Warranty refused for misaligned Lynskey frame
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  1. #1
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    Warranty refused for misaligned Lynskey frame RESOLVED

    I bought a Lynskey frame in August 2014, and got around to building it early 2015.

    I looked forwarded to building my dream bike and couldnít wait to see and feel the experience of titanium. It definitely absorbs the road buzz and feels like a magic carpet ride. I noticed all of this after my first ride, which was a slow and mechanical check ride, to make sure everything was tight and in alignment (handlebars, saddle etc.)

    It was when I got to the hills and tried to do a hard ride on the flats I noticed there was a problem. Every descent, as I built up speed to around 35km/h (21mph) the bike felt like it was on ice, sliding around. I had to hit the brakes to slow down as I felt uneasy, and consequently rode the brakes all the way down as slow riders (not even pedalling) passed me. I didnít want to crash.

    I then spent some time assessing the wheels. Hubs were tight, lock nuts screwed in properly, wheels true (laterally and radially) and perfectly dished. I checked the tyres, perfect with no bulge or deformities. I had 25ís on so I put 28ís on (which I was intended to do anyway, itís why I bought the frame), no difference obviously. Schwalbe One Tubeless. Great grippy tyres in the dry.

    I went for rides on the flats, I try to build up speed again but the bike felt unstable. I almost crashed on a roundabout, a same roundabout I could easily navigate at speed and have done so numerous times in the past on other bikes. As I entered the roundabout, a quick turn left and an attempt to turn right just didnít go, the bike wouldnít lean. I had to slam on the brakes and come to a complete stop. Thank god for 5800 brakes and swiss stop brake pads. I then resumed the ride and had to keep it around 30km/h. Any faster and it felt unstable again. I even tried to sprint out of the saddle but I couldnít even move to the hoods, it felt even worse.

    So I made a checklist, did extensive research on internet forums, google searches for anything that might be causing it (and this is exactly what I wrote in my initial email).

    - Both wheels are true (both radially and laterally) and properly dished. Hubs are tight and recently serviced.
    - Headset is tight and has no play whatsoever. The frame came pre-milled within acceptable range (measured digitally) for the cups. They were installed using the correct tool without issue (perfect fit).
    - Fork is without defect (dropouts aligned) and high quality (top of the range Ritchey fork). No cracks/damage or abnormal flex.
    - Saddle is correctly installed in the rails to torque specifications.
    - Bottom bracket and cranks are installed correctly to torque specifications.
    - Wheels are correctly installed in dropouts (all the way in) and QR tightened well.

    I then discovered that it could be possible that the frame was out of alignment. So I used the string method to measure the dropouts to the head tube. I was careful to ensure the string exited the dropout (in Lynskeyís case wright style hooded dropouts) at the middle point. This would be about where the wheel clamps into the dropout. For arguments sake, the dropouts did have to be spread a little for the wheel to slide in. I just put this down as a trait of the frame (this becomes important later).

    I used the thinnest piece of string I could find for highest accuracy and I made sure it was tied with even tension with no sag.

    Itís a crude method but I understood it to be accurate for what it is measuring, and that is the alignment at the point of the seat post (not at the dropouts, which would be measure greater). Especially if its done consistently and properly.

    I then confirmed the frame was misaligned and believe it to be the sole cause of the major instability I was experiencing. It was just too dangerous to ride.





    I wrote a detailed email to the bike shop I bought it from (interstate so I had to pay $50 shipping initially). They then requested a photo of the bike assembled and the underside of the BB showing the serial number). They also asked who built the bike (irrelevant) and what wheels I was using. I advised they were commercially built wheels and they were perfect. I used them on my previous bikes, and still use them to this very day.

    After taking a few weeks to send the bike back (at my expense, nearly $60) as I considered using a cheaper courier to save $$ (in the end I decided it wasnít worth it). I didnít hear anything from the bike shop.

    So I sent a follow up email, and got no reply, nearly a week passed and I decided to email Don @ Lynskey asking if heíd received a warranty claim. I thought it would be fairly straightforward and thereís a ton of positives out there for his customer service, people assured me they I would be well looked after, and that Lynskey really stand behind their products.

    I received the first reply which (irrelevant parts edited out) read:

    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    1cm seems like quite a lot, but certainly not saying impossible.

    Once we can see the photos documenting what you are describing, then yes, weíll get it back from ---- and do a re-alignment.

    Iím going to assume that youíve not hit a large pothole, or crashed in any way to cause the alignment issue? We would not warrant alignment as any hard knock in the rear of any bicycle could cause alignment issues. No frame leaves our factory except in perfect alignment.
    - Now Iím not an expert in titanium but it seemed strange that it would be suggested a pothole could knock a frame out of alignment. I would expect that the wheels would give way first (bent rim, broken spokes) and have me flying over the handlebars. I explained this and it was noted. Additional research suggests that titanium is very difficult to cold set, so I imagine it is fairly improbable. I canít see how a blunt knock would cause lateral bend on a rear triangle. Iíll leave this for people to discuss.

