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  1. #26
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    whoa, let me back up. I'm sorry, I never meant to imply you should find a different doctor. By all means, keep the one you have. He/she is looking out for your health and is most likely doing a great job of it.
    I simply meant to say that sometimes us physicians don't get the proper training in regards to healthy hearts and what to look for in a highly conditioned athlete heart. A properly trained coach might be a better pick to answer the questions you have,

  2. #27
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by jmitro View Post
    whoa, let me back up. I'm sorry, I never meant to imply you should find a different doctor. By all means, keep the one you have. He/she is looking out for your health and is most likely doing a great job of it.
    I simply meant to say that sometimes us physicians don't get the proper training in regards to healthy hearts and what to look for in a highly conditioned athlete heart. A properly trained coach might be a better pick to answer the questions you have,
    No, I think I'm the one who should apologize, because I knew you didn't mean that such is what I should do. I just didn't phrase it properly. What I meant to say is that I should also seek the opinion of a physician who specializes in sports medicine. Although a coach is not a bad idea as a source for an answer to my question, I think I'll have more luck with my medical carrier paying for the consultation if I seek the former.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmitro View Post
    whoa, let me back up. I'm sorry, I never meant to imply you should find a different doctor. By all means, keep the one you have. He/she is looking out for your health and is most likely doing a great job of it.
    I simply meant to say that sometimes us physicians don't get the proper training in regards to healthy hearts and what to look for in a highly conditioned athlete heart. A properly trained coach might be a better pick to answer the questions you have,
    As it turns out, my cardiologist had me wear a 5 lead holter for 24 hours two weeks ago. I went out for my usual 12.5 morning ride, only in the afternoon, and I intentionally pushed the edge of the envelope. I figured that if something is wrong, I'd have to push it to make it show. And it worked (I shaved almost 8 minutes off my average time for this ride). My HR ranged from 45 bpm while assleep, to 190 during the ride. Again, no shortness of breath, chest pain, or any adverse reaction to the high HR.

    According to the doctor, the holter shows I have atrial tachycardia. However, my cardiologist's sub-specialty is valve disease/repair and bypass surgery. So, tomorrow I'm going to see a cardiologist that sub-specializes in electrophysiology for a second opinion.

    I was on Concerta 27mg for adult ADHD. My cardiologist instructed me to get off it and to take Toprol 25. My primary told me I can continue Concerta, but to take the Toprol. My cardiologist agreed with that. Well, I'm not taking the Toprol, but I did get off the Concerta. My avg bp is 110/62 and with a RHR avg of 56, I don't want to risk Toprol causing a more pronounced brychardia, or lower my BP more than what is my avg.

    Needless to say, I've only gone out riding one time since the holter and I did a 45 mile ride that time (Friday after Thanksgiving). South Florida is pretty much a tic-tac-toe board and streets run north south/east west for the most part. Winds were out of the east at about 20 mph, so my trek north was not so bad (10.1 miles) before I turned east for my next trek of 12 miles. Heading south and back west was no trouble, but on the 12 mile trek going east, my HR, which I was deliberately trying to keep at an aerobic rate, jumped up to 180 in a couple of occassions. Once it got up that high, I could not get it below 150. Maybe I was excited about the 20+ mph speeds on the trek south and west and simply didn't want to slow down.

    But, my HR did get below 100 about 1 hour after my ride.

    I suppose after tomorrow things should be a bit more clear. In the interim, I'm upgrading my wheels and tires to allow a slightly lower effort to maintain speed. And I'm also now carrying two 325 mg aspirins on every ride.

  4. #29
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    Based on everything I've read, I'd forget about your max. You can't control it, and it doesn't matter. As the other folks have said, figure out your LT and train off of that. One protocol is a 30 Min TT, and take the HR avg for the last 20 minutes. That's LT. Use that number as your anchor for zones, not your maximum. Your LTHR will rise somewhat with training from what I understand, but it then levels off. For me, 158 is SST, 161 is LT, and 170 and up means explosion imminent. YMMV. I'm 42.

    Max means nothing, and might not even be your true maximum. Your "max" cycling probably won't be the same as your max running, for example, and the formulas that are used might assume running. (running tends to be higher).

