Why no "value" brand endurance/sportive frames?
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  1. #1
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    Why no "value" brand endurance/sportive frames?

    Why is it that the off-brands don't sell a bike with Roubaix/Defy/Synapse/RS/Z/CR1 style geometry? There's obviously a huge market for it- look at all the gray hair at your next century ride. The average age at Levi's Gran Fondo was 44.5. I'd think Sette, Scattante, Neuvation, Ferazzi, Planet X, etc etc would want a piece of the action. The only one I know of is the Motobecane Century (even that one I'm not sure about).

    Is the deal that they're all getting their frames from the same factory, one which doesn't like long head tubes?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appendage
    Why is it that the off-brands don't sell a bike with Roubaix/Defy/Synapse/RS/Z/CR1 style geometry? There's obviously a huge market for it- look at all the gray hair at your next century ride. The average age at Levi's Gran Fondo was 44.5. I'd think Sette, Scattante, Neuvation, Ferazzi, Planet X, etc etc would want a piece of the action. The only one I know of is the Motobecane Century (even that one I'm not sure about).

    Is the deal that they're all getting their frames from the same factory, one which doesn't like long head tubes?
    Looking at the geometry charts, I'm assuming you're talking about tall head tubes. I thought the Scattante head tubes were pretty tall for the TT length. Maybe not as tall as the Roubaix, but much taller than a traditional style frame. What's the cut-off for "sportive" head tubes? If a Roubaix is 5.5 cm taller than a traditional level TT frame, why doesn't the Scattante's 4 cm of addition head tube angle height count?

  3. #3
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    If that's the case I'd guess middle age cyclists looking to save money by going with off brands over the internet isn't a big enough market segment to justify these companies targeting it.

    That type of rider generally has a bike already which isn't to get busted up because it's not raced, have money, and tend to prefer known and trusted brands.

  4. #4
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    They grey hair I see on my rides still enjoy über race bikes, and most of the time, they still appear to have some legs. Look is a recurring theme. One day they'll show up with an older KG386, and then another day with their 586.

    Ideas are they grew with the brand, and/or simply have the money at that age to get what they want.

  5. #5
    wim
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appendage
    Is the deal that they're all getting their frames from the same factory, one which doesn't like long head tubes?
    Part of the deal is that the long head tube allows you to ride an optically small frame ("pro style") while sitting more upright ("not so pro style"). With older folks not being that concerned about projecting a pro racer image, many of them simply go for one size larger frame, which cancels the need for a long head tube.
    Last edited by wim; 12-01-2010 at 09:06 AM.

  6. #6
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    surly? soma? no?

    don't just look at HT length... if the fork is longer the HT can be shorter while still providing rise
    .


    Quote Originally Posted by mikagsd
    Fat tire Fred....you are the bike god of the universe and unless someone agrees with your reasoning they are just plain stupid

  7. #7
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    Yeah, mostly

    Quote Originally Posted by rx-79g
    Looking at the geometry charts, I'm assuming you're talking about tall head tubes. I thought the Scattante head tubes were pretty tall for the TT length. Maybe not as tall as the Roubaix, but much taller than a traditional style frame. What's the cut-off for "sportive" head tubes? If a Roubaix is 5.5 cm taller than a traditional level TT frame, why doesn't the Scattante's 4 cm of addition head tube angle height count?
    Yeah, long head tubes are part of it, along with some combination of the following: longer chain stays, relatively shorter top tube, slacker angles.

    And yeah, I do think you guys are right, that crowd either has the money to buy whatever they want, or, rides an old classic bike.

    Here's another weird thing I noticed about the off-brands I mentioned: they don't like 56cm ETTs. Everything thing is usually 55 or 57cm. But all the Big Brand generally stick with even numbers. Whaddup wit dat?

  8. #8
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    The largest demographic to purchase those sorts of bikes are also the sorts who value dealing with a large, known company, and getting an original product; not a generic copy. They also usually have the money to do so.
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  9. #9
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    really the big guys have gotten quite a bit cheaper on those bikes too
    a Cannondale synapse carbon can be had for $1800 MSRP
    a Spec Roubaix starts at $2000 msrp

    both of those can usually be had for $200 under msrp

    that doesn't leave much room beneath for carbon comfort frames, as most folks will pay a couple hundred bucks more for a name they've heard of vs a lesser known brand

  10. #10
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    I agree with the other poster, that most of these frames are pretty much "sportive" or comfort frames. The head tubes on a true race bike (Cannondale Six, Felt F, Trek Pro fit) are far shorter than most of these budget frames.
    "I'm a real athlete, I'm not trying to be the best at exercising." - Kenny Powers

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appendage
    Yeah, long head tubes are part of it, along with some combination of the following: longer chain stays, relatively shorter top tube, slacker angles.