    - I also donít really know about their methods of manufacture and how QC is handled, but I found it odd that a rather bold claim about 100% reliability. Itís a human process and people can and do make mistakes in any profession.

    I received another reply from Don after I talked about improbabilty of pothole damage and confusion about his last comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    Help me understand exactly what we are seeing in the photos with the measuring tape. Noted on no crashing or pot holing. My last comment was that we align every frame individually and they leave our factory perfect. Sometimes possibly shipping might have something to do with the final outcome, if there was damage during transit.
    - I didnít have any scratches or apparent damage during transit apart from one of the decals slightly broken. It was disappointing not to have it perfect from the beginning but I let it slide, its no big deal. It was strange that the box it came in was of another company, and no not litespeed, some Chinese steel frame manufacturer, possibly the frame builder friend (keep reading).

    In the morning I got a reply for the bike shop (hurrah! a reply!). But what was attached were photos that were out of focus, unclear and did not use a ruler. I noticed these inaccuracies and documented them in my follow up email. I have to be honest, I was quite annoyed that it was suggested Ďthe frame is in perfect alignmentí, when the measurements were done incorrectly and the evidence provided was not clear. I questioned why a ruler wasnít used (Iíve never received an answer to this question), and asked to retake the measurements with a proper tool (as I assumed would happen anyway).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bike shop
    Sorry for my late reply, I just about to send your frame to my frame builder friend to check the frame alignment. He have a surface table to do the job properly.

    Out of curiosity, I use the old school method to check your frame alignment, I found the frame have perfect alignment. ( please see attached photos )

    I measured from the inside of the dropout, rather than outside.

    In my opinion, your problem s cause by the extreme setback position. I written an article a few year back to explain it.

    Since their is no warranty arise, I need to charge you shipping fee to send the frame back to you.
    He was about to send the frame to a Ďframe builder friendí, but out of curiosity decided to take his own measurements this way, with the string coming out of the inside of the dropouts, and with a brake pad spacer as the measuring device. I questioned this in my reply. and this was the answer I got.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bike shop
    The yellow block is a Shimano Disc brake tools, it is 30mm in length. It just happen to fill into the gap without interfere the string. It work like a feeler gauge.

    Shimano Disc Brake Tools - $6.95 - Bike Parts 360

    I try to use an digital calliper to measure, but it is very hard to place it perpendicular without interfere the string.

    I taken those photos with my phone, I will take some video & share it with you tomorrow & you will get a much better picture.
    He also suggested that my Ďextreme setback positioní was the cause, and linked me to an opinion piece he wrote 4 years ago. I read some of this and was shocked, so many bold and unsubstantiated claims about setback position with no acknowledgement anywhere about riders with long femurs. I dismissed it as ridiculous. It should be of note that the bike builder on the Lynskey site sells seat posts with 25mm setback as an option.











    Now itís hard to tell clearly from the photos, but on one of them the brake pad holder is definitely fitting flush with the string (and possibly manipulating it), and itís being held with his hand in mid air. The second photo it still clearly shows a gap on one side (despite lack of focus), and its questionable on the other side if there is a gap as well.

    As this method requires precision, I wasnít convinced. A millimetre here and there seems to be taken away from the true measurement, and combined with the out of focus photos it appeared he was trying to deceive me.

    He also used the style of the dropouts as acceptable way of measuring from the inside (and I disagree with this as I later recalled that the dropouts had to be spread to fit the wheel, itís not clear in the photo that they are consistent, and of course the angle is reduced again to the head tube. The measurable misalignment is going to diminish even further).

    The bike shop sent me a few google search links and claimed that measuring from the inside is more accurate because of the style of dropout. I explained that this is reducing the angle of the string even further and combined with the brake block and unclear photos, this canít be accurate. The more you reduce the angle the measurable distance is going to also be reduced (I mean, basic trigonometry), if we could take the measurements where the string exits right at the head tube you probably wouldnít get anywhere. The seatpost is less than half way from the dropouts. Where I mention above in this post that I had to spread the dropouts a little to put the wheel in, would indicate that my method of wrapping the string around the hood of the dropouts would be closer to the actual point in which the hub sits in the dropouts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bike shop
    The reason I measure from the inside of the dropout because it is an Wright Dropout. the thickness of the shoulder of the dropout may not be constant. It is an irrelevant point to use as an yard stick.

    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=w...ed=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

    Put the string in the inside make more sense, because those plain are the real interface between the frame & hub.

    It is perfectly fine to measure from the outside, if the dropout is an old school Campagnolo style drop out.

    https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sour...gnolo+dropouts
    I received a reply from Don which I have to be honest, was quite shocking.

    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    Thanks for taking the time to go thru this exercise. I agree with your findings based on the research and testing that you did here evidenced by the photos.

    Iím going to suggest that you have someone look into the dishing of your rear wheel.
    Now Iíve sent a number of followup emails to the bike shop and Don, one of which confirms my rear wheel being perfectly dished (with photos and offer to post a video), and the other is detailing the reasons behind the inaccuracies of the measurements taken. I mean, clearly a brake block holder is not an accurate measuring device, it should end right there.

