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Thread: Honey vs Gel

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCharmer
    You may be absolutely right, but in honey production it is all about moisture content. We have to have our honey dry down to about 15-17% moisture content, the level bees will dry down nectar to when the weather is not too wet. Above 20% moisture, and we'll get spoilage in the honey as the yeast can grow. I don't think the sugar content hasn't changed much in that small range of moisture, but yeast and bacteria can begin growing.

    Regarding botulism in kids, I understand the idea, but I'm pretty sure there are papers out there showing no difference in botulism rates in the US (where the gov is warning that honey for kids < 2 years old is dangerous) and those in western Europe (where there are no warnings and small children are regularly given honey). I would guess there would be more botulism spores on that nook that was just rescued from the kitchen floor than there are in a couple of tablespoons of honey, but that's just a guess. .

    The reason you're getting growth with higher concentrations is because the amount of water dictates the sugar concentration. If you add a teaspoon of sugar to a gallon of water, the concentration of sugar is very low. If you add that same amount of sugar to an ounce of water, the concentration of sugar is very high. So as your water content gets higher, it means there is less osmotic pressure on the contaminating cells and they are able to grow. Apparently, the line at which that occurs is about 20% water. Clostridial spores will survive any concentration of sugar that would be found in honey (though they won't germinate and grow at such concentrations).

    As far as the incidence of infant botulism, I got the following from the journal, American Family Physician:

    Ninety percent of the world's cases of infant botulism are diagnosed in the United States, mainly because of physician awareness. As of 1996, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has documented more than 1,400 cases. The prevalence of infant botulism has surpassed that of food-borne and wound botulism. It is estimated that more than 250 cases of infant botulism occur in the United States each year, but many go unrecognized. California, Utah and Pennsylvania have the highest incidence; nearly 50 percent of all cases are reported in California.

    Soil and honey contamination are the two recognized sources of botulinum spores. Extensive research has been conducted to identify other sources. In California in the late 1970s, researchers analyzed 555 samples of soil, household dust, cereals, baby foods, canned goods, sugar, corn syrup, honey and commercial formulas. Except in the samples of honey and soil, no spores were detected. In a study performed in New York, no spores were found in any of the 236 products that were tested. According to microbiologic testing, up to 25 percent of honey products have been found to contain spores. A history of honey consumption is seen in 15 percent of the botulism cases reported to the CDC. As a result, honey should not be given to infants younger than one year.

  2. #27
    leon2982
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    Gel Flask

    Quote Originally Posted by e34john
    In little plastic bears!



    ^^
    That was an interesting bit of info on the honey and spores.
    I use gel flasks. I mix the honey, molasses, and sea salt right in the flask. Works great. I did a century last month and went thru one full flask and only a couple bites of banana the whole way. I can really feel the energy up-tick from the honey. And with the molasses / sea salt providing electrolytes I only carry water with me.

    Here is the recipe I base my mix on:

    7 and 1/3 tablespoons of honey
    3/4 teaspoons of blackstrap molasses
    1/10 teaspoons (just shy of 1/8 tsp) of table salt

  3. #28
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    Honey's Glycemic Index 55
    Dextrose Glycemic Index 100
    Just sayin

  4. #29
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    Assos makes some really great hive kits if you're into curating your own artisanal, Swiss honey-gels. starting at $2500 for a wooden box and 2 bees it's not a deal, but it will set you apart from the poor people in your group ride, which i believe is more important than riding anyway.

    no, but seriously i've oft considered using honey but like many others it makes my throat burn a bit and since i'm kind of a thirsty fella to begin with i just keep big boxes of clif shots in my pantry. strangely enough Lagavulin doesn't make my throat burn at all.
    Last edited by ellipsis212; 11-17-2010 at 12:06 PM.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hula Hoop
    Honey's Glycemic Index 55
    Dextrose Glycemic Index 100
    Just sayin
    say more please...is the higher number better or worse?
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  6. #31
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    I thought honey was mainly simple sugars, including fructose. Energy gels include more complex, easily absorbed carbohydrates (maltodextrin) that, from what I understand, don't give you the upset stomach.

    It seems there is a reason why not so many people chug honey on a training ride.

    Here is a bunch of links.... whatever the truth about honey may be

    http://www.cptips.com/gelown.htm
    http://www.organiclifestylemagazine....ternatives.php
    http://www.jibbering.com/sports/gels.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey
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  7. #32
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    Why not just pour a little diluted real grape juice into your water bottles and be done.

    There's nothing magical about any of these supplements or honey for that matter.

    You could grab some twinkies and ding dongs and go out and ride if you wanted and do just fine. You could pour some table sugar into your water bottle and also accomplish the same things.

    You need calories, you don't want too much or too little and you don't want to make yourself sick. The rest of marketing.

    I always liked LeMonds view on nutrition, he thought a lot of people went overboard worrying about every little detail.

  8. #33
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    Nothing magical, but honey is a lot cheaper.

  9. #34
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    No corn syrup is a whole lot cheaper than honey.

  10. #35
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    all things being equal, i'd much rather go the natural route with the honey. u can rationalize that it all ultimately breaks down as carbohydrates but i'm the guy who only shops around the edges of the supermarket and avoid processed foods and HFCS like the plague.

    old skool? yep probably..but it makes me feel better sticking with foods that don't have to be put together in a lab somewhere.
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  11. #36
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    hfcs?
    the chinese sell it in the honey?
    to avoid cramps, I guess by taking lots of water and electrolytes, what can I put in the water?
    molasses, salt, and honey?
    how much salt?
    I'm going to search for "best homemade gel" and see what I get. This surely has been discussed.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by hummina shadeeba
    hfcs? = High Fructose Corn Syrup
    the chinese sell it in the honey?
    to avoid cramps, I guess by taking lots of water and electrolytes, what can I put in the water?
    molasses, salt, and honey?
    how much salt?
    I'm going to search for "best homemade gel" and see what I get. This surely has been discussed.
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  13. #38
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    Actually, most of the honey in stores has HFCS in it to "cut" the honey so that it is cheaper.