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJP View Post
    As it turns out, my cardiologist had me wear a 5 lead holter for 24 hours two weeks ago. I went out for my usual 12.5 morning ride, only in the afternoon, and I intentionally pushed the edge of the envelope. I figured that if something is wrong, I'd have to push it to make it show. And it worked (I shaved almost 8 minutes off my average time for this ride). My HR ranged from 45 bpm while assleep, to 190 during the ride. Again, no shortness of breath, chest pain, or any adverse reaction to the high HR.

    According to the doctor, the holter shows I have atrial tachycardia. However, my cardiologist's sub-specialty is valve disease/repair and bypass surgery. So, tomorrow I'm going to see a cardiologist that sub-specializes in electrophysiology for a second opinion.

    I was on Concerta 27mg for adult ADHD. My cardiologist instructed me to get off it and to take Toprol 25. My primary told me I can continue Concerta, but to take the Toprol. My cardiologist agreed with that. Well, I'm not taking the Toprol, but I did get off the Concerta. My avg bp is 110/62 and with a RHR avg of 56, I don't want to risk Toprol causing a more pronounced brychardia, or lower my BP more than what is my avg.

    Needless to say, I've only gone out riding one time since the holter and I did a 45 mile ride that time (Friday after Thanksgiving). South Florida is pretty much a tic-tac-toe board and streets run north south/east west for the most part. Winds were out of the east at about 20 mph, so my trek north was not so bad (10.1 miles) before I turned east for my next trek of 12 miles. Heading south and back west was no trouble, but on the 12 mile trek going east, my HR, which I was deliberately trying to keep at an aerobic rate, jumped up to 180 in a couple of occassions. Once it got up that high, I could not get it below 150. Maybe I was excited about the 20+ mph speeds on the trek south and west and simply didn't want to slow down.

    But, my HR did get below 100 about 1 hour after my ride.

    I suppose after tomorrow things should be a bit more clear. In the interim, I'm upgrading my wheels and tires to allow a slightly lower effort to maintain speed. And I'm also now carrying two 325 mg aspirins on every ride.
    But are you taking the aspirin on every ride?

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrumpole View Post
    Based on everything I've read, I'd forget about your max. You can't control it, and it doesn't matter. As the other folks have said, figure out your LT and train off of that. One protocol is a 30 Min TT, and take the HR avg for the last 20 minutes. That's LT. Use that number as your anchor for zones, not your maximum. Your LTHR will rise somewhat with training from what I understand, but it then levels off. For me, 158 is SST, 161 is LT, and 170 and up means explosion imminent. YMMV. I'm 42.

    Max means nothing, and might not even be your true maximum. Your "max" cycling probably won't be the same as your max running, for example, and the formulas that are used might assume running. (running tends to be higher).
    I looked at this website: Joe Friel - Determining your LTHR
    to get an insight on LTHR. Did a ride yesterday morning, but after re-reading what Joe says, I may have not done things correctly. The way I interpret what he writes, there are two contingencies he doesn't mention, but that presumably he assumes; a warm up period and appropriate time for pre-exercise nutrition to metabolize.

    I ride every other day in the morning. If I was to ride after work, I'd be up past midnight. So, I get up at 4:30 to ride in the morning and I'm usually out of the house by 4:45; ride for an hour and get back home in time to get the family going. I do have a bite to eat before I do my ride, but the interval of time is definitely not enough for it to metabolize. So, I'll do it again this weekend and see what it tells me. Yesterday's ride said my average HR for the 20 mins was 163 and a peak of 175. I simply don't believe yesterday morning's "all out" was a true "all out."
    "If you accept the expectations of others, especially negative ones, then you never will change the outcome." Michael Jordan

    "Pain is nothing compared to what it feels like to quit." Author unknown

    ""The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will." Vincent T. Lombardi

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonnitro View Post
    But are you taking the aspirin on every ride?
    I suppose for the peace of mind that it's better to have it and don't need it, than need it an not have it. With my family history of heart disease, is not a question of if I will have heart disease, but when.