    I have to say I made the measurements in good faith using this method just to demonstrate that the frame is out of alignment, and possibly by quite a lot (and this supports the major instability I am experiencing). I wanted to make the bike shopís job easier but instead it seems its been turned around and used against me using a few little differences, out of focus photos and basically an overall attempt to deceive me.

    Iím now asking for the alignment to be measured with a proper tool, but am just being ignored by all parties. In hindsight I should have done this before I sent the frame back, so I have irrefutable proof. I guess I was naive to assume that a bike shop with over 20 years experience would have the proper tool for the job.

    Iíll even mention that the decal on on side of the down tube was damaged when I received the frame (I know this is a common problem, and a new method has been adopted), and the box that the frame came in was of another brand. Suggesting that the frame was taken out of the original box and placed in this one. Thereís potential for speculation on the reasons for this right there.

    Now all I want is the frame repaired, replaced or my money refunded. I dreamed of getting more titanium bikes, even getting into MTBíing with a Lynskey frame, but this is starting to go sour for me, not only with this frame, but also after sales support from the bike shop (the only dealer for Lynskey in Australia), and to be honest, I donít understand Donís replies and acknowledgement of the bike shopís measurements.

    Well, Iíll leave it at that as itís a long initial post and Iím happy to follow it up and answer any further questions.
    Last edited by battler2; 07-29-2015 at 03:37 AM.

  2. #2
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    At first I was going to ask you why you're dealing with a shop that can't even speak English properly. I see that you're in Australia though and maybe that's the norm there? The "Bike Shop" sounds like someone that never went to school.

    This string thing... that's not how you check a frame alignment. Yes, there is a specific tool, but you can also make a tool yourself, check out youtube. RJthebikeguy probably has something that can help you out.

    Hopefully you've figured it out by now but you need to not deal with that "bike shop" again and you need to get your frame away from them. As for Don, well you need to show him actual proof. You need to get a correct frame alignment tool, not a piece of string, and prove it to them if the frame is off. If you can't do that you're wasting their time and your time and money.

    You sound like you're fairly smart and want to handle this properly. So... handle it properly. Get the proper tool, use it properly, present the evidence to Don directly.
    use a torque wrench

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMsRepBike View Post
    This string thing... that's not how you check a frame alignment. Yes, there is a specific tool, but you can also make a tool yourself, check out youtube. RJthebikeguy probably has something that can help you out.
    Except I'd be criticised for not using a 'professional tool', and that my tool is not correctly made.

    You need to get a correct frame alignment tool, not a piece of string, and prove it to them if the frame is off. If you can't do that you're wasting their time and your time and money.

    You sound like you're fairly smart and want to handle this properly. So... handle it properly. Get the proper tool, use it properly, present the evidence to Don directly.
    Yep, except why do -I- have to do this? I considered buying the Park Tool F.A.G-2 http://www.parktool.com/product/fram...nt-gauge-***-2

    But for one measurement? Bike tools (and just about everything) are expensive here. Ordering online, if I bundle with a bigger order from a german website I know makes it about $65. then I still have to send it back to where I bought it from (another $60). If I took that route I'd be up for an additional $125 plus the original $50 to get it to me in the first place.

    I mean, I bought it from a bike shop (official and approved Lynskey dealer), I used a method that is reasonably accurate for its intended purpose if done correctly, and I received confirmation from them (with the photos attached I sent in the original email) to send it to them for inspection. I think the question should be asked is why are they using this method?

    The way it works I believe is I am responsible for getting to frame to the shop, they take care of the rest. It's the law here (and I imagine the same in the US). We have good laws protecting consumers, but I really don't want to go that route.

  4. #4
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    You have to buy the tool because you're dealing with a shop that... well isn't very good. You could and probably should find a shop you can get to that is professional. You'll have to have the proper shop measure the frame correctly, and if it's off help you prove a case against the dealer. If you are right and the frame is off, I would push hard to have them dropped as a dealer for the brand. They shouldn't be selling bikes if they can't even check a frame alignment.

    Don is going to side with the dealer, especially if it's in his interest and you can't prove any different. You'll have to do so yourself or find someone that can. You'll have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's off and that will be by using the correct tool.
    The suggestion for making your own tool is for you, to give you something better to go off of yourself instead of the string. For a warranty case you should have the right tool and proper photographs. Also really should be coming from a dealer or at least a shop.

    The way I see it is that you're in sort of a pickle. The authorized dealer is a hack. It happens here too. There are hack shops that are authorized dealers for real high end bikes and they hack the crap out of them. Unfortunately Lynskey seems to have chosen poorly here. Best bet is to find a proper precise shop to take over for you at your expense. I doubt you can force the dealer to buy tools and do things correctly.
    use a torque wrench

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMsRepBike View Post
    You have to buy the tool because you're dealing with a shop that... well isn't very good. You could and probably should find a shop you can get to that is professional. You'll have to have the proper shop measure the frame correctly, and if it's off help you prove a case against the dealer. If you are right and the frame is off, I would push hard to have them dropped as a dealer for the brand. They shouldn't be selling bikes if they can't even check a frame alignment.
    Kind of hard when I'm 800km away.

