• 07-08-2007
    sevencycle
    where was the phone made that you called Titus on.
  • 07-08-2007
    rmsmith
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sevencycle
    where was the phone made that you called Titus on.

    All of the "over the counter" medications come from China too. Profits!
  • 07-09-2007
    ewitz
    All Cerveolo carbon frames are made in China.

    Does this make them any less desirable?
  • 07-29-2007
    TiDreaming
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ewitz
    All Cerveolo carbon frames are made in China.

    Does this make them any less desirable?


    Hell Yes. And if you say not you are only kidding yourself. Thats why frame makers and builders go to such great extent to misguide the consumer.

    If we just lived in an honest world..hmm..lets just say ideal world, then consumers should be able to safely assume that when a a bike stickers says "Made in Country X" then that is where said bike and its bit was made ie from primary manufacturing to final assembly was ..in Country X. But alas that is not how the real world operates.

    BTW very disappointed to find out RC Bianchi comes out of Asia:mad2: because being made in Taiwan is not nearly as reputable/"desirable" as being made in Italy. This may just be marketing perception..but then thats another debate altogether.
  • 07-30-2007
    Tri Slow Poke
    I posted this on another thread, but I thought I might pose a related question here:

    WHY IS IT A BAD THING THAT A BIKE IS MADE IN CHINA???

    Sure, it's romantic to think that an old Italian bike maker designs and creates frames in his garage. He does so with love and attention and sheds a tear every time one is sold. He then calls you once a year to check on how the bike is doing.

    WAKE UP PEOPLE! Many bike companies would charge an arm and a leg for their base level machines if they did it this way. Otherwise, they would go out of business. Maybe it's me, but I like the idea of my bike coming from a large factory that has a long history of creating frames with quality controls and standards.

    Next thing you'll tell is that your beloved American car is 100% "Made in the USA"
  • 07-30-2007
    stevesbike
    I'm surprised this question is coming from a tri. Go to slowtwitch and read some of their features on the bike biz. A lot of indepth writing on the inside of the bike business and Asian bike manufacturing especially. for example, http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadin...s/bikebiz.html

    The short answer is some people care because 1) Chinese manufacturing is highly unregulated, so manufacturing quality is an issue. There's a difference between designing a frame and having it built to specs with an agent overseeing the Q/C and buying lots of frames designed and built completely by a company that until two years ago either didn't exist or mostly built golf clubs. Shoddy Q/C is a big issue (e.g., toxic additives to foods that recently made the news). 2) some people care about labor laws, environmental practices etc. As the above link indicates, the paint on some frames in China wouldn't be allowed to be used in US manufacturing.
  • 07-30-2007
    C_T
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by stevesbike
    The short answer is some people care because 1) Chinese manufacturing is highly unregulated, so manufacturing quality is an issue. There's a difference between designing a frame and having it built to specs with an agent overseeing the Q/C and buying lots of frames designed and built completely by a company that until two years ago either didn't exist or mostly built golf clubs. Shoddy Q/C is a big issue (e.g., toxic additives to foods that recently made the news). 2) some people care about labor laws, environmental practices etc. As the above link indicates, the paint on some frames in China wouldn't be allowed to be used in US manufacturing.

    Exactly. Do you guys really want to support the Chinese government?
    Don't forget Tibet. :(
  • 07-30-2007
    Kung Fu Felice
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tri Slow Poke
    Sure, it's romantic to think that an old Italian bike maker designs and creates frames in his garage. He does so with love and attention and sheds a tear every time one is sold. He then calls you once a year to check on how the bike is doing.

    Seriously, you hit the nail on the head. Generally speaking, I observe 3 types of bicycle enthusiasts and the mixes in between.:
    1. The bicycle artiste: love of bicycle heritage, history, the art of bicycle making - cost is secondary (they'd pay $500 for 18 year old NOS Campy components); custom and vintage bikes are the bomb, because quite simply, it's all about craftsmanship and passion
    2. The racer: it's all about getting faster, better, lighter - every ounce saved is worth $$
    3. The commuter - just need to get to work on something that will last forever, and yes, money is important, so no need for Chris King if he can get something that works for $5 made in Cambodia.

