Need advice: Campy 11s drivetrain pulsating noises
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  1. #1
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    Need advice: Campy 11s drivetrain pulsating noises

    hi guys,

    need some advice on this..

    my drivetrain (SR11) is practically new, approx 100miles on it.
    there's some pulsating noises (knocking) and is very obvious when the bike is on stationary. it only happens on 15t-16t-17t cogs, occurs about 3times per revolution.
    the pulsation can be felt on the pedals while turning the wheels,

    chainline is fine, shifting is basically smooth as well (although the drivetrain is a little dirty due to the campy original grease )
    F/D is not hitting the right crank arms as well, and shifts pretty well - except somehow the 11s F/D feels a little harder to shift compare with the 10s

    anyway, what do you guys think is wrong with this? what should i check?
    could it be the BB causing the abnormal noises? but if it's the BB, then why does it only occur between the 15t to 17t cogs? im wondering..

    thanks for helping!

    cheers

  2. #2
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    thoughts...

    I would have removed the nasty grease from the chain before installing it. Since you didn't, apply some sort of solvent thinned lubed to help get it off more quickly (even WD-40 is OK). Give the chain 2-300 miles to loosen up.

    As for the FD, be sure that the shift cable was properly routed, over the back of the metal tab near the cable clamp bolt, not between the tab and the bolt. If the cable is routed between the tab and clamp bolt, it will shorten the lever arm length, increase the operating force and foul up the trim function. With the incorrect routing, the first click of the thumb buttom will usually drop the chain onto the little ring instead of making a trim adjustment.
    Last edited by C-40; 03-14-2009 at 09:05 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-40
    I would have removed the nasty grease from the chain before installing it. Since you didn't, apply some sort of solvent thinned lubed to help get it off more quickly (even WD-40 is OK). Give the chain 2-300 miles to loosen up.

    As for the FD, be sure that the shift cabel was properly routed, over the back of the metal tab near the cable clamp bolt, not between the tab and the bolt. If the cable is routed between the tab and clamp bolt, it will shorten the lever arm length, increase the operating force and foul up the trim function. Wiht the incorrect routing, the first click of the thumb buttom will sually drop the chain onto the little ring instead of making a trim adjustment.
    Thanks C40.
    eveyrthing is as it should be, the drivetrain has been properly cleaned up and new chain lube applied.
    F/D clamp bolts route is correct.
    It seems this phenomenon is only obvious when it's on stationary. i've tested earlier riding on the road but the pulsation is not apparent.

    I will test out tmr and share my observation with you guys.

    cheers.

  4. #4
    em3
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    Have you adjusted your b-screw? This is the screw next to your upper pulley. Sounds like your rear der may be too close to the cogs. Give it a full turn counter-clockwise to release tension a bit and allow the der to hang a bit further from your cogs.
    EM3

  5. #5
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    thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by em3
    Have you adjusted your b-screw? This is the screw next to your upper pulley. Sounds like your rear der may be too close to the cogs. Give it a full turn counter-clockwise to release tension a bit and allow the der to hang a bit further from your cogs.
    EM3
    EM3, C40,

    Thanks for the great suggestion guys.
    today i hit my first 300km on the new Campy 11.

    Basically, the shifting is pretty good.
    Adjusted the b-screw and the noise has reduce, although still not as quiet as my old 10s.

    btw, i'm trying to get the best possible result. at the moment, when using the small chainring with combination of all the rear cogs, the noise is normal. noise is only apparent on the big chainring with the 16t-17t cogs.

    could this be due to insufficient tension on the barrel adjustment? the H-limit screws has been adjusted, L-limit is basically okay and did not exhibit an overshift, although it's a little less than perfect.
    should i readjustment the L-limit? and reconfirm the barrel adjuster again?

    thanks guys.

    cheers

  6. #6
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    more...

    Limit screws have no effect on the noise in the middle cogs. It's common for the cable tension to loosen during the first few rides and normal to have to increase the tension by 1/4 to 1/2 turn on each of the first several rides. After the initial stretching, it should rarely need any adjustment. Pay attention to whether the shifts to larger or smaller cogs seems to be slow. Slow shifts to smaller cogs means too much cable tension.