    Don is going to side with the dealer, especially if it's in his interest and you can't prove any different.
    It's in his interest not to support and stand by his products, and request a proper measurement? Kind of contrary to what I'm hearing all over the place.

    You'll have to do so yourself or find someone that can. You'll have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's off and that will be by using the correct tool.
    The suggestion for making your own tool is for you, to give you something better to go off of yourself instead of the string. For a warranty case you should have the right tool and proper photographs. Also really should be coming from a dealer or at least a shop.

    The way I see it is that you're in sort of a pickle. The authorized dealer is a hack. It happens here too. There are hack shops that are authorized dealers for real high end bikes and they hack the crap out of them. Unfortunately Lynskey seems to have chosen poorly here. Best bet is to find a proper precise shop to take over for you at your expense. I doubt you can force the dealer to buy tools and do things correctly.
    Read the quotes from his emails carefully. He speaks of a frame builder friend, and then is satisfied with his measurements. Take a look at the photos, and read my comments. I know it's a long post.

    Problem is (even if I did take your advice, and believe me I've already considered this option) how much is this all going to cost me? and it could all be for nothing as the last reply from Don indicates it's a final decision.

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    I did. He's a hack. He says he's going to bring it to some buddy that has a table and then says it's fine and he needs to bill you... in the same quote. It doesn't take careful reading to see what's going on here.

    I don't know what it's going to cost. It's going to cost the time and effort to find a shop worth dealing with first. Then it will cost whatever it costs to have them properly measure the frame. It may end there. They may be able to prove to you that it's perfect. Or they may agree with you. If they agree with you there may be more expense.

    There can be no final decision, your frame hasn't even been measured properly yet. There's no real evidence in either direction. First you need to know for sure what's going on and then you can go from there. A good shop shouldn't charge too much to just check a frame, it will only take a few minutes and they'll already have that park tool.
    use a torque wrench

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    Problem is, he probably would've done this all along. Even with measurements from a Park Tool or whatever.

    My measurements at least indicate there's a problem. It doesn't matter by how much, and if he actually measured his string with a tape measure he would see that too. It's a deliberate attempt to deceive with blurry photos. It's fraud.

    It's looking like its going to have to go further, because I'm not paying for the frame to get sent back to me, only to have to send it back (of which return will never be approved - so that won't even happen), even with proper measurements.

    I guess the disappointment for me is, not just the bike shop, but the fact the frame is so misaligned and dangerous.

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    I can feel your pain. In 82 I bought an Allez frame brand new and it had frame alignment issues. It pulled severely to the right. The bike shop and Specialized refused to repair, replace or refund on the frame. I wound up taking the frame to a custom frame shop and they repaired the bike for me at a fair price and I rode the bike for a long time after that. A lifetime Specialized boycott is still on-going.

    I suppose I would take the Titanium frame to a custom shop and have them look at it and then use their data to form your complaint. Ultimately if Lynsky is not going to honor the warranty then you will have to get it repaired at a frame shop that can work with titanium. Or you could file a lawsuit I suppose if that makes since to you. Still you will need the data from a Professional to support your claim.
    Last edited by BikeLayne; 05-16-2015 at 07:58 AM.

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    I'm with MMsRepBike - the shop you're dealing with is a hack. You need to get your frame back from them, and then stay far, far away.

    Now for your frame issue. Your real problem is not showing that the frame is out of alignment, it is showing that even if it is out of alignment that it is a Lynskey defect. As Don noted in his first reply to you, that could have happened in the course of shipping or handling by others. The Lynskey warranty wouldn't cover that - just a defect in workmanship or materials.

    The fact that you bought the bike in Australia makes it clear that it went through a long chain of changing custody between Lynskey and you, so it will be near impossible to prove it was a defective frame. Without that, you have no warranty claim against Lynskey.

    The reason you're getting pushback from Don is because, as he notes, part of their QC/QA in production is a frame alignment inspection of every finished frame before shipping. The reason you're getting pushback from the dealer could well be because they realize that they could be on the hook for a new frame if it could be established that they were the ones who damaged the frame, or were negligent is selling you a damaged frame.

    My suggestion to you is get your frame back, whatever it takes, and forget this as as a manufactureres warranty issue. Then find a competent frame builder who can check and realign the frame as necessary. FInally, chalk this up to experience- the perils of buying a frame and finishing the bike without trialing while still in a bike shop's possession. It's a risk you take.
    Last edited by ibericb; 05-16-2015 at 08:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibericb View Post
    I'm with MMsRepBike - the shop you're dealing with is a hack. You need to get your frame back from them, and then stay far, far away.

    Now for your frame issue. Your real problem is not showing that the frame is out of alignment, it is showing that even if it is out of alignment that it is a Lynskey defect. As Don noted in his first reply to you, that could have happened in the course of shipping or handling by others. The Lynskey warranty wouldn't cover that - just a defect in workmanship or materials.

    The fact that you bought the bike in Australia makes it clear that it went through a long chain of changing custody between Lynskey and you, so it will be near impossible to prove it was a defective frame. Without that, you have no warranty claim against Lynskey.

