Upgrade from Chorus 9 speed - should I go to 10, or 11 speed separates? - Page 2
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  1. #26
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    Good luck! It sounds like you need a major upgrade at some point, but not today!

  2. #27
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    Thanks, everyone ! I wonder if there is any difference in shifting quality between a Veloce 13-29 and a Centaur 12-30 ? I think I can ignore the price difference.Although I quite like any bottom end I can get for climbing, I do not need a 12T, and I would miss the 16T...

    12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-27-30

    13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-26-29

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    Thanks, everyone ! I wonder if there is any difference in shifting quality between a Veloce 13-29 and a Centaur 12-30 ? I think I can ignore the price difference.Although I quite like any bottom end I can get for climbing, I do not need a 12T, and I would miss the 16T...

    12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-27-30

    13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-26-29
    I have run every level of 10-speed cassette. There's no difference in shifting quality.

    The Veloce cogs are all separate and have a lower level of finish. The Centaur 12-30 is unique for Campy in that it is the only 10-speed cassette with the three largest cogs mounted together.

    From what you say it's probably better to try the Veloce. Is your shifter 10-speed? I could not make out from your description.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  4. #29
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    Not yet...since I am buying new shifters, RDs, chain and cassette, I asked for an advice as to what to buy - as usual, I buy 2 from everything.It drives me nuts if I do not have a spare Campagnolo part for everything, as they are not easy to come by, and most European shops ( read : Wiggle ) sell them at ridiculous prices.
    When the chainrings wear off, I will change my 34 / 50 for 33 / 46.

  5. #30
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    If you want multiple shifting, your choices are:

    2000-2008 Record, Chorus, or 2000-2006 Centaur. All had the identical "G-spring" internals.

    or If you want to try the new shape which offers better ergonomics, better braking from the hoods and more hand positions, then avoid 2009 at all costs and go for 2010-11 Ultrashift Centaur or Veloce - identical.

    or If you don't need multiple shifting, then Current Veloce is excellent.

    With all the choices above go with a current 10-speed RD, Veloce being my suggestion. Athena if you want medium cage. There is no difference in geometry or actuation ratio.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  6. #31
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    Well, I will definetely buy the Record shifters for their beauty and ultra-shift option.But will any 10-speed RD work fine with the ultra-shift ? Not to sound like a snob, but isn`t skimping on a RD absurd, when you have Record shifters and an el-cheapo RD...funny...I would buy the Record medium cage RD, but I fear that the carbon plate will wear off.I will buy either Veloce or Record, as only they are available at a good price in European online shops.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    Well, I will definetely buy the Record shifters for their beauty and ultra-shift option.But will any 10-speed RD work fine with the ultra-shift ? Not to sound like a snob, but isn`t skimping on a RD absurd, when you have Record shifters and an el-cheapo RD...funny...I would buy the Record medium cage RD, but I fear that the carbon plate will wear off.I will buy either Veloce or Record, as only they are available at a good price in European online shops.
    Ultra-shift refers to the post 2009 generation, when Record went to 11. I'm assuming you are referring to the older Ergopower? When Centaur, Chorus and Record were identical internally 2000-2006.

    And yes, both Cheap and I are recommending the later RD design - either Veloce or Athena as clearing a large Cassette better. It will work with the older shifters.

    Like with wine, people just assume that if you pay more it must be better. Not necessarily. And the Campy line is a good example.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  8. #33
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    Everybody in this forum is so helpful...that is worth is own weight in gold.Especially, compared to the greedy, lying LBS ! Do you mean that this RD will work as good as the Record one, for a fraction of the price, with the Ultrashift Record QS Levers ?

    https://www.bike-components.de/de/Ca...0-fach-p25890/

    https://www.bike-components.de/de/Ca...-10-fach-p401/

    I still want the fancy Record, despite the price difference...but I hesitate.I remember various sources saying that Record / Chorus are interchangeable, so are Veloce / Centaur...but Veloce RD with Record shifters ?

  9. #34
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    We are saying that the new Veloce RD might actually work better than the old Record RD with a large cassette.

    Mid cage give you no more sprocket clearance, it's a common misunderstanding. It wraps more chain. But unless you go to a triple you don't need it.

    And it's not "ultrashift" if you are intent on buying an older shifter. "Ergopower"
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  10. #35
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    Agree with BJ

    * I think any 10s RD will work as well as any other, the current generation ("2015") were specifically designed for big cassettes (like you want) and for modern frames, so are probably "better" for cases like yours

    * I think all this stuff is mechanically identical as far as shifting goes. I think the only differences between 10s Veloce and 10s Record will be more carbon bling, less weight and maybe some friction reducing like pulleys on bearings. But the basic idea of pulling a cable and moving the pulleys won't be any different. I bet you could sneak up to a 10s Record bike, swap the RD for 10s Veloce while the rider wasn't looking, and he wouldn't notice.