  7. #7
    em3
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    Mavarick, when I suggested the b-screw adjustment I was referring to what Campy is now calling the "h-screw" on their instructions sheet (formally referred to as the b-screw on earlier models of rear mechs from Campy and most all other manufacturers...it appears that Campy now calls their lower cage limit adjustment screw the b-screw). The h-screw is essentially what sets the distance between your upper pulley and your cogs through the entire ratio of cogs. I think Campy suggests 7mm...I suggest adjusting your upper pulley as close as possible until there is no noise, vibration or other anomalies at play. If you are running a wider ration (i.e. 12-27) you will most likely need to let your h-screw out a bit (counterclockwise) in order to get a bit of distance between your upper pulley and cogs, especially on the larger cogs. See the URL below for a quick tutorial on b-screw (h-screw) adjustment: http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/fix/?id=howfix_deroh

    C-40 is correct that the upper/lower limit screws will not make a difference on the adjustment of your middle cogs, however, the lower limit screw (small cog adjustment) does play a role if it is not set correctly at the lower cog position. Essentially, if your first cog is not dialed in and correctly centered then as you begin shifting to other cogs in your range, they too will be out of adjustment. I have noticed that dialing in the first cog is of particular importance with the 11 speed system.
    Good luck
    EM3

  8. #8
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    ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by em3
    Mavarick, when I suggested the b-screw adjustment I was referring to what Campy is now calling the "h-screw" on their instructions sheet (formally referred to as the b-screw on earlier models of rear mechs from Campy and most all other manufacturers...it appears that Campy now calls their lower cage limit adjustment screw the b-screw). The h-screw is essentially what sets the distance between your upper pulley and your cogs through the entire ratio of cogs. I think Campy suggests 7mm...I suggest adjusting your upper pulley as close as possible until there is no noise, vibration or other anomalies at play. If you are running a wider ration (i.e. 12-27) you will most likely need to let your h-screw out a bit (counterclockwise) in order to get a bit of distance between your upper pulley and cogs, especially on the larger cogs. See the URL below for a quick tutorial on b-screw (h-screw) adjustment: http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/fix/?id=howfix_deroh

    C-40 is correct that the upper/lower limit screws will not make a difference on the adjustment of your middle cogs, however, the lower limit screw (small cog adjustment) does play a role if it is not set correctly at the lower cog position. Essentially, if your first cog is not dialed in and correctly centered then as you begin shifting to other cogs in your range, they too will be out of adjustment. I have noticed that dialing in the first cog is of particular importance with the 11 speed system.
    Good luck
    EM3
    C40.
    Thanks a bunch .

    EM3,
    just to reconfirm, regarding the 7mm distance that you mentioned, does it mean the distance have to be 7mm across the entire range of the cassette? from the smallest to the largest cog?
    btw, im using the 11-25 cassette.

    also, do you have any tips to get the best possible setting for the first cog (lower limit adjustment)? i did refer to Park Tool's website and just wondering if there's any special techniques for Campy 11s, in addition to the standard adjustment method.

    btw, great advice guys..highly appreciated.

    cheers.

  9. #9
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    Same issue

    HI Maverick,

    I just finished my Campy Chorus 11 build and noticed the same pulsating noice when the bike is on the repair stand or stationary on the trainer. I'll definitely apply C40's advice. Apart from that, it shifts great, looks great, performs great.

    Thanks,

    Joe
    Ow.. ow.. oww... CRAMP!

  10. #10
    em3
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    Mavrrick, I have never actually measured the distance, I have simply adjusted the b-screw (h-screw) in half-turn increments until the chatter goes away. If properly adjusted I suspect the distance between upper pulley and all the cogs along the range will stay consistent, however, I can also imagine that the distance will vary according to a number of factors (dropout length, hanger position on dropout, chain length, etc).

    One addtl issue to consider is whether your der hanger is precisely aligned. Given the tighter spacing on the 11 speed stuff a hanger that is even only slightly unaligned will result in poor shifting…this is an issue that is often overlooked by many.

    I ride a Cervelo R3 and had to change my der hanger from the stock stamped unit to a stronger/stiffer machined unit by Wheels Manufacturing. The stock hanger (eventhough it was aligned) was simply to flexible and the resulted in sloppy shifting with my Campy stuff (there are a variety of threads on this issue on other newsgroups).

    Good luck.
    EM3

  11. #11
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    Hi EM3, C40, Santosjep,

    Well..i think what is most important for me now is how to reduce the drivetrain noise, not so much of a concern on the pulsating issues since i realise the problem goes away when i ride on the road.

    The derailleur hanger is aligned. Shifting is basically smooth. i've adjusted the H-screw as you stated but the sound is still loud. H-distance is 6mm, as opposed to 7mm recommended by Campy. as for now, the 3rd and 4th cogs from the smallest seems loudest. i've put on some lubes (PEDROS ICE WAX) but it's still very audible. found that it is not due to the tension adjustment. i pulled the R/D wires to check on the tension but not much of a difference either.

    getting a little frustrated though
    arghh..

    if i adjust the H-screw and bring the upper pulley closer towards the cogs, what are the effects? would this surpress the noise more?
    here's a quote from Park Tool's website,"If there is a large gap between the upper pulley and cog, loosen the screw. To find a good setting, loosen the B-screw until the upper pulley begins to rub, then tighten the screw to get clearance."
    the information doesn't mentioned the distance between the upper distance with the cogs. if we stick to Campy's 7mm, it definitely wouldn't help much to reduce the drivetrain noise.

    here's what i have done:
    1. check Rear Derailleur upper/lower limit set screws
    2. check F/Derailleur upper/lower limit set screws
    3. H screws (body alignment) adjusted to 6mm
    4. R/D barrel - tension adjusted
    5. Lube chain with Pedros Ice Wax

    Appreciate for any other ideas/comments.

