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  1. #26
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    I wonder if these methods may overlook the importance of temperature/cooling? After thinking about doing intervals at a HR of165---steep climbing verses flats--- I think that the perception of suffering is likely more apparent on the steep climbing intervals because of the inability to shed heat as effectively--especially apparent on hot days. Cooling wind blowing at 24 MPH across your body may produce different results than wind at 5 mph?

    How Is the ability to produce power (in watts) for sustained efforts affected by temperature? If it is affected, shouldn't it be a consideration in evaluating a training effort?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_Simmons/RST
    The Conconi test is bunkum. There are no repeatable results to show such a deflection point exists, nor can any firm conclusions be drawn from it. IOW one cannot use this test with any reliability assess LT nor a HR value related to it.

    The best quote I have seen on this is:

    "I think that the consensus is that a Conconi test is a very useful tool for prediciting how well one will perform in a Conconi test."

    -Rob Coapman
    Interesting...so it's basically blood test or don't bother?
    "I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark." -S. Hawking

  3. #28
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    Here's two examples of aerobic power workouts showing power and HR:

    2x20:


    7x4:

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggybx
    How long does it usually take to see a jump in your LT?
    Depends. I'm assuming you mean a jump in your power at LT. How new are you, what is your current power "at LT," how much training have you done and can you do, what kind of workouts, etc? Your question is similar to asking, "how long until I lose weight while riding." Well, it depends on your daily dose of riding and other factors.

    Pros are lucky to see a 1-2% increase per year. Someone starting out fresh can increase 20% or more in one year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggybx
    How long should I take to get into my HR zone.ease into it or ASAP?
    Which HR zone? You need to warmup before any intense effort. After that, it depends what zone you are aiming for. Some neuromuscular and anaerobic efforts will never net the HR you are aiming for because of the delayed response. Sometimes you are suppose to ease into an effort and hit your target HR for a time trial within, say, 5 minutes.

    If we are assuming your 2x20's, I would say probably within 2 minutes at a steady ramped increase. If you hit it too quick, there's a good chance you went over.

    This is why coaches and riders are understanding the importance of power meters. There is less of a need to rely on a less accurate HR monitor.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonnitro
    Depends. I'm assuming you mean a jump in your power at LT. How new are you, what is your current power "at LT," how much training have you done and can you do, what kind of workouts, etc? Your question is similar to asking, "how long until I lose weight while riding." Well, it depends on your daily dose of riding and other factors.

    Pros are lucky to see a 1-2% increase per year. Someone starting out fresh can increase 20% or more in one year.



    Which HR zone? You need to warmup before any intense effort. After that, it depends what zone you are aiming for. Some neuromuscular and anaerobic efforts will never net the HR you are aiming for because of the delayed response. Sometimes you are suppose to ease into an effort and hit your target HR for a time trial within, say, 5 minutes.

    If we are assuming your 2x20's, I would say probably within 2 minutes at a steady ramped increase. If you hit it too quick, there's a good chance you went over.

    This is why coaches and riders are understanding the importance of power meters. There is less of a need to rely on a less accurate HR monitor.
    Thanks for the response Nitro.
    I've been training strictly for a year now.I'm 40 years old.My LT is around 165.
    I do 2 intense days during the week,intervals 2x20 or 3x10 etc for about an 1hr 1/2 ,before work.Always warm up first for 20 min,then cool down after
    Other 2 days I'll spin ez for 1 hr.
    On the weekends ,one day long endurance ride 3 or 4 hours.Endurance pace.
    Next day fast tempo 2 hr ride.
    I'm just a recreational ride looking to get in better shape.
    Unfortunately I don't have a power monitor.In the future I would like to get one.
    What I meant to say was, when will I be able to hold a higher heart rate over a longer period.
    Like when time trialing,so I can set a faster time.
    Thanks again

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftSolo
    I wonder if these methods may overlook the importance of temperature/cooling? After thinking about doing intervals at a HR of165---steep climbing verses flats--- I think that the perception of suffering is likely more apparent on the steep climbing intervals because of the inability to shed heat as effectively--especially apparent on hot days. Cooling wind blowing at 24 MPH across your body may produce different results than wind at 5 mph?

    How Is the ability to produce power (in watts) for sustained efforts affected by temperature? If it is affected, shouldn't it be a consideration in evaluating a training effort?
    HR does. Alex posted 2 pics of a training workout and you can see the variation in HR at, presumably, the same power output. It's easier to spot in the first one. Like most intervals, the later ones will hurt more than the first ones.