    The reason you're getting pushback from Don is because, as he notes, part of their QC/QA in production is a frame alignment inspection of every finished frame before shipping. The reason you're getting pushback from the dealer could well be because they realize that they could be on the hook for a new frame if it could be established that they were the ones who damaged the frame, or were negligent is selling you a damaged frame.

    My suggestion to you is get your frame back, whatever it takes, and forget this as as a manufactureres warranty issue. Then find a competent frame builder who can check and realign the frame as necessary. FInally, chalk this up to experience- the perils of buying a frame and finishing the bike without trialing while still in a bike shop's possession. It's a risk you take.
    This may sound a little cold but it's very true. Don ships frames and knows someone put a TV on it in the belly of a cargo jet. It happens. I don't doubt for a second that they inspected that frame and it was aligned when they shipped it. LBS is clearly sub-par. But all they did was sell you a frame in a box right? If they built it up and you rode it, and it was off, they'd likely eat the frame and then they fight it out with Lynskey. A lot of time passed from when Lynskey shipped that frame to when it bounced back as a complaint. There are a lot of reasons for push-back adding up.

    That said, if I were Don I'd pay the OPs shipping and fix the frame and eat the shipping again and send it back. If you ship across the world you need to deal with this stuff. Even when it's not your fault. It's called customer service. A misaligned frame out in the world that you made is dangerous to people, like a handgun with a crushed barrel. This thread would keep me from buying a product from a manufacturer that leaves a dangerous product on the market knowingly. Sometimes when you make and sell things you have to eat a loss. Life is hard.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by battler2 View Post
    It's looking like its going to have to go further, because I'm not paying for the frame to get sent back to me, only to have to send it back
    Dealer sounds dirty.

    If he did send it to this framebuilder why is there no picture of it the surface table with alignment gauges showing the misalignment? That would be far more convincing than the pictures he did send you.

    I don't believe the dealer's story. Also, unless you asked him to send it for an alignment check you owe him nothing. He acknowledges that he did it on his own initiative, not at your request.

    I bet this was a dud frame he had sitting around and he unloaded it on you. Check with Lynskey to see if they have any record that it had been previously sold and returned.

    Get the frame back even if you have to pay for shipping, then take him to court. Sue for cost of frame and all shipping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    A misaligned frame out in the world that you made is dangerous to people
    I have the Campagnolo H tool and take them with me if I am looking to buy a frame or bicycle.


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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    ...
    That said, if I were Don I'd pay the OPs shipping and fix the frame and eat the shipping again and send it back. If you ship across the world you need to deal with this stuff. Even when it's not your fault. It's called customer service. A misaligned frame out in the world that you made is dangerous to people, like a handgun with a crushed barrel. This thread would keep me from buying a product from a manufacturer that leaves a dangerous product on the market knowingly. Sometimes when you make and sell things you have to eat a loss. Life is hard.
    If I were Don I would identify a reputable frame builder in Australia who could do the alignment check and straighten if necessary (shipping back and forth halfway around the world just risks even more damage). I would then tell the dealer to ship the frame to that local frame guy , and pay the bill to do so. I would pay the frame guy to do the work as needed. If the frame does prove to be out of alignment I would pay the shipping to return the frame to the customer. But, if it isn't then I'd leave it to the customer to pay the charges. I would then lose that dealer, and look for another to replace him., and have that new dealer help the OP determine his problem and get it resolved.

    It's about trying to help a customer out of a bad situation because of a lousy dealer who sounds incompetent. The problem the OP is confronted with is not likely a Lynskey issue, it's either someone in the shipping chain or that dealer. The dealer should be helping the customer, and clearly he isn't. Game over for the dealer.

    But I'm not Don.
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    The real question is this: Competent Ti craftsman aligns it on the table on the OP's dime. Good, quick, fixes it.

    2 years later it cracks and a warranty gets refused with legal grounds that it had to be aligned due to being tweaked in shipping or accident etc. Now that the trail exists....


    Me: I'd have it aligned locally and ride it into the ground or sell it off. If riding it pisses you off too much with the taste in your mouth, loose it. Loose being the appropriate term quite possibly...

    I sold a new bike with a paint issue that occurred 1 week into ownership. Trek said no, I said fook you and sold it. Not at too great a loos luckily. But the next $30k over 20 years did not get spent in guess what brand. And they will never see another dime of mine not even on used stuff unless totally zero sum priced.

    Good Luck!


    I will say that IMO the likelihood it left Lynskey misaligned is VERY VERY unlikely.

    I will also say [after read a post after mine] perhaps a CC payment to the LBS/dealer that had the burden of the shipping damage having sold it to you and a dispute is an option as well...
    Last edited by robt57; 05-16-2015 at 10:55 AM.

