by battler2 View Post
    ...
    Authorised dealer without question, there's only one.

    I hope it doesn't have to come to going through the nasties to get this resolved.
    So I went to the Lynskey site and chose Australia as my country, and was redirected to the BikePRO site. I presume that means that everything Lynskey in AUS goes through them. If that's who you're dealing with, then you may just have to go through "the nasties", unless they are willing to do an about face.

    The cite their Return and Warranty policies on their How-to-Buy page. Under the Warranty section I found this section:

    ...
    Under most warranties the product should be returned to BikePRO and we will forward the product on to the wholesaler. In a very small percentage of cases you will be required to return the product to the wholesaler directly. Please contact BikePRO before sending the product anywhere if you are unsure of what to do.

    If BikePRO decides that the part is defective under the warranty conditions then the part will be returned to the supplier, and once the problem is rectified the product will be returned to you. The initial costs incurred in returning the faulty part to BikePRO are borne by the customer, and BikePRO and the supplier will pay for any subsequent freight.

    If BikePRO rectifies the problem without needing to return the product to the supplier you will need to pay the return postage on the product.
    As I read it, Lynskey won't or most likely can't deal with you directly, probably because of Australia business laws. That would typically be the case in the U.S. as well - you'd have to go through the domestic rep for the OEM, and for Lynskey in AUS that appears to be BikePRO.

    Secondly, from what you've reported here, the dealer (I presume is BikePRO) is disputing your claim that the frame is out of alignment, and is unwilling to proceed further with a warranty claim. Unfortunately, as several of us have commented the dealer appears to be a hack. Maybe they will change their minds and have the frame properly assessed. Even if they do that and determine it is out, then it will come down to the next debate of whether it is a warrantable claim, or if it was subsequent damage, and if so who is to fault (shipper, them, or you).

    I wish you luck in getting this resolved.
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  6. #56
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    Just for clarification OP, is this your first road bike?

  7. #57
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    I've read this thread with interest as:

    1.) I, too, own a Lynskey.
    2.) In my one and only dealing with Don he tried to upsell me a bike with the racing geometry I "needed" (without ever asking me what kind of rider I was, or wanted to be).
    3.) I, too, ended up going with a reseller (Adrenaline Bikes in my case).

    Lynskey will claim the frame was damaged in transit or at the LBS.
    The LBS will claim the frame was damaged by you.
    Since you had the frame for so long and didn't notice any problems it's impossible to prove it didn't happen on your watch.

    I know that sucks and it's not fair, but unless someone decides to step up and assume responsibility (and it doesn't sound like anyone involved is willing to do that) there are just too many links in the chain to adequately place blame and get satisfaction.

    Maybe the laws are different in Australia, but in the US fighting this in the courts would likely cost you more than the frame itself is worth.

    I'm sorry this happened, OP, but at this point if it were me, I'd see about getting the frame straightened on my own dime and moving on.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent319 View Post
    Just for clarification OP, is this your first road bike?
    Absolutely not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Opus51569 View Post
    Lynskey will claim the frame was damaged in transit or at the LBS.
    The LBS will claim the frame was damaged by you.
    Since you had the frame for so long and didn't notice any problems it's impossible to prove it didn't happen on your watch.

    I know that sucks and it's not fair, but unless someone decides to step up and assume responsibility (and it doesn't sound like anyone involved is willing to do that) there are just too many links in the chain to adequately place blame and get satisfaction.

    Maybe the laws are different in Australia, but in the US fighting this in the courts would likely cost you more than the frame itself is worth.

    I'm sorry this happened, OP, but at this point if it were me, I'd see about getting the frame straightened on my own dime and moving on.
    This appears to be what Lynskey is doing, however, one option is to take it to a very credible local Ti builder and verify whether it was compression damage or welded incorrectly. The latter could be bad press for them, and I'm not sure they realise this.

    LBS have never suggested it was damaged by me. There are no marks on the frame and I have photographed every inch of the frame to prove otherwise. Most crashes would result in some additional superficial damage at least. It was suggested I hit a pothole, and was 'noted' by Don immediately after.

    Time is irrelevant. It could've been 2 weeks or 3 months before building, anything can happen even in 2 days. Is time relevant when numerous claims I've seen online for cracked chainstays/repairs under warranty?