    So those who show a disdain for China made bikes are mostly those with the attitude and sensibilities of the #1 bicycle enthusiast. #2 and #3 by far are about value: if it works the way it's supposed to, it matters not where it comes from.

    Your idea of "romantic" notions are absolutely correct. It applies to those who CARE where the bike came from, including the history of the builder as well as the history of that specific model. So, indeed, to those who have a romantic approach to bicycle ownership, "made in China" is unacceptable to them. That doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just a preference that shouldn't be criticized, because these bicycle enthusiasts approach bicycling with the same sort of passion as wine connoisseurs approach their object d'art.
  • 07-30-2007
    TiDreaming
    My point was never about romanticism or about being bad/good form where a product is made, its about the convolution and misleading representation of where these bike come from.

    End of the day, these tactics are used as less reputable companies know Joe Cyclist will be more likely spend his dollars on a frame/bike if he/she believes it was made in one of the highly regarded cycling manufacturers.
  • 07-30-2007
    sir duke
    Some observations from out east.
    Quote:

    Seriously, you hit the nail on the head. Generally speaking, I observe 3 types of bicycle enthusiasts and the mixes in between.:
    1. The bicycle artiste: love of bicycle heritage, history, the art of bicycle making - cost is secondary (they'd pay $500 for 18 year old NOS Campy components); custom and vintage bikes are the bomb, because quite simply, it's all about craftsmanship and passion
    2. The racer: it's all about getting faster, better, lighter - every ounce saved is worth $$
    3. The commuter - just need to get to work on something that will last forever, and yes, money is important, so no need for Chris King if he can get something that works for $5 made in Cambodia.

    So those who show a disdain for China made bikes are mostly those with the attitude and sensibilities of the #1 bicycle enthusiast. #2 and #3 by far are about value: if it works the way it's supposed to, it matters not where it comes from.

    Your idea of "romantic" notions are absolutely correct. It applies to those who CARE where the bike came from, including the history of the builder as well as the history of that specific model. So, indeed, to those who have a romantic approach to bicycle ownership, "made in China" is unacceptable to them. That doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just a preference that shouldn't be criticized, because these bicycle enthusiasts approach bicycling with the same sort of passion as wine connoisseurs approach their object d'art.
    That's a reasonable breakdown of the enthusiast demographic. I'd go so far as to suggest it's possible to be all three at once. I was when I commuted to work in London on a Campag Super Record equipped Bob Jackson 20 years ago (on tubulars naturally) and did the odd hill climb race with my club in Yorkshire.

    My problem is with the cynical way that types 1 and 2 are being treated. Here in Tokyo I see lots of high end bikes in the specialist shops and a fair percentage are 'legacy models' from Italy from the likes of Colnago and De Rosa. The weekend enthusiast here is often prepared to pay $6000 + for these machines. I've been appalled by the finish quality on some of these frames. The lining on the underside of the bottom bracket shell on three Colnago Master frames I saw recently looked like it was applied by some robot arm in severe need of calibration. Similarly the paintwork around the fork crown of a De Rosa steel framed bicycle was nothing short of scandalous. Inept beyond words. I wanted to take a photo with my camera phone as it had to be seen to be believed. The price tag on this bike was over 650,000 yen! The cheaper Tommassini machines on show were far better quality in terms of finish. I'm noticing more and more examples of shoddy workmanship coming from Italy, especially from Colnago. It's fine to get misty-eyed about the works of art produced in the past and I don't want to bash these fine frame builders but these days I think it's more important to buy the bike, not the history. So 'Type 1's' beware.