    And yeah, I do think you guys are right, that crowd either has the money to buy whatever they want, or, rides an old classic bike.

    Here's another weird thing I noticed about the off-brands I mentioned: they don't like 56cm ETTs. Everything thing is usually 55 or 57cm. But all the Big Brand generally stick with even numbers. Whaddup wit dat?
    I just looked at the Roubaix chart again. I don't see anything special in TT or chainstay length. The 54cm has a 55cm TT, which is not short. Nor is the 100cm wheelbase. These bikes are pretty much racing bikes with tall head tubes.

    It doesn't appear to me that there there is a lack of this poorly defined kind of bicycle. What is in short supply is the type of "sportive" that has genuinely long chain stays, fender clearance and longer reach brakes.

  12. #12
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    Felt Z frames come in entry-level configurations both in carbon and even more so in the aluminum frame. (I believe they make a "Sora" level Z bike, definitely Tiagara and 105).

    Scott Speedster has fairly relaxed geometry and comes in "Sora" and above level packages too.

    The CR1 comes in "105" level, depending on your POV, could be considered affordable.

    So far, I haven't seen a cheap generic frame with this sort of design though. But I haven't looked since early '10.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camilo
    Felt Z frames come in entry-level configurations both in carbon and even more so in the aluminum frame. (I believe they make a "Sora" level Z bike, definitely Tiagara and 105).

    Scott Speedster has fairly relaxed geometry and comes in "Sora" and above level packages too.

    The CR1 comes in "105" level, depending on your POV, could be considered affordable.

    So far, I haven't seen a cheap generic frame with this sort of design though. But I haven't looked since early '10.


    not sure everyone would consider felt or scott a 'value brand', but whatever...
    .


    Quote Originally Posted by mikagsd
    Fat tire Fred....you are the bike god of the universe and unless someone agrees with your reasoning they are just plain stupid

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatTireFred
    not sure everyone would consider felt or scott a 'value brand', but whatever...
    Probably a misunderstanding of terms. The Felt Z100, Sora-type, has MSRP of $800, street price probably close to $700. Is not that considered Value? Without looking it up, I'd bet the Scott Speedster lower level bikes are similar. And don't forget the lower end Giant Defy - similar pricepoints, similar frame design. Good quality frames, decent, functional components, that's what I thought value meant.

    I thought we were talking about entry level pricepoints, but I guess I'm misunderstanding the idea here.

    Are we talking about affordable, entry level road bikes with that type of geometry, or are we talking about the inexpensive generic framesets, and/or semi-generic like Pedal Force? I haven't seen any of those type of frames among the generic sources, and I looked pretty hard last year.

  15. #15
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    kestrel

    If I recall correctly the newest Kestrel RT-900 (I'm not even sure that's the right designation) has a relatively tall headtube/short top tube combination. Would you consider that "off-brand"?

  16. #16
    AJL
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    Post removed (wrong forum).
    Last edited by AJL; 12-02-2010 at 05:18 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlatyPius
    The largest demographic to purchase those sorts of bikes are also the sorts who value dealing with a large, known company, and getting an original product; not a generic copy. They also usually have the money to do so.
    I'm in that demographic and I'm not interested in bargain basement bike with bottom end components. I've done the Seattle to Portland several times and the majority of the bikes are mid to upper end models.
    Retired sailor

  18. #18
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    These guys like to pretend they're much younger, so you see them on sportier pro race bikes. Either that, or they've reached a cycling nirvana and buy frames custom-built for them.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appendage
    Why is it that the off-brands don't sell a bike with Roubaix/Defy/Synapse/RS/Z/CR1 style geometry? There's obviously a huge market for it- look at all the gray hair at your next century ride. The average age at Levi's Gran Fondo was 44.5. I'd think Sette, Scattante, Neuvation, Ferazzi, Planet X, etc etc would want a piece of the action. The only one I know of is the Motobecane Century (even that one I'm not sure about).

    Is the deal that they're all getting their frames from the same factory, one which doesn't like long head tubes?
    You maybe correct that semi-compact & compact frame designs with taller HT are not as available as some people would like to see.

    However, we are adding a lot more and have had several for years

    Dawes Lightning series [about 8 models]
    Moto Century [about 4 models]
    Moto le Champion CF & Ti models [about 10 bikes and adding about 4 more soon]

    We just added Gravity Avenue & Liberty models [6 levels of bikes]. These have been selling great and based on same geo there are 5 more models coming in spring at 105, ultegra, and dura-ace level. This frame is popular and we may add Apex, Rival, Force, & Red versions.