    I know the suspense is killing people, but I need to take it slow and give them more than enough time and opportunity to rectify the situation (consumer law again).

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie the Unicorn View Post
    Looks like Don Erwin is leaving Lynskey-- best news out of that company I've heard in quite some time.

    https://www.facebook.com/lynskeyperformance?fref=ts

    good riddance.
    Hopefully his replacement doesn't continue the used car dealership approach that Don was so fond of.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by battler2 View Post
    This appears to be what Lynskey is doing, however, one option is to take it to a very credible local Ti builder and verify whether it was compression damage or welded incorrectly. The latter could be bad press for them, and I'm not sure they realise this.

    I know you don't mean that to sound like extortion, but...

    LBS have never suggested it was damaged by me. There are no marks on the frame and I have photographed every inch of the frame to prove otherwise. Most crashes would result in some additional superficial damage at least. It was suggested I hit a pothole, and was 'noted' by Don immediately after.

    The LBS hasn't blamed you because you've let them off the hook for the most part, assuming the fault was in the original manufacture of the frame. You're right many crashes leave superficial damage, but certainly not all of them. And I bet I could accidentally step on a frame still in the box, or drop it from a particular height and damage it without leaving so much as a scratch.

    Time is irrelevant. It could've been 2 weeks or 3 months before building, anything can happen even in 2 days. Is time relevant when numerous claims I've seen online for cracked chainstays/repairs under warranty?

    Maybe time is irrelevant where you are, but with my reseller they were very clear that I was to inspect the bike upon receiving it (to head off any damage that may have happened during shipping) and I had 30 days after that to notify them of any problems (for returns, refunds or exchanges). After that, if there is a warranty issue, there's a different procedure.

    I know the suspense is killing people, but I need to take it slow and give them more than enough time and opportunity to rectify the situation (consumer law again).

    Thanks for the concern but I'm not dying of suspense, merely interested Good luck, Ahab, and keep us posted with how it all turns out.
    P.S. FWIW, I experienced the symptoms you described once, and it took me a while to figure out that the actual culprit was a combination of the heat and the road surface. The bike suddenly felt like I was trying to ride a wet noodle. I'm guessing you've accounted for this, but I didn't recall it being mentioned before. I probably missed it.
    Given his penchant for nicknames, and his aversion to reading, I've decided to shorten Donald J. Trump to it's essence: Dump*

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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibericb View Post

    My suggestion to you is get your frame back, whatever it takes, and forget this as as a manufactureres warranty issue. Then find a competent frame builder who can check and realign the frame as necessary. FInally, chalk this up to experience- the perils of buying a frame and finishing the bike without trialing while still in a bike shop's possession. It's a risk you take.
    Getting the frame back - good.

    But other than that: what an awful complicit attitude against the right of a consumer.

    Hey, the guy bought a very expensive frame and the ****ing idiots from Lynskey do not stand behind their **** product.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by dracula View Post
    Getting the frame back - good.

    But other than that: what an awful complicit attitude against the right of a consumer.

    Hey, the guy bought a very expensive frame and the ****ing idiots from Lynskey do not stand behind their **** product.
    Here's the problem - if the frame is bent, prove it was a manufacturing defect, not subsequent damage. The warranty covers ONLY defects in workmanship or materials, not damage caused by abuse or mishandling after it leaves Lynskey's hands. If it was subsequent damage it's not a warranty issue, it's a claim for damage in transit. The problem here is the Australian Lynskey rep, who is initially responsible for determining if there is a defect or not, maintains there is nothing wrong with the frame, at all. If a competent framebuilder can show that the frame was improperly assembled, then it's a warranty issue.

    If the frame is bent, which remains in question, but there is no proof of misassembly, then there are two issues - who damaged the frame, and the allowed time for such a claim. There were probably at least 4 different shippers, and the Lynskey rep involved , with at least 9 transfers of custody between Lynskey and the OP. I don't know about Australia, but in the U.S. most transit damage policies have a limited time period to make a claim.