  15. #15
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    I had my own dealings with Lynskey, Don in particular and I found him to be perfectly agreeable -- as long as you were agreeing with him and if you had any other ideas you were wrong.
    I ended up having to file a dispute with my credit card to get them to take their frame back (and the frame hadn't even been built up or ridden). 100% guaranteed my ass. Lynskey sucks, if you're in Australia Baum would've been the way to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie the Unicorn View Post
    I had my own dealings with Lynskey, Don in particular and I found him to be perfectly agreeable -- as long as you were agreeing with him and if you had any other ideas you were wrong.
    Well put, and I know how that conversation goes...

    I ended up having to file a dispute with my credit card to get them to take their frame back (and the frame hadn't even been built up or ridden). 100% guaranteed my ass. Lynskey sucks, if you're in Australia Baum would've been the way to go.

    What was it that you deemed an issue that Don did not, if I may ask??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinelli 82220 View Post
    Dealer sounds dirty.

    If he did send it to this framebuilder ....
    I just had a picture in my head of...

    Monkeys with baseball bats, was that an old AAMCO commercial maybe?

    A mind is a terrible thing [certainly in my case]

  18. #18
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    You're gonna have to eat this frame.

    Pay to get the frame shipped back to you.

    Ship it to a competent Australian framebuilder and ask them to CHECK alignment, not to align it. See if they'll provide photos and specs. Pay for this service.

    Then see if Lynskey will cooperate. Tell them the local guy has been miserable about providing service. As for a reference from Lynskey for a framebuilder or another shop.

    Does the bike ride fine no-handed? That's the litmus test for alignment; the numbers don't mean squat if you can't feel it. If the bike shimmies at higher speeds is another indicator.

    Your description of the "on ice" feeling leads me to think you have the wrong fork rake on the bike. I've experienced this "on ice" feeling with a bike that had a high rake/low trail. Decreasing the fork rake solved the problem. Your solution may be that simple.

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    If the alignment is very off, enough to cause handling problems, wouldn't it turn different in one direction than the other?

    Unsteady handling like you describe sounds like the wrong fork rake, too tight or loose headset, frame geometry or weight distribution.

  20. #20
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    OP what state are you in? What state / city is the dealer in?

    You bought the bike sight unseen online right? What warranty did the dealer give you?

    What fork are you running? And it's not irrelevant, who did the build?

    Do you have a pic of the bike fully built up?
    Last edited by kiwisimon; 05-16-2015 at 02:22 PM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter P. View Post

    Does the bike ride fine no-handed? That's the litmus test for alignment; the numbers don't mean squat if you can't feel it. If the bike shimmies at higher speeds is another indicator.
    Quoting Jobst Brandt, "Shimmy is not related to frame alignment or loose bearings, as is often claimed."

    The physics behind shimmy are explained well in this Technical Q&A column from Lennard Zinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibericb View Post
    I'm with MMsRepBike - the shop you're dealing with is a hack. You need to get your frame back from them, and then stay far, far away.

    Now for your frame issue. Your real problem is not showing that the frame is out of alignment, it is showing that even if it is out of alignment that it is a Lynskey defect. As Don noted in his first reply to you, that could have happened in the course of shipping or handling by others. The Lynskey warranty wouldn't cover that - just a defect in workmanship or materials.

    The fact that you bought the bike in Australia makes it clear that it went through a long chain of changing custody between Lynskey and you, so it will be near impossible to prove it was a defective frame. Without that, you have no warranty claim against Lynskey.

    The reason you're getting pushback from Don is because, as he notes, part of their QC/QA in production is a frame alignment inspection of every finished frame before shipping. The reason you're getting pushback from the dealer could well be because they realize that they could be on the hook for a new frame if it could be established that they were the ones who damaged the frame, or were negligent is selling you a damaged frame.

    My suggestion to you is get your frame back, whatever it takes, and forget this as as a manufactureres warranty issue. Then find a competent frame builder who can check and realign the frame as necessary. FInally, chalk this up to experience- the perils of buying a frame and finishing the bike without trialing while still in a bike shop's possession. It's a risk you take.
    I don't really need to do all this, Australian consumer law says otherwise. It's the onus of the retailer to repair, replace or refund. In that I guess, is that they should be able to provide credible proof that the frame DOESN'T need repair, and as you can clearly see from the photos and his replies, that's not happening. I also have the right to seek repairs from someone and have him pay the bill. What's perplexing to me is Don's final reply.

    Frame damaged in shipment or welded crooked? This is the question, I'm not stupid, I know the drill. Make a mistake, DENY DENY DENY. Put the blame on someone else it's far easier.

    If it's been damaged in shipment, it's the bike shops responsibility. But as I mentioned, the cold setting of titanium, according to my research, is very difficult, if not impossible. Please discuss. The frame arrived to me and the box was not damaged. It was a different box than expected as I mentioned. It sat upright on my couch for months as I gathered parts. Basically on a fluffy pillow.

    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    This may sound a little cold but it's very true. Don ships frames and knows someone put a TV on it in the belly of a cargo jet. It happens. I don't doubt for a second that they inspected that frame and it was aligned when they shipped it. LBS is clearly sub-par. But all they did was sell you a frame in a box right? If they built it up and you rode it, and it was off, they'd likely eat the frame and then they fight it out with Lynskey. A lot of time passed from when Lynskey shipped that frame to when it bounced back as a complaint. There are a lot of reasons for push-back adding up.