    * A short cage will be fine if you are sticking with 36/46 up front. If you are planning to move to 34/50 or triple in the future you will probably need a mid cage.

    (small disagreement with BJ - the 2015 short cage has capacity 32t so it won't handle 34/50 chainrings plus 12-30 cassette - if you are planning that combo in the future you should get a mid cage. It's no more money and only a few grams heavier)

    I have not tried the 12-30 cassette, I find the 13-29 shifts very well, is really cheap, and gives a good low granny gear. YMMV.

    I would do what I've been recommending all along. You are doing something slightly experimental, so keep it cheap...

    Wait for the Ribble Campagnolo sale, usually in January. Buy
    * Campag 10s shifters of your choice
    * Campag 10s chain, I think Campag original ones work best, but others disagree
    * Campag 10s 13-29 cassette
    * KMC missing chain link, make sure you get the Campagnolo specific ones
    * 2015 Campag Veloce RD, short cage or mid cage depending on your future plans for compact chainrings

    Total cost -> about what you were thinking of paying for that Record 2010 mid cage RD

    Install carefully, in particularly get the chain length right and the H-screw setting.

    I am pretty sure this will work fantastically, so well you will be raving about it like BJ and will never think about 11s again. But of course I can't guarantee it, and you should be careful for the first few rides in case it skips or fails to shift etc.

    Then after 1000 miles or so think about buying spares if you need them, or if you want wider gears, get the 12-30 cassette.

    If you have a real problem, come on here, describe it, and we'll see what we can do to help.

    I would start with a fairly cheap move to 10s and ride the &^%$* off it first to see if it does what you want.

  11. #36
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    If it works better, and at that price, it must be a no - brainer.The shifters I am buying are these : https://www.bike-components.de/en/Ca...griffe-p14703/

    But would the Veloce RD allow multiple upshifts and downshifts ? I did not quite inderstand what do you mean by older shifter.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    Everybody in this forum is so helpful...that is worth is own weight in gold.Especially, compared to the greedy, lying LBS ! Do you mean that this RD will work as good as the Record one, for a fraction of the price, with the Ultrashift Record QS Levers ?

    https://www.bike-components.de/de/Ca...0-fach-p25890/

    https://www.bike-components.de/de/Ca...-10-fach-p401/

    I still want the fancy Record, despite the price difference...but I hesitate.I remember various sources saying that Record / Chorus are interchangeable, so are Veloce / Centaur...but Veloce RD with Record shifters ?
    Yes, exactly

    Why not start cheap, you can always upgrade later?

    I don't think the LBS is lying, they are just sticking to Campag's "rules" which (approximately) say "don't mix pre-2011 and post-2011". So they are trying to sell you a pre-2011 RD to go with your pre-2011 levers. We have all done the mixing so we know it works well.

  13. #38
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    By lying, I mean all 3 LBS are a bloody bunch of criminals here.They will lie and insist that the sun is green ( and you must believe them ), only to sell you for a profit.One LBS insisted my De Rosa with Campagnolo Chorus was a piece of crap, and wanted me to get rid of it, and...buy a no-name cheap chinese frame with shimaNO ( hell NO ).Other LBS wanted me to buy a hybrid bike with shimaNO Claris 8 speed and insisted I am stupid ( yes, they said that ) and insisted that this new Claris is so fantastic that it shifts...well better and more precise than Campagnolo Record.Third LBS is the same, and they even go further.I have showed them dozens of printed materials proving that Campag is superior, and they said do not believe anyone else but them...a very small LBS ( OMGWTFBBQ ).I remember once a car almost hit me in the city intersection.At that particular moment, I was riding shimaNO Ultegra...and while shifting, the brake lever was unusable...and I hit the brakes too late.This is something will never happen with Campagnolo, as it is not dual, but even triple control, you have a separate lever for brakes, upshift, and downshift.
    Unfortunately, Ribble is out of the question.Their prices are higher than the German website bike-components.de and their customer support is not great, and they refuse to ship to smaller countries like Bulgaria, although a member of the European Union.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    If it works better, and at that price, it must be a no - brainer.The shifters I am buying are these : https://www.bike-components.de/en/Ca...griffe-p14703/

    But would the Veloce RD allow multiple upshifts and downshifts ? I did not quite inderstand what do you mean by older shifter.
    By "older shifter" we are referring to the previous generation - pre 2009 design. Which is like the Record shifter you linked to. Chorus is identical internally and better value.

    Multiple shifts happen at the shifter - nothing to do with the RD which is just a dumb parallelogram and springs. So yes again, a current Veloce RD will work fine with that.