    The OP's best solution is paying to get his frame back, then have it evaluated by a competent frame builder to see if there is any indication of manufacturing error, or other damage to the frame. From there he can pursue a warranty claim if there is a good basis for a defect, or if wants to pursue a claim for damage in transit.
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by battler2 View Post
    ...
    Time is irrelevant. It could've been 2 weeks or 3 months before building, anything can happen even in 2 days. Is time relevant when numerous claims I've seen online for cracked chainstays/repairs under warranty?
    Time is very relevant, more so if it is determined that there is no manufacturing defect that leads to a viable warranty claim. All warranties have a time limit. In the U.S. Lynskey provides for a lifetime warranty against defects in workmanship or materials for the frames they build. I will presume it's the same in Australia.

    If, however, your frame was damaged in shipment, then time for a claim is generally limited. How long you have to file a claim depends on jurisdiction for where the damage occurred. In the U.S. it cannot be limited to less than 9 months from receipt of domestic shipment, and that is a commonly applied and accepted industry standard. I just looked and according to the Australian Chamber of Shipping Ltd, in Australia you are limited to 9 months for overland carriers, and 1 year for the sea leg of maritime shipment.

    Since you're now about 9 months from having received shipment, your ability to file a claim for damage in transit is about to expire, if it hasn't already, for all but the sea leg of the frame's transport. You need to press on quickly for resolution of a warranty claim if you have any interest in pursuing a potential claim for damage in transit.
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by dracula View Post
    Hey, the guy bought a very expensive frame and the ****ing idiots from Lynskey do not stand behind their **** product.
    Let's back up a bit.
    1) The OP buys a frame from a retailer, he builds it up and has an issue, he needs to first work this with the retailer, the retailer in turn needs to work things out with Lynskey. The OP has admittedly not done this yet - he should take them up and have the frame put on a frame builders deck and checked out. The Lynskey rep should have refered the OP back to the retailer.

    Now I'll offer some expert opinion on Metrology and Measurements -I've spent small fortunes in procuring/using instruments and software (Leica, Metris, Faro, Brunson, Wild, NRK Spatial Analyzer, etc.)

    2) The string method is valid, it works just a well as the Park FAG2, under some cases better. Both methods only provide a means of alignment of the rear triangles to each other in relation to the front triangle.
    3) From the pics and description by the OP's method is flawed. The pics only show one side being strung at a time, they should be done simultaneously to provide a balanced load across the rear triangles.
    4) There is no need to use the thinnest piece of string - you really want a piece of string that will take a good amount of tension.
    5)The outer surfaces of the drops is also not the surface that should be used for this, the inner surface is a control surface as it interfaces with the wheel hub.
    6)The OP's pics show ~8mm of difference from side to side. A cloth/paper tape/ruler isn't a very good tool, a gauge block does make for a better setup (both OP and Shop are seemingly doing these operations with one person so it is tough to hold a device and take a decent shot. Based on the overall photos and method my vote for the better methodology goes to the shop
    7)If you really want to get down to checking things you will have to go one of two ways:
    A-put the frame on a frame builders table/jig center it up and take some real measurements
    B-Measure the frame with a portable CMM and do an analysis (headtube to BB, BB to drops, center line of the complete frame
    8) The OP made some interesting statements "and I disagree with this as I later recalled that the dropouts had to be spread to fit the wheel" and "For arguments sake, the dropouts did have to be spread a little for the wheel to slide in. I just put this down as a trait of the frame (this becomes important later)." Was this a one time adjustment that was made? How was it done?

    Frame misalignment is something mostly attributed with a bike pulling the OP describes the issue as "the bike felt like it was on ice, sliding around. I had to hit the brakes to slow down as I felt uneasy, and consequently rode the brakes all the way down as slow riders (not even pedalling) passed me. I didn’t want to crash." The closest I can get to this description after doing a search is - tire - After fall bicycle feels really slippery - Bicycles Stack Exchange
    I'd really be interested in seeing another test riders input on this bikes handlling.

    On a side note (not related to Dracula's post) there is no reason to disparage the Shop's lack of proper English skills, it has nothing to do with the issue or competence.
    As Campy 11 chains don't follow the 12 1/16" rule, it's wise to change them at 132.60 mm max.
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikerp View Post
    I'd really be interested in seeing another test riders input on this bikes handlling.
    As I believe I said in my original post, this feeling of the front wheel being on ice was in my experience due to too little trail in the front end geometry.