    That said, if I were Don I'd pay the OPs shipping and fix the frame and eat the shipping again and send it back. If you ship across the world you need to deal with this stuff. Even when it's not your fault. It's called customer service. A misaligned frame out in the world that you made is dangerous to people, like a handgun with a crushed barrel. This thread would keep me from buying a product from a manufacturer that leaves a dangerous product on the market knowingly. Sometimes when you make and sell things you have to eat a loss. Life is hard.
    If they built it up and I rode off and came back, they'd probably still put the blame on me somehow. I think enough people have established how this bike shop operates.

    Your last paragraph hit the nail on the head for me. At least he could request proper measurements with a tool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinelli 82220 View Post
    Dealer sounds dirty.

    If he did send it to this framebuilder why is there no picture of it the surface table with alignment gauges showing the misalignment? That would be far more convincing than the pictures he did send you.

    I don't believe the dealer's story. Also, unless you asked him to send it for an alignment check you owe him nothing. He acknowledges that he did it on his own initiative, not at your request.

    I bet this was a dud frame he had sitting around and he unloaded it on you. Check with Lynskey to see if they have any record that it had been previously sold and returned.

    Get the frame back even if you have to pay for shipping, then take him to court. Sue for cost of frame and all shipping.
    Were we separated at birth? Except I don't really want to have to do the last part. I want to resolve this with help from Don (as his reputation seems to be glowing) but emails are now being ignored. I'd love to know if he's got a record of warranty claim attempts. I would REALLY LOVE TO KNOW THIS.

    Quote Originally Posted by ibericb View Post
    If I were Don I would identify a reputable frame builder in Australia who could do the alignment check and straighten if necessary (shipping back and forth halfway around the world just risks even more damage). I would then tell the dealer to ship the frame to that local frame guy , and pay the bill to do so. I would pay the frame guy to do the work as needed. If the frame does prove to be out of alignment I would pay the shipping to return the frame to the customer. But, if it isn't then I'd leave it to the customer to pay the charges. I would then lose that dealer, and look for another to replace him., and have that new dealer help the OP determine his problem and get it resolved.

    It's about trying to help a customer out of a bad situation because of a lousy dealer who sounds incompetent. The problem the OP is confronted with is not likely a Lynskey issue, it's either someone in the shipping chain or that dealer. The dealer should be helping the customer, and clearly he isn't. Game over for the dealer.

    But I'm not Don.
    No you're not Don, you're a genius in customer service. I love you.

    Quote Originally Posted by robt57 View Post
    The real question is this: Competent Ti craftsman aligns it on the table on the OP's dime. Good, quick, fixes it.

    2 years later it cracks and a warranty gets refused with legal grounds that it had to be aligned due to being tweaked in shipping or accident etc. Now that the trail exists....


    Me: I'd have it aligned locally and ride it into the ground or sell it off. If riding it pisses you off too much with the taste in your mouth, loose it. Loose being the appropriate term quite possibly...

    I sold a new bike with a paint issue that occurred 1 week into ownership. Trek said no, I said fook you and sold it. Not at too great a loos luckily. But the next $30k over 20 years did not get spent in guess what brand. And they will never see another dime of mine not even on used stuff unless totally zero sum priced.

    Good Luck!


    I will say that IMO the likelihood it left Lynskey misaligned is VERY VERY unlikely.

    I will also say [after read a post after mine] perhaps a CC payment to the LBS/dealer that had the burden of the shipping damage having sold it to you and a dispute is an option as well...
    You've identified why I don't want to pay for repairs and go at this independently.

    I wish I could confidently say that it left Lynskey in perfect alignment, but it's one of their cheapest frames. If you're tasked with building as many frames as you can for a cheaper price and it takes valuable time to check something and if you keep doing it results in overtime and less time with your family at the end of the day, are you going to bother? If it was welded out of alignment by accident, how much extra time is it to fix it? I'm speculating here, but see my point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter P. View Post
    Does the bike ride fine no-handed? That's the litmus test for alignment; the numbers don't mean squat if you can't feel it. If the bike shimmies at higher speeds is another indicator.

    Your description of the "on ice" feeling leads me to think you have the wrong fork rake on the bike. I've experienced this "on ice" feeling with a bike that had a high rake/low trail. Decreasing the fork rake solved the problem. Your solution may be that simple.
    It's too hard to tell, as I think what you're describing is a degree of misalignment that is very very bad. I recall trying to take a photo with my phone no hands and never being able to do it. Except riding no hands isn't something I like to do, there's too much that can go wrong and stupid crashes result in injury and time of my bike. Not worth it IMO.

    The fork rake would be a valid argument, if it was different to what they spec with this frame in the bike builder. I considered this very carefully, and the rake I have should make leaning and handling -easier- and not harder. It's not twitchy steering, I love twitchey steering, it means I have more control with less input at the bars.

    I don't think this would cause such instability. You're completely ignoring my measurements and the ambiguity of his as well at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by ericm979 View Post
    If the alignment is very off, enough to cause handling problems, wouldn't it turn different in one direction than the other?