    OTOH, the electrophysiologist who saw me the day after I posted that to which you replied, told me it's not Atrial Tachycardia, but Sinus Tachycardia, which is normal on athletes and people who exercise, when they're exercising. It's not, however, normal when the body is at rest. So, she recommended I watch my HR when at rest and to only take the Toprol, as needed after a ride, especially if my HR does not go below 100 BPM within a reasonable time. When I asked her to define "reasonable," she said 3 - 4 hours after the ride.
    "If you accept the expectations of others, especially negative ones, then you never will change the outcome." Michael Jordan

    "Pain is nothing compared to what it feels like to quit." Author unknown

    ""The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will." Vincent T. Lombardi

  8. #33
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    Hospital in Marathalli

    The measurement of heart rate is used by medical professionals to assist in the diagnosis and tracking of medical conditions. It is also used by individuals, such as athletes, who are interested in monitoring their heart rate to gain maximum efficiency from their training.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by paste View Post
    The measurement of heart rate is used by medical professionals to assist in the diagnosis and tracking of medical conditions. It is also used by individuals, such as athletes, who are interested in monitoring their heart rate to gain maximum efficiency from their training.
    Wow; there's something I didn't know
    "If you accept the expectations of others, especially negative ones, then you never will change the outcome." Michael Jordan

    "Pain is nothing compared to what it feels like to quit." Author unknown

    ""The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will." Vincent T. Lombardi

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJP View Post
    Wow; there's something I didn't know
    ha ha, no joke. from a one-post poster.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJP View Post
    I looked at this website: Joe Friel - Determining your LTHR
    to get an insight on LTHR. Did a ride yesterday morning, but after re-reading what Joe says, I may have not done things correctly. The way I interpret what he writes, there are two contingencies he doesn't mention, but that presumably he assumes; a warm up period and appropriate time for pre-exercise nutrition to metabolize.

    I ride every other day in the morning. If I was to ride after work, I'd be up past midnight. So, I get up at 4:30 to ride in the morning and I'm usually out of the house by 4:45; ride for an hour and get back home in time to get the family going. I do have a bite to eat before I do my ride, but the interval of time is definitely not enough for it to metabolize. So, I'll do it again this weekend and see what it tells me. Yesterday's ride said my average HR for the 20 mins was 163 and a peak of 175. I simply don't believe yesterday morning's "all out" was a true "all out."
    For a one-hour ride, I wouldn't worry too much about metabolizing. 100 calories (a gel) ought to be plenty. Were you gassed at the end of the 30 minutes? Nothing left in the tank? If yes, you did it correctly. 163 sounds like the realm of reason. Try a couple of intervals (start at 10 min) at that average HR, and see how they feel. And one other piece of advice (you get what you pay for)--moderate your effort to bring your HR up to that level over the course of 2-3 minutes. It's a lagging indicator. The key is dialing in your exertion so it's relatively constant for that time--not an explosion followed by recovery. After 2 minutes or so, you should be breathing hard, but capable of continuing. If the results don't match up, then run the test again (testing is training, and all that). I'd bet the values are pretty close.

    Note: on long rides, hot rides, or both, as you no doubt read, you'll get hot and or a little dehydrated over time and HR will creep up b/c the heart is beating faster to cool the body.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrumpole View Post
    For a one-hour ride, I wouldn't worry too much about metabolizing. 100 calories (a gel) ought to be plenty. Were you gassed at the end of the 30 minutes? Nothing left in the tank? If yes, you did it correctly. 163 sounds like the realm of reason. Try a couple of intervals (start at 10 min) at that average HR, and see how they feel. And one other piece of advice (you get what you pay for)--moderate your effort to bring your HR up to that level over the course of 2-3 minutes. It's a lagging indicator. The key is dialing in your exertion so it's relatively constant for that time--not an explosion followed by recovery. After 2 minutes or so, you should be breathing hard, but capable of continuing. If the results don't match up, then run the test again (testing is training, and all that). I'd bet the values are pretty close.

    Note: on long rides, hot rides, or both, as you no doubt read, you'll get hot and or a little dehydrated over time and HR will creep up b/c the heart is beating faster to cool the body.
    Actually, I had a perfect chance last Sunday. Rode to a friend's house 8.5 miles east from mine, to do a short training ride (for him) for March's Tour de Cure. Winds were straight out of the east between 15 - 20 (with the gust factor). Total ride time to his house was 38 minutes, with the first 10 going east and south, middle 20 going east and last 8 going south again. Avg HR for the first 10 mins was 147 and for 20 of the 24 mins going east, 179. I coasted most of the last 8 minutes because I had almost nothing left.