    Yes, your ability to produce power (in any measurement) is reduced in hot conditions. More blood flows to the skin to cool your body down which means less for your muscles. Among other reasons, dehydration increases the viscosity of blood, effectively slowing its flow while causing more strain on the heart. I think I read a paper once that mentioned 60 degrees (F) was the best weather to perform endurance exercise, as measured in marathon runners. That's pretty friggen cold; about as cold as I can go w/o wearing arm/leg warmers for the whole ride.

    Temperature has a lot to do with your HR -- moreso than power. But, to get the proper training benefit, you have to do the work. This means suffering more sometimes. But, a kilojoule is a kilojoule, no matter the temperature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggybx
    Thanks for the response Nitro.
    I've been training strictly for a year now.I'm 40 years old.My LT is around 165.
    I do 2 intense days during the week,intervals 2x20 or 3x10 etc for about an 1hr 1/2 ,before work.Always warm up first for 20 min,then cool down after
    Other 2 days I'll spin ez for 1 hr.
    On the weekends ,one day long endurance ride 3 or 4 hours.Endurance pace.
    Next day fast tempo 2 hr ride.
    I'm just a recreational ride looking to get in better shape.
    Unfortunately I don't have a power monitor.In the future I would like to get one.
    What I meant to say was, when will I be able to hold a higher heart rate over a longer period.
    Like when time trialing,so I can set a faster time.
    Thanks again
    You can improve that a lot. I would start by skipping the one of the 2x20/3x10 workouts and make it just an "sweet spot" session for as long as time will allow. This would be ~at your uphill TT HR, give or take a few beats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bocephus Jones II
    Interesting...so it's basically blood test or don't bother?
    It's basically the most accurate. We would always do a graded exercise test and draw blood every 2 min, graph it, and find your zones for power and HR from it. Sort of a waste of time to do otherwise, especially when the equipment is available.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bocephus Jones II
    Interesting...so it's basically blood test or don't bother?
    Or save the money from the tests and get a power meter so you can test yourself on your bike any time you ride.

    If you use a power meter, testing for blood lactate changes is essentially a redundant activity.

  8. #33
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    SwiftSolo: Good questions. I am about your age, trying to stay very fit with time trials, and have many of the same questions. I did get a power meter, and strongly suggest you do the same. You are working at a high enough level to really benefit your efforts--pretty impressive heart rates for age 64.

    Alex Simmons: As usual, many good observations. Question about training zones: I see no "tempo" in your list. In most "zone" listings I have seen something like 1-Active Recovery; 2- Endurance Recovery; 3-Tempo; 4-
    Threshold; etc, etc. Where would Tempo fall into your zones?
    Thank you.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhill
    SwiftSolo: Good questions. I am about your age, trying to stay very fit with time trials, and have many of the same questions. I did get a power meter, and strongly suggest you do the same. You are working at a high enough level to really benefit your efforts--pretty impressive heart rates for age 64.

    Alex Simmons: As usual, many good observations. Question about training zones: I see no "tempo" in your list. In most "zone" listings I have seen something like 1-Active Recovery; 2- Endurance Recovery; 3-Tempo; 4-
    Threshold; etc, etc. Where would Tempo fall into your zones?
    Thank you.
    Well I was generalising about lots of various schema and lumped everything between recovery and near threshold work as aerobic endurance.

    Tempo would be the upper end of aerobic endurance. In that generalised schema, aerobic endurance is a fairly broad range but typically covering a range of intensities you could maximally sustain from ~ 2 - 6 hrs.

    Personally I use more zones which are based on using Maximal Aerobic Power as the anchor point. Indeed aerobic endurance is split into three levels and the threshold work is split into two levels. However, I should also note that such zones actually overlap to some degree.

    How such zones or levels are defined is a balance between practicality (not too many to make it unweildy) and ensuring there is sufficient distinction between the primary physiological adaptations that occur when training at that level.

    You can read about the levels I use in coaching here:

    http://www.cyclecoach.com/index.php?...=70&Itemid=112

    In fact there is a nice graphic there I created a while back which compares the RST training zones based on MAP with the Coggan training levels based on FTP as well as showing the physiological adaptations. It also shows the "sweet spot".


    As far as age goes, well my oldest client is 65. He recently won the State TT championship for his category. He has been racing for 2 years. Although to be fair, he has been riding for a long time just never put a number on his back.

  10. #35
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    Alex great read as always intelligent answers

    I have a question do you have a good estimate(files) about TSS for a xc mtb race, 50 or so k by a u23 top 5. I know thats a loaded question , I have a PT on the road bike. I read that the IF is some where araound 1.5.

    My son is usually pretty hammered after an xc race, but feel ok after a 100k road race(hilly). So I'm guessing that the TSS is way up there.
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  11. #36

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    Well how can I know if my lactate is so high in my blood ?
    Feeling so exhausted ? No power to pedalling ?

