Core Muscle Training - Page 3
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  1. #51
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    +gazillion

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr clean
    I guess we can agree to disagree here. You can't build up you hip flexors to overpower your back by sitting in a chair, but you can by cycling. Cycling does have physical benefits, but it does create muscle imbalances and sometimes that will create injury if you don't work the opposing muscle groups.

    I don't think bike fit has anything to do with riders upper bodies moving all over the bike either. That movement is your body trying to counteract the torque being put into your torso. You can see it in the pro ranks when a rider in a long breakaway tires.

    Well spoken!

    Alex, the body as a whole works together. You know as well as anyone with your rehab. You use tremendous amount of core strength when doing any cycling, running, throwing, etc. Core is everything from your nipples to your knees. Hips are our main power generators. If you don't have a strong platform from which to cycle you won't generate as much power. Doing more cycling will make your core stronger but on ly to a certain point. The body is a master at compensating and creating imbalances, which cause injury and weakness. Training the core helps improve imbalances and strengthen weaker muscles and improve efficiency of the body.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raven1911
    You use tremendous amount of core strength when doing any cycling,
    Evidence or just guessing? I would suggest we don't need all that much core strength to ride a bike. People often forget how low the forces are when cycling.

    And even if one did improve the strength of their core musculature, there is no correlation between strength and endurance of muscles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raven1911
    Doing more cycling will make your core stronger but on ly to a certain point.
    Yep, to the point that you need. You are right, the body is remarkable and it will adapt as necessary to the strains and stresses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raven1911
    Training the core helps improve imbalances and strengthen weaker muscles and improve efficiency of the body.
    There is no evidence that training your core will improve your efficiency. There is very little evidence that any training will impact cycling efficiency in trained cyclists.

    Again, I have no issue with people doing these sorts of exercises for all sorts of good reasons (heck I've done plenty of yoga myself) but claims that they will make you more powerful/efficient on a bike just don't stack up.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_Simmons/RST
    Evidence or just guessing? I would suggest we don't need all that much core strength to ride a bike. People often forget how low the forces are when cycling.

    And even if one did improve the strength of their core musculature, there is no correlation between strength and endurance of muscles.

    Yep, to the point that you need. You are right, the body is remarkable and it will adapt as necessary to the strains and stresses.

    There is no evidence that training your core will improve your efficiency. There is very little evidence that any training will impact cycling efficiency in trained cyclists.

    Again, I have no issue with people doing these sorts of exercises for all sorts of good reasons (heck I've done plenty of yoga myself) but claims that they will make you more powerful/efficient on a bike just don't stack up.
    Listening to you is one reason I wouldn't pay $$ for a coach.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerlinAma
    Listening to you is one reason I wouldn't pay $$ for a coach.
    Amen to that.

    It is tiresome.

    All over every cycling forum you find, always the same.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windermere
    Amen to that.

    It is tiresome.

    All over every cycling forum you find, always the same.
    Yep, I am consistently evidenced based, not belief based. I can't help it if you are bored by the evidence (or lack of).

    I find it incredibly tiresome that people seem to think that their unsupported beliefs and anecdotes are evidence that something is right.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_Simmons/RST
    Yep, I am consistently evidenced based, not belief based. I can't help it if you are bored by the evidence (or lack of).

    I find it incredibly tiresome that people seem to think that their unsupported beliefs and anecdotes are evidence that something is right.
    On the other hand, some if us have ridden long enough to know exactly what improves our riding.
    Do I need a double blind scientific study to tell me that eating a quart of ice cream a day will make me gain weight? I don't think so. I learned that from experience.
    So never mind. I'll find my own way.

  8. #58
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    Agree with Andrea138

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrea138
    I'd beg to differ- I say at age 44, if he's not been on a consistent weight training program, that he's experienced a degree of age-related muscle atrophy that could easily be reversible though a well-designed resistance training program.
    Cycling alone may help cardio and some strength related moves, isolation of certain muscles can make them stronger. A statement like "Just riding your bike is all u need" is pretty lame advice!

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerlinAma
    On the other hand, some if us have ridden long enough to know exactly what improves our riding.
    Do I need a double blind scientific study to tell me that eating a quart of ice cream a day will make me gain weight? I don't think so. I learned that from experience.
    So never mind. I'll find my own way.
    Except that there is evidence to show that consuming more calories than one metabolises results in weight gain, so your personal experience is backed by the available evidence. The fact that you don't "need" the evidence to demonstrate this doesn't discount the validity of the evidence.