    I had an egg white omelette with wheat toast and coffee about 45 minutes before the ride. I'm going to give it another take just for the sake of checking, double checking and then doing it again (habits learned in flight school do die hard) and see what happens.
    Last edited by RickJP; 12-16-2011 at 07:41 AM.
    "If you accept the expectations of others, especially negative ones, then you never will change the outcome." Michael Jordan

    "Pain is nothing compared to what it feels like to quit." Author unknown

    ""The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will." Vincent T. Lombardi

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    Hoping the best for you RickJP, I hope it all gets sorted out.
    Having gone through similar issues with my heart and heart rate, etc. I can relate.
    I had a 4x bypass in March after the angiogram I had led to 100% heart block,
    I had a 4x bypass (I was on an external pace maker for 2 days) then had open heart surgery.
    After the surgery, I went into Atrial Fibrillation. Went on Amiodarone and the Afib passed while I was still in the hospital.

    Started cycling 3 weeks after the surgery, and after I got stronger, when I would hit around 130 BPM I would go into rhythm related heart block, basically I would go from 130 to 75, or every other beat. Then back to a normal rhythm in about a minute or so.
    First my Cardiologist took me off Coreg and it got better, I could hit say 140 before the rhythm related heart block kicked in.
    Then he took me off Amiodarone and eventfully the rhythm related heart block went away.
    That lasted for 4 months or so.
    Then I started having PVC -s Premature Ventricular contractions, so the Cardiologist put me back on Coreg 3.125 twice a day.
    That did not do much so he increased the Coreg to 6.25 twice a day, but warned that this could bring back the rhythm related heart block.
    Yep, it did, on a 50 miler last Saturday, after the last climb of the day, at around 30 miles, my BPM went from 150 to 77.
    Had to have the group wait until the episode passed, about 1 minute.
    Finished the ride, called the doc on Tuedsday, and he backed off the Coreg to 3.125 2x a day,
    I rode last night and hit 151 BPM, and so it does seem better.
    To me the most important piece of equipment I own is my HRM, I monitor my BPM very closely and I know not to push it.

    I believe you are doing all the right things.

    Good luck!

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by CABGPatchKid View Post
    Hoping the best for you RickJP, I hope it all gets sorted out.
    Having gone through similar issues with my heart and heart rate, etc. I can relate.
    I had a 4x bypass in March after the angiogram I had led to 100% heart block,
    I had a 4x bypass (I was on an external pace maker for 2 days) then had open heart surgery.
    After the surgery, I went into Atrial Fibrillation. Went on Amiodarone and the Afib passed while I was still in the hospital.

    Started cycling 3 weeks after the surgery, and after I got stronger, when I would hit around 130 BPM I would go into rhythm related heart block, basically I would go from 130 to 75, or every other beat. Then back to a normal rhythm in about a minute or so.
    First my Cardiologist took me off Coreg and it got better, I could hit say 140 before the rhythm related heart block kicked in.
    Then he took me off Amiodarone and eventfully the rhythm related heart block went away.
    That lasted for 4 months or so.
    Then I started having PVC -s Premature Ventricular contractions, so the Cardiologist put me back on Coreg 3.125 twice a day.
    That did not do much so he increased the Coreg to 6.25 twice a day, but warned that this could bring back the rhythm related heart block.
    Yep, it did, on a 50 miler last Saturday, after the last climb of the day, at around 30 miles, my BPM went from 150 to 77.
    Had to have the group wait until the episode passed, about 1 minute.
    Finished the ride, called the doc on Tuedsday, and he backed off the Coreg to 3.125 2x a day,
    I rode last night and hit 151 BPM, and so it does seem better.
    To me the most important piece of equipment I own is my HRM, I monitor my BPM very closely and I know not to push it.

    I believe you are doing all the right things.

    Good luck!
    Thanks CABGPatchKid. Looks like you're doing the right things as well. Stay strong!
    "If you accept the expectations of others, especially negative ones, then you never will change the outcome." Michael Jordan

    "Pain is nothing compared to what it feels like to quit." Author unknown

    ""The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will." Vincent T. Lombardi

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    Aerobic training via max Heart Rate and "Grey Zone"

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_Simmons/RST View Post
    Depends on what your actual HRmax is. Age based formula are population averages and are not applicable to any individual.