    Cheers

  12. #12
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    thoughts...

    The H screw is not going to increase or decerease any noise, unless of course, the upper pulley actually touches the largest cog. As Campy's instructions tell you, it only affects "snappy" shifting. It's not that critical.

    I don't know if chain length was ever mentioned, but a lot of people don't seem to get it right. If the chain is too long, it would hang loose or rub on the RD cage in the small/small combo. If too short it would cause the cage to be completely extended in the big/big. With an 25 large cog, the big/big should still leave enough travel for another 2T at the minimum. I always set mine in the small/small, to the longest possible length to insure maximum wrap capacity.

    Is this noise constant, or just in the middle cogs? Some chain noise is fairly common when the chainline is almost perfectly straight, in the middle cogs. Some frames are great sounding boards and make this noise sound worse than it is.

    I don't think much of ice wax, it's too thick to penetrate well. I prefer a wet lube that penetrates. I use a 4/1 mix of naptha and oil. Don't scream, but even a couple of applications of WD-40 won't hurt to wash out the old lube. I've got one 11 speed chain that will be lubed with nothing but WD-40 just to prove that it works. It's got as much oil in it as my home brew.

  13. #13
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    is my Chorus-11 front cable routed wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by C-40
    ...As for the FD, be sure that the shift cable was properly routed, over the back of the metal tab near the cable clamp bolt, not between the tab and the bolt. If the cable is routed between the tab and clamp bolt, it will shorten the lever arm length, increase the operating force and foul up the trim function.
    With the incorrect routing, the first click of the thumb buttom will usually drop the chain onto the little ring instead of making a trim adjustment.
    Uh-oh, did I install my front cable wrong? See pic below, derailler shown on large ring.

    Campy instructions are
    " ... secure it [FD cable] in the groove underneath washer ...
    But when I examined the washer & mounting surface, I don't recall any locating groove ... unlike RD, where there is a groove in the clamp-down clip/washer.

    When I'm on 50t chainring & a middle cog, I have noticed that 1 FD thumb click does move the FD cage quite a distance inward, and a lot of chain rubbing occurs.

    However, when on small 34t ring, clicks of the FD paddle still do provide nice trimming increments of moving cage outward ... seems not symmetrical.
    .
    Attached Images Attached Images

  14. #14
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    wrong...

    That's not the right way to route the cable for an '09 FD. It goes behind the tab, then over the bolt. I should take 4 clciks to cover the full range of travel.

  15. #15
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    Thanks for replying, C40.

    But, when you say "behind the tab" , is that equivalent to "route cable to left side of protruding black tab at 7 oclock position, then wrap cable clockwise around screw"

    I'll do the re-routing later tonite or early AM, and see if improves FD performance.
    Campy does need a better diagram of this routing, it was unclear to me

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-40
    That's not the right way to route the cable for an '09 FD. It goes behind the tab, then over the bolt. I should take 4 clciks to cover the full range of travel
    As a point of reference, I noted that when the Chorus-11 FD cable is disconnected, it requires 6 clicks for full travel (thumb- or paddle-lever).
    Haven't yet re-connected cable and re-adjusted FD for normal operation, will report back ...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom_h
    As a point of reference, I noted that when the Chorus-11 FD cable is disconnected, it requires 6 clicks for full travel (thumb- or paddle-lever).
    Haven't yet re-connected cable and re-adjusted FD for normal operation, will report back ...
    But when cable is properly re-routed and adjusted, it is indeed 4 clicks, as C-40 said! Thanks

    This FD cable routing is critical, yet the Campy instructions are unclear.

    I think I may re-submit all this info as a separate post, with correct & wrong photos, so that it will be easier to find.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom_h
    But when cable is properly re-routed and adjusted, it is indeed 4 clicks, as C-40 said! Thanks

    This FD cable routing is critical, yet the Campy instructions are unclear.

    I think I may re-submit all this info as a separate post, with correct & wrong photos, so that it will be easier to find.
    tom_h.

    yep, please post a picture and share the learnings with us.

    cheers

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick
    tom_h.
    yep, please post a picture and share the learnings with us.
    cheers
    Done
    http://forums.roadbikereview.com/sho...d.php?t=171968

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