    Unsteady handling like you describe sounds like the wrong fork rake, too tight or loose headset, frame geometry or weight distribution.
    - Headset is absolutely perfect, Cane Creek 110, no play whatsoever.
    - Frame geometry is nearly the same as previous bike, longer stays though. I mean, it's a generic offering it shouldn't be this unstable. It's not a custom geo that's been designed specifically for me in violation of standard design practices.
    - Weight distribution? Please. Next I'm going to need to explain that I know how to ride a bike. For the record, I took it on quite a few descents and played with this, same problem every time.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibericb View Post
    If I were Don I would identify a reputable frame builder in Australia who could do the alignment check and straighten if necessary (shipping back and forth halfway around the world just risks even more damage). I would then tell the dealer to ship the frame to that local frame guy , and pay the bill to do so. I would pay the frame guy to do the work as needed. If the frame does prove to be out of alignment I would pay the shipping to return the frame to the customer. But, if it isn't then I'd leave it to the customer to pay the charges. I would then lose that dealer, and look for another to replace him., and have that new dealer help the OP determine his problem and get it resolved.

    It's about trying to help a customer out of a bad situation because of a lousy dealer who sounds incompetent. The problem the OP is confronted with is not likely a Lynskey issue, it's either someone in the shipping chain or that dealer. The dealer should be helping the customer, and clearly he isn't. Game over for the dealer.

    But I'm not Don.
    Yeah... I see your point. But if I was Remington and a customer reported misfires in a shotgun they bought from a retailer I'd want that weapon back to ME the manufacturer. I don't give a rats ass who broke it. I made it. It's dangerous. I want it off the market and out of harms way. I don't care if it's the fork. I get a safety concern I want action on that IMMEDIATELY! I wouldn't buy a Lynskey product on a bet after this thread. And I fully realize the OP might well be a hack and screwed up a dozen aspects of the "home" build. I wouldn't home build a bike. I'm not qualified. He/she likely isn't either. That's not my point... The fact that Lynskey cares more about where the damage might have occurred or who caused it, rather than being concerned about getting a suspicious product out of circulation is enough for me to check off the "you'd have to be nuts to buy a frame from these guys" box. They don't seem to care about putting riders on the ground regardless of whose fault it is. F them. Maybe that's why I'm a social worker and not a Captiain of Industry. Because being a Captian of Industry requires a contempt for human safety. At least in the case of Lynskey frames.
    To date, philosophers have merely interpreted the world in various ways. The point however is to change it.

  24. #24
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    You can certainly bend Ti tubing used in bike frames enough to lead to the kind of distortion you have reported, and it's not all that difficult. Given the number of hands it passed through between TN, USA and you, there surely were many opportunities to damage the bike enroute. If you still have the box you might consider taking some pics, including any markings or shipping info, sendng those to Don, and asking if the box is consistent with their packaging for shipment to Austraila.

    From everything noted here, your gripe is with the bike shop not Lynskey, unless you can somehow demonstrate that there was a manufacturing defect. So far I haven't seen anything to comes close to suggesting there is one. Do whatever you need to do to under Australian law to force the dealer's hand. As far as who has to prove or establish what, I have no clue how Australian law works. In the U.S. this would be a very gray area. In the U.S. if a shipper damages the frame in transit, then typically it would be up to the recipient (the bike shop) to note the damage and file the claim with the shipper. Often reputable retailers will take that on for a customer. Apparently that's not going to happen with this dealer.

    I wish you luck.
    "When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments."
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBL450 View Post
    And I fully realize the OP might well be a hack and screwed up a dozen aspects of the "home" build. I wouldn't home build a bike. I'm not qualified. He/she likely isn't either.
    I knew this would come up at some point or another, and this is clearly what is being insinuated by the bike shop AND Don at Lynskey.

    Now this is getting insulting. I made it clear to the bike shop, that when I built the bike I used all proper tools, torque specs and anti-seize in the build process.

    I mean, I'm not a freakin moron. I know how to build a bike, it's really not that difficult, years of DIY practice and maintenance (full strip downs and rebuilds, bi-annually) has taught me so much. I remember looking at a bike and not even being able to even label the parts. If there's a bike mechanic out there that thinks he knows everything then I don't even want to acknowledge him.

    Please, give me some examples of the dozen parts I've screwed up that would actually cause this problem.

    It's an unregulated industry, and there are no 'qualifications' you can seek to be a bike mechanic AFAIK, at least not in Australia.

    Because I don't built 10 bikes a day, kid's bikes, beach cruisers, all day long does that make my build any less reliable? I took my time and care with the build, and it was annoying to have to strip it down and send it back so soon. So there's that.

    I've heard of a so called 'professional mechanics' failing to set limit screws correctly and having a semi-pro cyclist crash uphill because the chain fell of under high load.

    I do my own bike fits too, because it's not an exact science. I've heard of someone going to three different bike fitters and getting different measurements every time. I mean, WTF?

    Otherwise, the rest of your post is a big
    Last edited by battler2; 05-16-2015 at 05:31 PM.

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