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by moab63
    I have a question do you have a good estimate(files) about TSS for a xc mtb race, 50 or so k by a u23 top 5. I know thats a loaded question , I have a PT on the road bike. I read that the IF is some where araound 1.5.

    My son is usually pretty hammered after an xc race, but feel ok after a 100k road race(hilly). So I'm guessing that the TSS is way up there.
    I don't coach XC riders and have no such files, however it would be unusual for an aerobic endurance event of more than 45-minutes to have an IF > 1.05.

    If someone is quoting an IF of 1.5, then their FTP is incorrectly set far too low.

    Remember, an IF = 1 = riding at the equivalent stress of riding at FTP (which you can sustain for about an hour). If the race is much longer than an hour, then by definition IF < 1. How much less depends.

    TSS = IF^2 x hours x 100


    All I can think of is that you are confusing Variability Index* with Intensity Factor. In a XC MTB race, I can certainly believe a high VI approaching 1.5.

    * ratio of Normalised Power to Average Power, which by definition must be >= 1

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_Simmons/RST
    I don't coach XC riders and have no such files, however it would be unusual for an aerobic endurance event of more than 45-minutes to have an IF > 1.05.

    If someone is quoting an IF of 1.5, then their FTP is incorrectly set far too low.

    Remember, an IF = 1 = riding at the equivalent stress of riding at FTP (which you can sustain for about an hour). If the race is much longer than an hour, then by definition IF < 1. How much less depends.

    TSS = IF^2 x hours x 100


    All I can think of is that you are confusing Variability Index* with Intensity Factor. In a XC MTB race, I can certainly believe a high VI approaching 1.5.

    * ratio of Normalised Power to Average Power, which by definition must be >= 1
    Right.

    Also, I'm sure this has something to do with feeling more fatigued (under "Weight bearing is best"): http://www.velonews.com/article/13527

  14. #39
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    Thanks for the reply

    my son is a mtb racer first road second. He also lifts weights and the nutrition is also monitored. I understand the IF is 100 or 1 as the max but I just don't have any number from xc to see.

    We'll keep working at it.
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    FWIW the correct definitions (very much along the lines of Alex's comments) are:

    Lactate (originally anaerobic) threshold - The intensity/power output/oxygen uptake at which blood lactate concentrations begin to rise above resting levels. This intensity will be sustainable for several hours.

    Onset of blood lactate accumulation (OBLA)/Maximal lactate steady-state (MLSS)/Critical Power (the proper CP not the Friel version) - The intensity/power output/oxygen uptake above which blood lactate levels no longer reach a steady-value despite the intensity being held constant. This isn't the correct definition of critical power but it is the same intensity as OBLA/MLSS. The is what most 'coaching' literature refers to as LT.

    FTP isn't a physiological threshold it's just the power you can sustain for an hour - that doesn't mean it isn't useful. By physiological threshold I mean that the physiological responses below LT, between LT and OBLA and above OBLA all differ from each other but are broadly similar in each 'zone'.

    Alex is also right your best investment probably isn't physiological testing (that's me speaking as an exercise physiologist) it's a power meter.

    Andy.

  16. #41
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    Alex are you using the science of winning book

    by Jan Olbrecht, some of your descriptions sound familiar. Also do you du lactate testing or just power.

    thanks
    All I've ever asked of my Marines is for them to obey my orders as they would the word of God.

    Do you know what Nemesis means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent,

    <a href="mailto:[email protected]">USAC coach</a>

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by moab63
    by Jan Olbrecht, some of your descriptions sound familiar. Also do you du lactate testing or just power.

    thanks
    No. Indeed I'm not familiar with that book.
    I don't test for BL, just use power. When using power meters, lactate tests essentially become redundant from a practical coaching perspective.
    Last edited by Alex_Simmons/RST; 10-15-2008 at 02:27 PM.

  18. #43
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    Oh cool is a swimming book, is all

    about lactate based training. Keep up the good work.
    All I've ever asked of my Marines is for them to obey my orders as they would the word of God.

    Do you know what Nemesis means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent,

    <a href="mailto:[email protected]">USAC coach</a>

  19. #44
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    I really want to thank you coachs for your help. You guys and Freil's books have made my past two months of riding magical. My six day ride was over the top. I've never felt so good.

    I still failed to beat my personal bests on the two 1 hour climbs on Mt Rainier (one of my goals for this season).

    I'll have a power meter soon and will do some indoor training this winter for the first time to avoid the short day weight gain that has always been a problem with me (skiing just doesn't keep the weight off anymore). I'm already looking forward to next season and will be looking to hire a coach to ensure those PBs fall.

    Thanks again.

  20. #45
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    That's awesome

  21. #46

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    What kind of training for me to make my lactate treshold better ?

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