    If the OP can ride the bike no-hands without it leaning to one side then the bike is fine. But the OP claims "Except riding no hands isn't something I like to do, there's too much that can go wrong and stupid crashes result in injury and time of my bike. Not worth it IMO."

    I consider this a very feeble excuse. The OP should let a friend or other third party try the bike as I feel this is a litmus test. Who cares how much the frame is off; I don't think any of us can say definitively at what degree a frame is out of alignment that it will manifest itself with poor handling. There certainly is some acceptable variation. Whether the Lynskey in question is within that range is an unknown.

  16. #66
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    I'm in full agreement Peter. I 2 wheel aligned vehicle is much more forgiving than 3 and up.
    As Campy 11 chains don't follow the 12 1/16" rule, it's wise to change them at 132.60 mm max.
    Lights and road riding - it's not about what you need to see, it's what it takes to be seen.

  17. #67
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    Smile

    Excellent points, all. However, as I read it the dealer who was going to send it to a frame builder determined on his own that the frame was not out of alignment, and concluded it did not need to go to a framebuilder for further assessment.

    So far all that's been mentioned is a simple string check for the rear triangle, and the results are in dispute. If the rear triangle is out as much as the OP's measurements would indicate, then I would expect that the rear tire would either be rubbing or near rubbing on a chainstay, and that it would be obvious. Further there's no mention of a check by either the OP or the dealer of rear dropout parallelism. I don't understand why that hasn't been done. And has anyone considered the front fork?

    As I understand it, BikePRO is both the dealer and the Lynskey rep for Australia. If you enter the Lynskey site, and pick Australia as your country you are redirected to the BikePRO site. From that I take it that Lynskey has no Australian subsidiary, so all Lynskey business in Australia is conducted through BikePRO. Having determined there is nothing to adjust, that there is nothing wrong with the frame, BikePRO wants to return the frame to the OP at the OP's expense, which is consistent with their published warranty policy. The OP is disputing their findings, and is refusing to pay for the return shipping.

    I have no knowledge of Aussie consumer protection laws, which the OP keeps pointing to for justification. But from where I sit it appears that without an independent evaluation he's not going to win the argument.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikerp View Post
    Let's back up a bit.
    1) The OP buys a frame from a retailer, he builds it up and has an issue, he needs to first work this with the retailer, the retailer in turn needs to work things out with Lynskey. The OP has admittedly not done this yet - he should take them up and have the frame put on a frame builders deck and checked out. The Lynskey rep should have refered the OP back to the retailer.

    Now I'll offer some expert opinion on Metrology and Measurements -I've spent small fortunes in procuring/using instruments and software (Leica, Metris, Faro, Brunson, Wild, NRK Spatial Analyzer, etc.)

    2) The string method is valid, it works just a well as the Park FAG2, under some cases better. Both methods only provide a means of alignment of the rear triangles to each other in relation to the front triangle.
    3) From the pics and description by the OP's method is flawed. The pics only show one side being strung at a time, they should be done simultaneously to provide a balanced load across the rear triangles.
    4) There is no need to use the thinnest piece of string - you really want a piece of string that will take a good amount of tension.
    5)The outer surfaces of the drops is also not the surface that should be used for this, the inner surface is a control surface as it interfaces with the wheel hub.
    6)The OP's pics show ~8mm of difference from side to side. A cloth/paper tape/ruler isn't a very good tool, a gauge block does make for a better setup (both OP and Shop are seemingly doing these operations with one person so it is tough to hold a device and take a decent shot. Based on the overall photos and method my vote for the better methodology goes to the shop
    7)If you really want to get down to checking things you will have to go one of two ways:
    A-put the frame on a frame builders table/jig center it up and take some real measurements
    B-Measure the frame with a portable CMM and do an analysis (headtube to BB, BB to drops, center line of the complete frame
    8) The OP made some interesting statements "and I disagree with this as I later recalled that the dropouts had to be spread to fit the wheel" and "For arguments sake, the dropouts did have to be spread a little for the wheel to slide in. I just put this down as a trait of the frame (this becomes important later)." Was this a one time adjustment that was made? How was it done?