    Cheap is correct on the chain wrap issue. A 12-30 combined with 50/34 gives a total 34T wrap needed for full operation. It's easy to make it work safely though with a short cage RD by sizing the chain for the big-big combo. The chain will lose tension if you try to use the 34-12, but nothing will break and you shouldn't be cross-chaining like that anyway.

    Or just buy a medium cage Veloce RD.
    Last edited by bikerjulio; 11-28-2015 at 04:43 AM.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    But would the Veloce RD allow multiple upshifts and downshifts ? I did not quite inderstand what do you mean by older shifter.
    The multiple up & down shifts are completely inside the lever, nothing to do with the RD at all.

    I am not sure whether your QS levers support multiple up and down shifts, I am not familiar with them. But if your levers do multiple up & down, the RD will be fine.

    The RD is not complicated. The cable pulls (e.g.) 2 mm, the RD moves the pulleys (e.g.) 3 mm, that's called the actuation ratio. The lever decides how many mm of cable gets pulled in or let out. If you have a multiple shift lever, you can go click-click-click on the thumb button and let out (e.g.) 6 mm of cable, the RD moves by (e.g.) 9 mm.

    The actuation ratio is usually different between manufacturers, and sometimes different between generations (e.g. 10s and 11s).

    Each manufacturer has a different actuation ratio (SRAM, Campag, Shimano). That's the main reason why mixing stuff from different manufacturers is so difficult.

    Some systems from the same manufacturer have different actuation ratios (e.g. for Campag:- 2015 Record/Chorus 11s is different to pre-2015 11s. And I think pre-2001 9s was different to 10s, but I am not an expert)

    But AFAIK all the 10s Campag stuff had the same actuation ratio from its introduction (2001?) up to today, so any Campag 10s RD should work with any Campag 10s lever.

    But of course there are other factors as we have discussed, like the largest cog the RD will handle. The newer design RD handles bigger cogs better than the older design.

    On my Campag bikes I started with 2001 (?) levers and a 2001 (?) RD. Then 2010 levers and a 2001 RD. Now 2010 levers and a 2015 RD. They all shift exactly the same. So I am pretty confident of this.

  16. #41
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    Bringing the thread back, hoping it would be useful for other people...as Campagnolo marketing people behave like a bunch of criminal, confusing people to believe that pull ratio and other stuff has changed...I am placing my order in a few weeks.
    So, I have 10 speed carbon compact crank from PZ RACING with 110 BCD, a 34-46, but I even consider a 33t chainring - I love hight cadence and bail-out gears.Using a 10 speed Campagnolo Chorus CT FD, I have two of them.
    I decided to stretch the budget further, but stay with 10 speed, due to perfectly cheap cassettes and chains.For now, the best bang for the € for a European guy like me seems to be found in German online shops.I have chosen the bundle of a Veloce 13-29 and a Veloce chain, I will even buy two :

    https://www.bike-components.de/en/Ca...issset-p49424/"

    Now I have to choose only a RD, and shifters.Reading that a 10s RD works with 11s setup, I am even more tempted to upgrade.Is it worthy to get 11 speed Chorus shifters with 11 speed Athena ör Potenza RD ?

    https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...e_asc&limit=48

  17. #42
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    I think Campagnolo has confused you again! I understand that the pull ratio changed between Athena and Potenza, so Athena will work with pre-2015 (2016?) Chorus levers and Potenza may (?) work with post 2015 (2016?).

    Basically my understanding is the new gruppos with the four arm chainset and "Embrace" RD are not compatible with the old style five arm spider and "conventional" RD.

    I have not heard of anyone who has confirmed this in practice, it is just what I/we have been told by Campagnolo.

    I have not heard any confirmation about whether Potenza RD is compatible with Chorus shifters. My guess would be probably, but it could be an expensive experiment by you. If you asked that specific question on these forums I expect someone knows.

    I keep looking at Potenza or Chorus but they seem horribly expensive to me - 2x or 3x the price of Veloce. I'm sure they are good, but Veloce is really good & I don't need 1 extra gear that badly.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheapSkate View Post
    I think Campagnolo has confused you again! I understand that the pull ratio changed between Athena and Potenza, so Athena will work with pre-2015 (2016?) Chorus levers and Potenza may (?) work with post 2015 (2016?).

    Basically my understanding is the new gruppos with the four arm chainset and "Embrace" RD are not compatible with the old style five arm spider and "conventional" RD.

    I have not heard of anyone who has confirmed this in practice, it is just what I/we have been told by Campagnolo.

    I have not heard any confirmation about whether Potenza RD is compatible with Chorus shifters. My guess would be probably, but it could be an expensive experiment by you. If you asked that specific question on these forums I expect someone knows.

