Here's a training question for everyone - Page 2
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  1. #26
    extremely biased
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    Surely we're not looking for the answer as simple as "train the limiter"?



    Starnut

  2. #27
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    Probably not but you've got to identify the athlete's limitations for a given event if you're going to train him to win it. You could at least contribute something to the discussion if you're going to post starnut...

  3. #28
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    First, let me say I think this is a very odd question. I'm not sure I would tailor 7 months of training to prepare for a one race. Obviously the training will help for all races so why even add that to the question.

    In races like these, I don't think FTP is a very accurate indicator of success. Is a guy with a W/KG of 5.1 at FTP any better off than a guy with a W/KG of 5?

    FTP is just of many factors that will determine who is successful in a race like this. I think way too many people get caught up with FTP and get lost when that doesn't turn into results.
    Granted, raising FTP is basically always a good thing and specific FTP training is some of the most efficient training you can do.

    In addition to what others have said, I think it is important to know if this race is just a local P/1/2 race on a hard course or a NRC level race. If it is a local race then positioning isn't as important and tactics are very important. If it is a NRC level race then positioning will be very important and you probably won't have to worry about tactics too much.

    Regardless, this isn't a TT so there is much more to the race than just going as hard as you can. If the riders are serious about doing well in this race then racing in other hard road races with STRONG fields beforehand will be very important.

  4. #29
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    The obvious, sensible answer: Coach both guys exactly the same.

  5. #30
    Cycling Coach
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewie13
    FTP is just of many factors that will determine who is successful in a race like this. I think way too many people get caught up with FTP and get lost when that doesn't turn into results.
    Which is why FTP/sustainable aerobic power is the most important physiological determinant of success in endurance cycling. Can't win if you don't arrive at the finish in good shape (or alone).

    There are of course other factors:
    physical (forces acting against us)
    proficiency (execution, skills, tactics, strategy)
    planning / performance management/modelling (getting training correct, planning prep, tapers etc)
    psychological

    So from a physiological standpoint, address sustainable aerobic power and anything else specific to the demands of the goal event(s). How you address aerobic power can however differ depending on a rider's current state of fitness, training history and their physiological profile.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_Simmons/RST
    Which is why FTP/sustainable aerobic power is the most important physiological determinant of success in endurance cycling. Can't win if you don't arrive at the finish in good shape (or alone).

    There are of course other factors:
    physical (forces acting against us)
    proficiency (execution, skills, tactics, strategy)
    planning / performance management/modelling (getting training correct, planning prep, tapers etc)
    psychological

    So from a physiological standpoint, address sustainable aerobic power and anything else specific to the demands of the goal event(s). How you address aerobic power can however differ depending on a rider's current state of fitness, training history and their physiological profile.

    I know and agree completely. Look at at all the replies here and basically none of them address those other factors.

    It really should be common sense at this point that you need to focus on sustainable aerobic power but as you race at higher and higher levels, the gaps between differences in riders sustainable aerobic power become smaller and smaller so you need much more than just a high FTP to be successful at races other than TTs.

  7. #32
    but thinking about it
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewie13
    I know and agree completely. Look at at all the replies here and basically none of them address those other factors.

    It really should be common sense at this point that you need to focus on sustainable aerobic power but as you race at higher and higher levels, the gaps between differences in riders sustainable aerobic power become smaller and smaller so you need much more than just a high FTP to be successful at races other than TTs.
    I think that none of the other posts address those other factors because there's a general sense that the two racers described in the original post aren't even in the ballpark (to mix sporting metaphors) for "be[ing] successful" in the race and field described. They need to put themselves in a position to be able to race it before the question of how to win it is even relevant. The original post skipped the first issue and went right to the second.

    Mark Cavendish has all those "other factors" in spades, but if you asked how he should train to win a mountain-top finish in a grand tour, people would probably say he should work on his sustainable aerobic power.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undecided
    I think that none of the other posts address those other factors because there's a general sense that the two racers described in the original post aren't even in the ballpark (to mix sporting metaphors) for "be[ing] successful" in the race and field described. They need to put themselves in a position to be able to race it before the question of how to win it is even relevant. The original post skipped the first issue and went right to the second.

    Mark Cavendish has all those "other factors" in spades, but if you asked how he should train to win a mountain-top finish in a grand tour, people would probably say he should work on his sustainable aerobic power.
    Valid point.

  9. #34
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    Well said guys, I think at this point everything has now been covered,
    we just need Nitro to tell us how he plans to train these 2 guys, he has time up his sleve to plan a few similar training races to see how there progressing.
    Not sure what prompted me to reply to this thread as I knew it would cause contrversey and everyone is an expert....
    including me But now l'm hooked on the scenario and need to follow this thread
    I have a sneaky suspicion Nitro might be the sprinter profile

  10. #35
    but thinking about it
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    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonnitro
    Hypothetical. Think of it as a test. I'll post what I would do probably in a few days.
    OK, "a few days" is up.

  11. #36
    Impulse Athletic Coaching
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undecided
    OK, "a few days" is up.
    Wow, completely forgot about this thread. Here is my short answer.

    Realistically, neither "seasoned" rider can raise their FTP from 300 to 350 by this race. The climber should focus on more VO2max and anaerobic work (which respond fairly quickly). Then, hope the climb is short enough, and raced slow enough, that he can hang on or catch up to the lead group after each time up. Some good tactics and a lot of luck could really only help him with the race. If possible, he should drop any more weight to raise the FTP as high as possible.

    The sprinter is really hopeless for this race, so there is no real good answer on how to coach him. Finishing on a 7min climb wouldn't suit him at all. Best bet, if he wanted to do as well as possible, would be to focus on FTP work, some VO2, and less on his anaerobic ability, which presumably comes quickly/naturally. Then coach him to feel good about helping a teammate

    After finding out each rider's exact power profile, train the weaknesses (which is obvious). One could guess, however, that the climber would need to work anaerobic/VO2, while the sprinter needs to work FTP/VO2 to do well in the same hilly, one-day race.

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