    Would you buy trousers based only the average size for all people and adding 1 cm for every 5 years over 20 to the waistline?
    Hi All, I am a rookie on this forum so please forgive me if I am doing this wrong, but I have a question regarding heart rates and training as well and would appreciate anyone who could direct me....................
    I am fairly new to all of this and am looking for some advice with respect to proper aerobic base training. I am 45yoa, 5' 11" tall, 205 lbs and have been riding recreationally for about 5 years. I have decided to start club racing and am undergoing winter indoor training now primarily with the spinervals series. I plan to make TT the discipline of favor as at my weight, I will be no Andy Schlek in the hills. I just did a lactate threshold test (OUCH!) and estimated my LT to be at a heart rate of 167. From various charts and graphs my max HR would be 185; although I have never seen anything on my HR monitor above 174. It may be that my heart rate is generally lower by genetic design and I can accept this, but it does create confusion in figuring out my training zones. Troy Jacobsen preaches to keep your HR 10+ beats below the LT for aerobic base building or about 80% of your max HR. It is also important to avoid the 80-85% grey zone where you are essentially in no man's land (to hard for aerobic and too easy for LT improvement) 80% of my max HR would be no higher than 148. 10-15 beats below my LT is 152-157, which would put me right in the grey zone that I would like to avoid. Can anyone tell me where I should be?
    I do not want to waste time on the trainer and be in the grey zone, but need to be assured that I am indeed working hard enough to get the benefits of the aerobic base that I am looking for. I am not afraid to work harder, but want the work that I put in to be of benefit.
    I would appreciate any feedback or advice that anyone can offer!
    Thanks!

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cervelo S-5 View Post
    I do not want to waste time on the trainer and be in the grey zone, but need to be assured that I am indeed working hard enough to get the benefits of the aerobic base that I am looking for. I am not afraid to work harder, but want the work that I put in to be of benefit.
    I would appreciate any feedback or advice that anyone can offer!
    Thanks!
    The "grey" zone you talk about is a myth. Positive aerobic adaptations come from training at all levels above recovery riding. It may be that you haven't seen a HR above 174 because you haven't ridden in such a manner to induce HRmax (you mentioned being a recreational rider mostly). It's also not uncommon for HR response to be different indoors than outdoors.

    Don't sweat too much the precise HR. Ride hard enough that you are working, and if you begin to do some interval type work, then HR is only a guide for efforts longer than 15-20-min. Short efforts need to be ridden based on exertion level, power or speed if on a trainer. HR lags too much and the subsequent cardiac drift makes it not such a great guide for shorter harder work.

    Instead be more concerned with gradually increasing your workload through both the amount of training and the proportion of work done at higher intensities.

    Keep it enjoyable too.

  17. #42
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    Thank-you Alex! I don't get too hung up on the whole HR thing, but found it a little confusing that where I was supposed to be differed depending on what ideal I used. For me to maintain 2-2.5 hrs at 85% on the trainer would not be that big a deal at my current level. I traditionally ride rolling hills to steeper climbs (7.5-9.5%) where I live and my HR usually will hang out in the 160-165 range. The LT test I just did averaged 167 for the final 20 min and 165 for the full 30 min. The max I saw during this test was 170which would probably be in the 90% area where I feel I should be for a TT. Although I do not have a great power meter I do have on that is supposed to be calibrated for the trainer I have and noted that when I was working at that 90% level, I could maintain around 345 watts. I tend to watch the relative speed on the computer and lie to be between 35-40 km/h when I train for distance. If the Grey Zone is a myth, then I will allow myself to get my HR a little higher on my aerobic days while still trying to keep it aerobic. I understand that the Max HR test is falling out of favor as it is being percieved as a bit risky especially if there is a unknown underlying cardiac condition. I was considering dong one in the next couple of weeks, but am unsure that it would be of any benefit of knowledge to my training given the percieved effort I endured during the LT test. Do you have any thoughts on this?

  18. #43
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    It's very hard to train for any length of time at anything but aerobic levels, you have no choice really. Once you begin to use anaerobic work capacity, the time you can continue to ride at that level for is significantly limited (reduces to minutes). IOW you'll be forced to slow down anyway to a pace that is wholly aerobic "pay as you go" level.

    Just start where you are, and adjust from there. You'll find out soon enough if you can or can't go harder. Just give yourself a bit of a mix of efforts.

    If you are overweight, have a history of cardiac issues, are/were a smoker or are in any way concerned about doing hard efforts you should consult your doctor/physician before embarking on any exercise regime.

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