    I rode to this bike shop (it's called Nukaya in Naka Meguro south west Tokyo) on my 2005 model Kuota Kharma. The frame is made by Martec in China (I've heard they also make the Kestrel frames). It's a beautifully finished carbon frame with a great ride and amazing bang for buck value.(It gets maximum points in every review on RBR) I noticed a rather beautiful Klein Q Elite- the paintwork was far superior to the 6000 buck De Rosa facing it. It was also half the price. I was wishing it came as a frame only deal minus the boring Ultegra groupset (there's the bike snob in me) until I realised on closer inspection that I already owned the frame. It is identical in every respect to my Kuota frame of 2 years ago. Mmm. I went to Klein's homepage -take a look http://www.kleinbikes.com/, they have lots to say about 'their' carbon technology and the smarts that went into this new range. Just forgot to say who makes the damn thing.
    Lesson 2: Don't buy the history, buy the bike. Before you buy the bike, DO SOME RESEARCH and then buy the frame manufacturer.
  • 07-30-2007
    estone2
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Forrest Root
    All the bikes that aren't made outside of China are made in China.

    Orly?

    You're a lying b*stard, Forrest Root. I don't believe you.
  • 07-30-2007
    estone2
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sevencycle
    where did the carbon come tubes from ???

    considering that it's titanium...
  • 07-30-2007
    Tri Slow Poke
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TiDreaming
    My point was never about romanticism or about being bad/good form where a product is made, its about the convolution and misleading representation of where these bike come from.

    End of the day, these tactics are used as less reputable companies know Joe Cyclist will be more likely spend his dollars on a frame/bike if he/she believes it was made in one of the highly regarded cycling manufacturers.



    What tactics are you referring to? The Trek I bought had a "Made in China" sticker on it. Kuota's U.S. sales rep told me where his frames were manufactured with no hesitation.

    Many of the companies in China may not be highly regarded cycling companies, but many are high qualiy bike manufacturers!
  • 07-30-2007
    TiDreaming
    What tactics are you referring to? The Trek I bought had a "Made in China" sticker on it.

    If you have have read all the way down to this post I presumed you have read all the points above so I am not going to go over it again.

    Some how I would doubt that most bike dealers/retailers would be enthusiastic about divulging to the consumer that the bike they are interested in purchasing was "made in China". Converse is true I find IRL, if its "made in USA' or "made in Italy" it pretty much part of the sales pitch.

    Kuota's U.S. sales rep told me where his frames were manufactured with no hesitation.

    I would be worried if if the Kuota sales rep was hesitant about that information. Dont think he would sell too many bikes otherwise.
  • 07-30-2007
    Forrest Root
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by estone2
    Orly?

    You're a lying b*stard, Forrest Root. I don't believe you.

    It's true. I have verifiable proof.
  • 07-31-2007
    raghead
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by C_T
    Exactly. Do you guys really want to support the Chinese government?
    Don't forget Tibet. :(

    Or harvesting organs for transplant from religious/political prisoners (Falun Dafa practicioners). Or displacing millions for the new dam...
  • 07-31-2007
    Aktion
    They have moderate to serious quality control issues in China (and Taiwan). Since you have to buy bikes by the container full, you need a rep there to make sure that they actually filled it with bikes and not toilet paper ( which you already paid for!).

    Overall they are not THAT bad (for the money). If you are the type of rider who buys a new bike every 2 years then Chinese made bikes are fine.
  • 07-31-2007
    Tri Slow Poke
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TiDreaming
    What tactics are you referring to? The Trek I bought had a "Made in China" sticker on it.

    If you have have read all the way down to this post I presumed you have read all the points above so I am not going to go over it again.

    Some how I would doubt that most bike dealers/retailers would be enthusiastic about divulging to the consumer that the bike they are interested in purchasing was "made in China". Converse is true I find IRL, if its "made in USA' or "made in Italy" it pretty much part of the sales pitch.

    Kuota's U.S. sales rep told me where his frames were manufactured with no hesitation.

    I would be worried if if the Kuota sales rep was hesitant about that information. Dont think he would sell too many bikes otherwise.