    And your body digest HFCS the same way as sucrose (both are glucose and fructose). (FACT).
    "The lower limit of dietary carbohydrate compatible with life apparently is zero, provided that adequate amounts of protein and fat are consumed."......http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?reco...10490&page=275

    Feel free to PM me nutrition questions. I will answer them if I have time.....

  14. #39
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    im with nyvram. I only buy raw honey, from a local farmer, so no HFCS cut in.

    If our body really process HFCS the same as other sugars why is corn showing up in our hair and body composition?

    Thanks for the tip with honey and molasses in a gel flask. I was trying to figure out a good way to carry some on a ride. thought keeping a little bear in my pocket would be laughed at.

  15. #40
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    I know this conversation has taken a twist, but I'll just throw this in. This weekend I had a flask with 1/2 honey, 1/2 hammer gel, and a couple drops of vanilla in it. I was dying on a hill and took a hit off the flask. The honey and hammer really wasn't mixed well, so I got mainly honey. 30 seconds later I was back to normal. I could really tell the boost.

    ~C

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMan
    I know this conversation has taken a twist, but I'll just throw this in. This weekend I had a flask with 1/2 honey, 1/2 hammer gel, and a couple drops of vanilla in it. I was dying on a hill and took a hit off the flask. The honey and hammer really wasn't mixed well, so I got mainly honey. 30 seconds later I was back to normal. I could really tell the boost.

    ~C
    I can tell you that any carbohydrate is likely to have the same effect, even non-sweet carbohydrates like maltodextrin.

    There is evidence that we have sensors in our mouth (most likely on our tongue) that send a signal to the brain, activating pleasure centers, thus lowering RPE, before the substrate is even in the blood stream.

    To complicate matters though, (and further off topic of honey vs gel) is the role of miniscule sublingual absorption of glucose and its potential effect on the brain and RPE.......
    "The lower limit of dietary carbohydrate compatible with life apparently is zero, provided that adequate amounts of protein and fat are consumed."......http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?reco...10490&page=275

    Feel free to PM me nutrition questions. I will answer them if I have time.....

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattlikeshockey
    If our body really process HFCS the same as other sugars why is corn showing up in our hair and body composition?

    Thanks for the tip with honey and molasses in a gel flask. I was trying to figure out a good way to carry some on a ride. thought keeping a little bear in my pocket would be laughed at.
    What do you mean "corn showing up in our hair and body composition". You know that you are what you eat literally right? The carbon (actual molecules) from food are the same ones that get stored or metabolized.......

    So you have corn, cow, pig, chicken, wheat, oxygen, water, green beans, etc, in your hair and your body composition.

    What is your point?
    "The lower limit of dietary carbohydrate compatible with life apparently is zero, provided that adequate amounts of protein and fat are consumed."......http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?reco...10490&page=275

    Feel free to PM me nutrition questions. I will answer them if I have time.....

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdeeer
    I can tell you that any carbohydrate is likely to have the same effect, even non-sweet carbohydrates like maltodextrin.

    There is evidence that we have sensors in our mouth (most likely on our tongue) that send a signal to the brain, activating pleasure centers, thus lowering RPE, before the substrate is even in the blood stream.

    To complicate matters though, (and further off topic of honey vs gel) is the role of miniscule sublingual absorption of glucose and its potential effect on the brain and RPE.......
    Very interesting and now that you post that I remember reading/hearing something about how just the act of drinking an energy drink might give you a boost (before it's even had a chance to be absorbed into the body).

    ~C

  19. #44
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    It's been said that simply tasting something sweet will trick the body into releasing more energy. Something about the survival mechanisms we have.

    On that note Gels works well for me.. I love honey and have considered getting a flask to make my own gel.. Might have to sooner than later and see how it works. Tons of recipes out there too. Hell.. take some honey.. some strawberry jelly, some salt and mix it up with a bit of water and you'll have enough energy to get through anything.
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  20. #45
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    I just tried it this past weekend. Used mostly honey (without HFCS) and a little bit of green tea to cut it + some sea salt and buckwheat honey. Didn't taste bad, didn't bonk and didn't throw up. A winner in my book.
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  21. #46
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    How are you all taking honey on a ride?

    I like honey, but not sure how you are taking it on a ride?

  22. #47
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    Has anyone tried bee pollen or royal jelly? Any benefits?

  23. #48
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    Oh, they put the beehive in their camelbaks and put a straw in it and suck on it when they need some honey. Also that way they ride fast so the bees don't sting them. How long have you been here? Go ask hubby...haha lol
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by louise View Post
    How are you all taking honey on a ride?
    I like honey, but not sure how you are taking it on a ride?
    You can buy re-usable "gel flasks" for your homebrew energy mix.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by black_box View Post
    You can buy re-usable "gel flasks" for your homebrew energy mix.

    Thank you.




    Quote Originally Posted by evs View Post
    Oh, they put the beehive in their camelbaks and put a straw in it and suck on it when they need some honey. Also that way they ride fast so the bees don't sting them. How long have you been here? Go ask hubby...haha lol

    So, I assume you are, what, 13?

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