    I keep looking at Potenza or Chorus but they seem horribly expensive to me - 2x or 3x the price of Veloce. I'm sure they are good, but Veloce is really good & I don't need 1 extra gear that badly.
    Chorus is a very different group from Veloce. It isn't just about one gear and 10-11 speed. It is about single versus multiple shifts. Also the shifts are quicker and cleaner. Also none of that powertorque crank idiocy that requires a crank puller as expensive as the crank itself to service the crank.

    Any top-tier bicycle transmission is going to be very different from a bottom-tier. Both in features and in price. Ultegra is much nicer than Sora. Although Campag does make it harder than it should with goofy cross-compatibility exclusions year to year.

  19. #44
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    Thanks, gentlemen...you made it easier for me.So, low-tier groups are out for me, and I will buy either Chorus or Record, either 10 or 11 speed, depending on price and availability.Now, if I buy 11s Chorus shifters...they are slightly cheaper than 10s Record.Can 11s Chorus shifters work on a 10 speed drivetrain ? All I need to choose now is shifters and RD, as I have everything else - 13-29 Veloce cassette, a Chorus CT FD, and a few 10 speed chains, and my PZ Racing carbon compact crank, 34 - 46.Chorus 11s shifters are 240 EUR, and 10s Record ones are 260 EUR.
    I would not buy Veloce or Centaur.I am sorry, but they are quite horrible - two of my friends have the new versions on their bikes.Although good bang for the buck, I prefer Chorus or Record.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    Thanks, gentlemen...you made it easier for me.So, low-tier groups are out for me, and I will buy either Chorus or Record, either 10 or 11 speed, depending on price and availability.Now, if I buy 11s Chorus shifters...they are slightly cheaper than 10s Record.Can 11s Chorus shifters work on a 10 speed drivetrain ? All I need to choose now is shifters and RD, as I have everything else - 13-29 Veloce cassette, a Chorus CT FD, and a few 10 speed chains, and my PZ Racing carbon compact crank, 34 - 46.Chorus 11s shifters are 240 EUR, and 10s Record ones are 260 EUR.
    I would not buy Veloce or Centaur.I am sorry, but they are quite horrible - two of my friends have the new versions on their bikes.Although good bang for the buck, I prefer Chorus or Record.
    Since you have a 10-speed cassette, it might be a good idea to buy 10-speed shifters as well.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  21. #46
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    I have not placed my order yet...I have a FD, Chorus 10s, and a 10s compact 34-46.The rest of the stuff is 9 speed, old and problematic - I am getting rid of it.
    So, I have to choose first 10, or 11 speed, and only then buy cassette and chain.I have a few 10 speed chains, that can easily go to my friends` bikes.Looking over the forums...somehow I could not figure out how many miles can I get out of 10 or 11 speed cassette, riding in the dry only ( no winter, mud, or rain riding - I have a singlespeed bike for that ).Nor could I find how many miles can I get from a Campagnolo 10 / 11 speed chains...can you help me decide, please ?

  22. #47
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    Well, 11-speed has been around for a long time now and to date I don't recall seeing anyone suggest that it wears faster than 10.

    When it comes to shifters, you are resistant to Veloce as the 10-speed option although the 2015 version was a big improvement.

    I believe that the Ultrashift shifter design was a big improvement, both in ergonomics and durability over the old G-spring shifters, therefore the logical conclusion is 11-speed Chorus. To work with your FD you will need a 2014 version as 2015 are said to be only compatible with matching derailleurs. Buy new stock, not used, is my suggestion as you don't want to end up with an early production 2009 version.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  23. #48
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    Thanks, Mr. Julio.Since I have a spare 10s Chorus compact FD, I guess it would be better to buy 10s Record QS shifters...The shop gave me 3% discount, so they are down to 252 EUR :

    https://www.bike-components.de/en/Ca...griffe-p14703/

    Then I will buy a 10s Veloce cassette 13-29 and a 10s chain combo...But...the big question is...which derailleur, be it 10 or 11 speed ? The shop seems to offer plenty of options :

    https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...e_asc&limit=24

  24. #49
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    The obvious choice there is Veloce. The Potenza/Chorus/Record/SR options are all the new style and officially not compatible with your old shifters.

    But for the lettering the Veloce and Athena are identical.
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  25. #50
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    Thanks, it seems that for the 13-29 cassette, my only 10s choices are the Veloce, and the Record 10s.I have heard that carbon RD plates wear...and although it would be very nice to be a snob with a carbon Record RD...eventually, the letters would come off.Would the Record RD offer any improvement in shifting over the Veloce one ? One of the reviewers says that this is a 2010 Record Titanium Model :

    https://www.bike-components.de/en/Ca...-10-fach-p401/

    But I got no clue from which year are the shifters...

    https://www.bike-components.de/en/Ca...griffe-p14703/

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