    Yet despite the evidence not supporting a range of cycling training myths, they still persist and people still believe them.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Arthur
    Cycling alone may help cardio and some strength related moves, isolation of certain muscles can make them stronger. A statement like "Just riding your bike is all u need" is pretty lame advice!
    If you want to become more aerobically powerful on a bike, then riding a bike is the most effective means by which one does this. But one has to train well on a bike to achieve this (as well as eat and recover well). I am not talking JRA.

    However, and this seems to be glossed over by many, if you want to do other exercise by all means there is nothing wrong with that and it can be good for lots of things. It's just not what's going to make you more aerobically powerful on a bicycle, that's my point.

    I would never tell anyone to not do core work, because there might be many good reasons for them to do so. However if they ask "will core work help me produce more sustainable aerobic power?", then I'm afraid the answer is "it's unlikely and unsupported by the evidence".

  11. #61
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    Indirect benefits at best

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_Simmons/RST
    If you want to become more aerobically powerful on a bike, then riding a bike is the most effective means by which one does this. But one has to train well on a bike to achieve this (as well as eat and recover well). I am not talking JRA.

    However, and this seems to be glossed over by many, if you want to do other exercise by all means there is nothing wrong with that and it can be good for lots of things. It's just not what's going to make you more aerobically powerful on a bicycle, that's my point.

    I would never tell anyone to not do core work, because there might be many good reasons for them to do so. However if they ask "will core work help me produce more sustainable aerobic power?", then I'm afraid the answer is "it's unlikely and unsupported by the evidence".
    Indeed, all the core/gym work I have done has not made me a lick faster on the bike- but it has allowed me to remain injury free to be able to do the work on the bike that will make me fast. Not to mention shovel snow today for another 3 hours without crippling myself. . .

    Dr. Cox: Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard fillings. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windermere
    Amen to that.

    It is tiresome.

    All over every cycling forum you find, always the same.

    Yup. Like a broken freaking record.

  13. #63
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    Here is the reason core work in the gym will make you a faster cyclist...

    - Riding and more riding makes you faster (I think we've established this)
    - Core strength allows you to ride for longer periods more comfort.
    - Fatigue can happen due to weak core muscles long before you've properly worked your legs.
    - Core strength is most efficiently gained in a gym not on a bike.

    In conclusion keep your core strong off the bike thereby enabling more effective workouts on the bike.

    It's not that big of a leap.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frith
    Here is the reason core work in the gym will make you a faster cyclist...

    - Riding and more riding makes you faster (I think we've established this)
    - Core strength allows you to ride for longer periods more comfort.
    - Fatigue can happen due to weak core muscles long before you've properly worked your legs.
    - Core strength is most efficiently gained in a gym not on a bike.

    In conclusion keep your core strong off the bike thereby enabling more effective workouts on the bike.

    It's not that big of a leap.
    Except that strength and endurance of musculature are not related.

    If you want to work on core muscular endurance and fatigue resistance as opposed to core strength, then do exercises that focus on the endurance and fatigue resistance of your core.

    The best core musculature workouts for bike riding are:
    - sprints from slow and fast speeds
    - seated sprints from low speed
    - standing starts
    - anaerobic/lactate tolerance efforts
    - hillclimbing
    - hard efforts at/near/above threshold
    - longer rides of the sweet spot variety with variable effort
    - racing

  15. #65
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    This is a follow up. I did end up getting the Carmicheal DVD. As I have never done anything like it, I found it hard (wife thought it was wimpy). Anyway, I really like it and it makes sense to me. Just got back from Vail and convinced it helped me ski a little harder as well. Lots of muscles I have never worked on. May not make me trully faster on a bike but was a good thing for me to do.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerlinAma
    On the other hand, some if us have ridden long enough to know exactly what improves our riding.
    Do I need a double blind scientific study to tell me that eating a quart of ice cream a day will make me gain weight? I don't think so. I learned that from experience.
    So never mind. I'll find my own way.
    Hooray x 2. After 33 years of cycling there is nothing anyone can say to me to dissuade me from doing a regular routine of not only core strengthening exercises, but a full body routine.....year around. It has allowed me to take on more mileage, much tougher interval sessions as well as volume....all without injury. All my speedwork up until the mid 90's was limited by when my injuries would surface. In 2003 I was so bogged with travel that I missed much of my winter routine, pretty much all of it. I spent most of 2004 with one injury after another.