    We have in stock two CF Cafe models with lots of tire clearance [which are flat bar]; but the frame is very interesting and semi-compact. These just have not gone on site yet.

    Most interesting and fun to me is the new Motobecane Century Ti bikes. [out this spring]. Road bikes with wide tire clearance; but semi-compact geo leaned a bit towards touring. Angles relaxed a bit, wheelbase a bit longer, Ti frame & CF fork built to a fit bit wider tires, -- stock bikes will come with Contintental Sport Contact 700x32c: but the brakes and setup will work fine for any tire from 23c to 38c. This is one of the most comfortable road bikes I have ever riden. I decided to bring 3 levels of this very different design [Apex 20, 105-30, and ultegra-30], if it takes off like I think it will; we will add DA & Red 20. I road a Raleigh International in the late 70s as an everyday commuter; 531 with sew-ups; but very long & relaxed. These Moto Century Ti bikes are the modern approach to getting the same feel from a club racer type bike. I am very excited about these as I see them as different than your standand fair.

    Plus more in the normal bike range; Motobecane is adding 5 DB AL semi-compact road and 3 DB AL/CF semi-compact road in summer of 2011 as 2012 models. These all have taller HT like the Dawes & Gravity AL road bikes.

    So with dozens of semi-compact models with taller than traditional HT, I think we are in line with the trend [but I admit that I may have been a bit late to the party as an old guy who still likes traditional frames a lot]

    BTW; would anyone like to comment on semi-compact for CX?. All our cyclo-cross bikes are more traditional. Including wires on TT with roller for frt der, and traditional geo. I see more & more CX bikes with wires under DT & some with taller HT / semi-compact. Do you feel semi-compact in CX is a good direction? Would a real tall HT on CX be desirable? Do wires under DT bother you for CX?

    More choices in cycle designs is hard on the business model of the industry; but I think it is great for cyclists.
    mike
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  20. #20
    AJL
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    Most interesting and fun to me is the new Motobecane Century Ti bikes. [out this spring]. Road bikes with wide tire clearance; but semi-compact geo leaned a bit towards touring. Angles relaxed a bit, wheelbase a bit longer, Ti frame & CF fork built to a fit bit wider tires, -- stock bikes will come with Contintental Sport Contact 700x32c: but the brakes and setup will work fine for any tire from 23c to 38c. This is one of the most comfortable road bikes I have ever riden. I decided to bring 3 levels of this very different design [Apex 20, 105-30, and ultegra-30], if it takes off like I think it will; we will add DA & Red 20. I road a Raleigh International in the late 70s as an everyday commuter; 531 with sew-ups; but very long & relaxed. These Moto Century Ti bikes are the modern approach to getting the same feel from a club racer type bike. I am very excited about these as I see them as different than your standand fair.
    Cool, will it be available as a frame and fork as well?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appendage
    Why is it that the off-brands don't sell a bike with Roubaix/Defy/Synapse/RS/Z/CR1 style geometry? There's obviously a huge market for it- look at all the gray hair at your next century ride. The average age at Levi's Gran Fondo was 44.5. I'd think Sette, Scattante, Neuvation, Ferazzi, Planet X, etc etc would want a piece of the action. The only one I know of is the Motobecane Century (even that one I'm not sure about).

    Is the deal that they're all getting their frames from the same factory, one which doesn't like long head tubes?
    I went back over your list. Sette and Neuvation appear to make traditional level TT bikes, a look not conducive to tall HTs. Scattante and Planet X do make less expensive bikes with taller head tubes.

    I've also read that comfort type road bikes are the fastest growing market segment.

    What is it you're looking for?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJL
    Cool, will it be available as a frame and fork as well?

    Yes
    for under $1000 for Ti frame, CF fork, and headset
    mike
    http://www.bikesdirect.com - supports Mtbr.com and RoadBikeReview.com as great places to exchange ideas
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  23. #23
    AJL
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    Yes
    for under $1000 for Ti frame, CF fork, and headset
    Awesome, English BB? Have any Geo info yet?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesdirect
    Yes
    for under $1000 for Ti frame, CF fork, and headset
    OK, so you have my interest as well, when will it be available? Link to page?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJL
    Awesome, English BB? Have any Geo info yet?

    Yes, English BB [like all bikes we do]

    Have Geo and drawing
    will post on site when the bikes and frames are on the way
    they are do in late spring
    mike
    http://www.bikesdirect.com - supports Mtbr.com and RoadBikeReview.com as great places to exchange ideas
    ~~~~
    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." – Mahatma Ghandi

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