    I see that you (among others) are taking my comments personally and getting sensitive about it. I'm not sure why, but I'll stop posting on the subject after this. Most of our clothes., electronics, and automobiles are made in Asian countries. Heck, the computer I'm using was made in a factory! Like everything else, the consumer is responsible for what they buy and not the company's "sales pitch".

    I also find it interesting that a few folks here mentioned the "unregulated" factory workers in Asia who have terrible working conditions. I'd like to remind everyone that a two income family making minumum wage in the U.S. still lives under the poverty line.......but that's a topic for another board.
  • 07-31-2007
    sevencycle
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by raghead
    Or harvesting organs for transplant from religious/political prisoners (Falun Dafa practicioners). Or displacing millions for the new dam...

    but remember they did give us fortune cookies!!!!
  • 07-31-2007
    TiDreaming
    [QUOTE=Tri Slow Poke]I see that you (among others) are taking my comments personally and getting sensitive about it.

    Please dont stop posting your side of the debate. I m not sensitive..maybe a consumer advocate:thumbsup:
  • 07-31-2007
    Kung Fu Felice
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tri Slow Poke
    What tactics are you referring to? The Trek I bought had a "Made in China" sticker on it. Kuota's U.S. sales rep told me where his frames were manufactured with no hesitation.

    Many of the companies in China may not be highly regarded cycling companies, but many are high qualiy bike manufacturers!


    I have been told by posters here that my Bianchi 928 C2C RC despite what the sticker says, the frame is produced in China and only assembled/painted in Italy; so even though the sticker on the frame says "handmade in Italy" it isn't exactly "handmade" in Italy to the same degree as a Look or Time frame that is entirely made in France. IMO, this is misleading, because when I purchased the bike, the retailer made a big deal about pointing out the "handmade" sticker - how bogus is that?
  • 07-31-2007
    Bianchi67
    I too have a Bianchi carbon frame with a handmade in Italy sticker. I purchased a frame only so there was no "assembly" anywhere except my garage. The frame is nude carbon without any clearcoat. Should a quick spay for the downtube "Bianchi" logo qualify the made in Italy? I think they should be up front about it.

    I don't have an issue with where the frame is made, as long as the company is honest about it. I applaud Colnago for doing just that, clearing stating models like the CLX are not made in Italy. Because of that, my last frame purchase was a Colnago.
  • 07-31-2007
    Tri Slow Poke
    [QUOTE=TiDreaming]
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tri Slow Poke
    I see that you (among others) are taking my comments personally and getting sensitive about it.

    Please dont stop posting your side of the debate. I m not sensitive..maybe a consumer advocate:thumbsup:


    Sounds good! I'll keep posting!!

    I understand what you're saying, but it just seems inconsistent. First, it's the consumer's responsibility to know what they are buying. It's not the seller's. Besides, I ran a simple Google search and found the orgin of certain "Italian" frames. I appreciate your defense of the consumer, but a consumer educating him/herself before they spend $$$ on a bike.

    Besides, I think that I would rather go with a company that makes alot of frames (i.e. Martec) rather than a place that didn't make as many.
  • 07-31-2007
    TiDreaming
    First, it's the consumer's responsibility to know what they are buying. It's not the seller's.

    I completely agree, but when the manufactures purposefully mislead the consumer, the consumer has very little chance.

    I appreciate your defense of the consumer, but a consumer educating him/herself before they spend $$$ on a bike.

    In part this is why I am posting...its about education.

    Besides, I think that I would rather go with a company that makes alot of frames (i.e. Martec) rather than a place that didn't make as many.

    Dont take this personally..but this is grossly wrong as what you are implying is that volume = quality. There is no way a Ferrari is gonna be inferior to a Ford, this may be an over simplication but you get the point.
  • 07-31-2007
    de.abeja
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Steave Waugh
    China is the great market for bikes and China made brands are very populler in all over the world.........

    Yes Steve they are very POPULLER!