    Frame misalignment is something mostly attributed with a bike pulling the OP describes the issue as "the bike felt like it was on ice, sliding around. I had to hit the brakes to slow down as I felt uneasy, and consequently rode the brakes all the way down as slow riders (not even pedalling) passed me. I didn’t want to crash." The closest I can get to this description after doing a search is - tire - After fall bicycle feels really slippery - Bicycles Stack Exchange
    I'd really be interested in seeing another test riders input on this bikes handlling.

    On a side note (not related to Dracula's post) there is no reason to disparage the Shop's lack of proper English skills, it has nothing to do with the issue or competence.
    1) I have already done this, read the thread. Bike shop even states he was about to send it to a frame builder friend to measure it 'properly', and then appeared to be satisfied with this measurements. I provided measurements and the frame was requested back for inspection. He does not provide any measurements at all. (Hint: look this up in the dictionary)
    2) String method is reasonably accurate for its intended purpose if it's done correctly, but I wouldn't go using it as a reference to fixing the frame. It only measures the alignment at the seat post, not at the dropouts.
    3) My method is not flawed and I did not measure them one at a time. They were looped around the headtube as well. I just haven't provided those photos.
    4) And if the tension is not consistent either side? Elastic band then? This is a very very minor detail, that wouldn't result in a measurable difference I think (but thicker string, where do you measure? the middle of the string, the very edge, where?)
    5) As I already explained somewhere in this thread, the drops needed to be spread slightly to put the wheel in, whether it's a trait of the frame or not I don't know. This throws this out completely.
    6) Hahahahaha. Sorry I can't even reply to this ridiculous claim. Do you work for the shop?
    7) Shop said they would do this, and now aren't. See the problem here?
    8) One time adjustment? what are you talking about? Have you ever installed a wheel into a frame before?
    9) That stackexchange article contains loads of varied responses and none of them confidently answer the question. As you've suggested it's the tires, I can say that I changed the tyres 3 times, used 23's, 25's and 28's. Wheels are trued and dished perfectly. The wheels (and tires) were transferred from another bike with no issues and I used them constantly with no issues.

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    Is this a re-trolling thing, WTF?

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    Just fyi, Im also dealing with them about a missing shipment and don doesn't seem to be very helpful. I paid for 2nd day priority (which I allways believed came with a tracking number), waited almost a week and nothing. Contacted don and he simply said it was shipped fri last and that's all ive heard of him. Im giving him until mon and calling.
    so far I am completely unhappy with the service provided by this shop.

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    OK, I am having an issue with my bike, & devised a way to check the frame trueness, which is pretty simple.

    Put 2 true wheels on the bike, get a 6FT straightedge or sq al channel at the hardware & 4 clamps. Let the air out of the tires, install on the frame, about 6" above the floor (to clear the spokes) attach to rear wheel, extending to the front wheel. Put a clamp on the rim/channel at the rear of the rear wheel & at the front of the rear wheel.

    The front of the straight edge must be lined up pretty good with the front & rear of the front wheel. If it isn't, the frame is twisted.

    Takes about 20 min.
    BANNED

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by crossracer View Post
    Just fyi, Im also dealing with them about a missing shipment and don doesn't seem to be very helpful. I paid for 2nd day priority (which I allways believed came with a tracking number), waited almost a week and nothing. Contacted don and he simply said it was shipped fri last and that's all ive heard of him. Im giving him until mon and calling.
    so far I am completely unhappy with the service provided by this shop.
    Didn't read through the thread, did you. If you saw this entry (scroll up), and the post on Lynskey's facebook site May 18 was accurate, you won't be hearing from Don again. He was supposed to retire a week ago. You might want to try contacting someone else.
    Last edited by ibericb; 05-29-2015 at 11:18 PM.
    "When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments."
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  23. #73
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    battler2, you need to ring the ACCC and ask them how you should proceed with this... you'll end up being on hold for a while before you get through but we're talking about a frame that owes you a fair amount, not a toaster bought from K-Mart.

  24. #74
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    We haven't heard anything from battler2 in 2 weeks. I wonder if he's found satisfaction?
    "When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments."
    -Elizabeth Howard West

    “Never use your face as a brake pad
    -Jake Watson

  25. #75
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    not just yet, but i received a promising email from lynskey. more details later if anything comes of it. i'll give more time and be patient as i imagine there's some discussion going on behind the scenes.

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