    Perhaps my best elixir is dropping the younger punks who insist 'you will gain too much weight....or....it will cut into your mileage.....or.....you are wasting your time'. Had that very experience Friday with a particular punk who doesn't like getting dropped by guys 2x his age on a bike about 1/5 the cost in my no name Nashbar jersey;) Then again I was off the back of the big boys, but if you are gonna ridicule an old man for working out you had better be sure you can whip him first!
    Last edited by merlinluvr; 02-28-2010 at 04:41 PM.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_Simmons/RST
    That's really cool you went well and persisted with work to improve. Doing work to overcoming specific issues makes sense when returning from injury.

    But if we are talking anecdotes, then I may as well relate mine.

    In August 2007 I came out of hospital after a 4 month "stay" and minus a leg (trans tibial amputation), then spent another 14 months completely sedentary while I healed and then began to learn to stand and ultimately walk again with a prosthetic, eventually I was able to get on a bike on an indoor trainer. I managed 100W for about 10-minutes.

    My core (along with much of my body) was exceptionally weakened by my lengthy forced sedentary period, much of it confined to bed or seated. I can recall being re-admitted to hospital due to crippling lower back spasms. No fun being unable to move, alone in your home and calling an ambulance to come and get you.

    But I persisted with my bike riding.

    On 20 August this year I set an all time PB* in a Maximal Aerobic Power test (cycling ramp test to exhaustion) and in October I completed Levi's 103 mile Granfondo in California with ~ 10,000 feet of climbing up some pretty nasty 10% grades. Took me a fraction over 6 hours. I won the Oceania paracycling road race and TT championships in May and took silver in same two events at my country's national championships. Two weeks ago I set my 3rd fastest ever 3km pursuit and made the finals of both the UCI World Masters Points and Scratch race championships. I even picked up prize money from some race wins/places at a track open carnival last weekend.

    That's my experience with how the core adapts to cycling more powerfully. I get plenty of core work necessary to ride a bike powerfully, by riding a bike powerfully. But maybe I should do more eh?


    * and I mean all time, able bodied and since amputation - I have many years of power meter data pre and now post my amputation. And I wasn't an untrained rider before either with multiple podiums at State and National masters level and open race wins.
    That, was a great story, Alex. Amazing.

    Being in the med profession for umpteen years, it always perplexes me the difference between those that just dig in, grit their teeth, and go for it, and those that roll over.

    An amputation is a very, very big deal, as you well know.

    My hats off to you and thanks for the good read this morning with my coffee. I'll think of your accomplishments today while I ride if I start whining and moaning that my riding buddy is going too fast.

  18. #68
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    I am no scientist, just a history teacher. I learn from the past. Winter of '08, I was good about core/weights in the gym, plus running. Had a wonderfull year of '09 pain free riding. This winter, I wasnt so good about the gym. (stupid golf) and month 2 into my riding schedule, Neck and back fatigue etc. I started my core/weights in January, instead of november. and I am felling my delay in training those.

    Performance wise, I am much faster this year, but has to do with the type of cycling training I am doing, but my core is not keeping up with my power. I learn from history to not make the same mistakes.. next year I will not skimp on the core/weights over the winter.

    just my anecdotal story.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by dochoot
    This is a follow up. I did end up getting the Carmicheal DVD. As I have never done anything like it, I found it hard (wife thought it was wimpy). Anyway, I really like it and it makes sense to me. Just got back from Vail and convinced it helped me ski a little harder as well. Lots of muscles I have never worked on. May not make me trully faster on a bike but was a good thing for me to do.

    Fantastic! Good for you. My guess is, you'll get faster on the bike more rapidly because of your improved overall strength. You'll just be able to handle more load, earlier in the season.

    I've been in Crossfit with a trainer four days a week since January as an alternative to riding because of my work schedule, and I don't have a proper winter bike.

    I figured what the heck, it's better than the couch!

    He said, "I will so owe him" when I see what I can do on the bike. He was right.

    Results...phenomenal.

    Of course, it's been absolutely brutal, brutal training, but worth it.

  20. #70
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    Nice photos in that gallery, Desmo.

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